What's your view on True-Name Nemesis?

[Kenshin]

The better question would be: "Why would we keep this card in the format?" I mean, I don't see any reasons.

That is probably the most useless question you can ask in this context. Why should we keep any strong cards in the format? Why should we keep Tarmogoyf, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Restoration Angel, Maze of Ith, Counterspell, Mishra's Workshop, Preordain or any other card in the format? Either you find good reasons why it should go (which I think there aren't enough) or accept it. Most arguments as to why it should go so far are premature and made because people are too lazy to adapt to it.


Almost every Deck can or does already incorporate cards that easily beat TNN. Toxic Deluge comes to mind, because you do not even have to wipe your own guys with it. And since you are already playing black, you probably have tutors. It can be countered if you are not in black. And there is hardly a relevant deck in our format that does not play counters and/or black. Golgari Charm is a flexible and very good answer too. If you can not make room for good answers to one card in 100 you seem to hate so much, then your deck must be really badly designed.

And lastly Wasser reasoning with the cost is plain bullshit. I can not put it any other way. This Format requires several cards that are a lot more expensive. Tarmogoyf is a must if you play green. Jace, the Mind Sculptor is a staple in blue Decks. Fetches cost 30-80€ and you need several. Duals are not cheap either. And you are against a single card that costs about 30-40€? You must be out of your mind even trying to approach this matter from the financial side.

[Tiggupiru]

The better question would be: "Why would we keep this card in the format?" I mean, I don't see any reasons.

That is probably the most useless question you can ask in this context. Why should we keep any strong cards in the format? Why should we keep Tarmogoyf, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Restoration Angel, Maze of Ith, Counterspell, Mishra's Workshop, Preordain or any other card in the format?

I would argue that questions are never useless, but I guess if one doesn't understand the question and get worked up because of it, is a corner case that never occurred to me.

We keep the cards you mentioned in the format because they are keeping some of the decks alive. They are also fun to play and interactive. TNN is none of those. The reason why I asked the question is to see if anybody feels the TNN gives a new deck to the format, or makes a marginal deck more playable. The answer is probably no.

Almost every Deck can or does already incorporate cards that easily beat TNN. Toxic Deluge comes to mind, because you do not even have to wipe your own guys with it. And since you are already playing black, you probably have tutors. It can be countered if you are not in black. And there is hardly a relevant deck in our format that does not play counters and/or black. Golgari Charm is a flexible and very good answer too. If you can not make room for good answers to one card in 100 you seem to hate so much, then your deck must be really badly designed.

What is the probability you run into True-Name Nemesis in a random tournament? Well, let's try to give an estimation: First of all, your opponent should be blue. So no 4c goodstuff that dominated the last GP, no mono red, WW, Pattern, Naya... etc. is going to play it. This eliminates a good portion of the players right off the bat. Next, the opposing blue deck must not be combo or some flavor of control. Stax or Academy ramp for example probably don't care enough to run it and any combo player is going to laugh their heart out if somebody would propose they'd run the card. They must not play Oath of Druids either because it's pretty miserable Oath target. Again, we eliminated even more people.

What this basically means is that it is pretty unlikely to play against a deck that even plays the card. Furthermore, your average tournament HL game probably lasts somewhere in the ball park of 10 turns. I am going to go ahead and say 12 just to be on the safer side. Again, we are not assuming control mirror as those rarely come down on the TNN anyways provided those the decks even run it.

That gives us: 12 turns + 7 opening cards + possible library manipulation means that you see ~25 cards in the longer game. And that is being generous. What this essentially means is that not only is the players playing the TNN a significant minority, but even in longer games you see only about a quarter of the opposing deck.

In conclusion, I would argue that going out of your way to play cards just to deal with TNN is in fact what you described as "badly designed" seeing how unlikely it is for you to face it. Running subpar cards just to give yourself an out in a very narrow situation is not what I call "too lazy to adapt", it's called "not being a moron".

[Vazdru]

It can be countered if you are not in black.

sorry, but this point doesn't make any sense to me at all

unban Ancestral Recall..no problem, you can counter it or have any discard spell on the play ...come on, I'm pretty sure you do better than this

[Zerc]

Vote for A.
Control Decks need TNN for Aggro/Midrange Decks and for a randow win condition.

[Kenshin]

@Tiggupiru: Most of the cards I mentioned are not needed to keep an archetype alive. They are just plain good or even overpowered. I understand the question but I do not think it helps us in any way because you can ask that of so many cards where the answer just is "because it was printed and is legal in legacy".

It does not give us a new Deck, but which cards do? Usually combo pieces or the much needed card that gives critical mass to a strategy. Aside from that I think that proves your argument invalid. There are a lot of cards that I do not care if they are legal or not. As they are, I play them. TNN is one of them. If it is gone, it is gone but to me the reasoning behind banning it is really problematic.

And then I have to applaud you for giving us the best argument why we should not ban it at all. It is just not that widely played. Thank you for making that point against your case. If you are unlikely to face it and you do not have to adapt to it, why even bother? There is just a really small number of Decks that get thrown off course by Nemesis. For combo and staxx, maybe reanimator it is just another creature that will not manage to race them. For control it ist just another dude to be wrathed away. Only a select few decks can not handle him when he is resolved and is it too much to expect those guys to play around TNN sometimes?

@Vazdru: One is an Instant that costs U which has an effect that can not be counteracted easily, the other costs 1UU, is a creature and can be handled in ways a lot of decks already play. It is hard to play around the one mana Instant which can hit at any time and you can not take away the three cards at ease (I mean the best discard costs BB and is sorcery) but you can be prepared to counter a 1UU creature or wrath him and his peers for 2B or 4CC with card advantage. Softcounters do not lose their value as fast (having 4 mana to pay for mana leak and Ancestral Recall is easy, having 6 for True-Name Nemesis and paying for it is way harder. Having 3 for Anc and counter backup is much easier than having 5 for TNN and backup which would leave you untapped in your own turn anyway). Resolving Vendilion Clique is a lot easier at the same cost.

[Tiggupiru]

And then I have to applaud you for giving us the best argument why we should not ban it at all. It is just not that widely played. Thank you for making that point against your case. If you are unlikely to face it and you do not have to adapt to it, why even bother? There is just a really small number of Decks that get thrown off course by Nemesis. For combo and staxx, maybe reanimator it is just another creature that will not manage to race them. For control it ist just another dude to be wrathed away. Only a select few decks can not handle him when he is resolved and is it too much to expect those guys to play around TNN sometimes?

I knew you were going to counterargument with this. You seemed like the type of guy who likes to treat symptoms and be happy even if the root of the problem persists. Thank you for being predictable.

The reason you see less TNN is bad because now there is no good reason to adapt it being in the metagame. Those games where your opponent do draw it, it just is unfair and boring. Losing those games is practically a robbery: You do everything right from the deckbuilding, deck choice and technical play inside the game, but your opponent had the one card that made it all irrelevant. If there would be some elegant answers it would be fine, but there just isn't. Liliana is practically the only thing that is universally played in decks that the TNN is a nightmare against.

Besides, judging from your argument you are fine having Flash-Hulk in the metagame? I mean, not every deck can play it and some people would still choose to play burn, WW and control despite it being in the format so you wouldn't necessarily play against it in a tournament. The fact that a card is not ubiquitous doesn't mean it is healthy for the format.

And yes, it can be countered. What a great contribution for the discussion. It is on par with the "dies to removal" - argument, which funnily enough, doesn't  apply here, since TNN ignores removal. The thing is, most decks don't really want to keep counters open in the off chance their opponents happen to have the TNN. In most aggro-control decks I would be much happier to advance my own game plan rather than to just assume they even run the damn thing. Again, the scarcity of the card is a big issue as in all the other cases it's just better not to assume they have it and tap out. And those times they do have it, you pretty much lost the only window to interact with it. And while you can counter True-Name Nemesis, one can also play around those counterspells by playing it with protection or wait for you to tap out.

@Tiggupiru: Most of the cards I mentioned are not needed to keep an archetype alive. They are just plain good or even overpowered.

You are correct, I wanted to write "They either keep an archetype alive OR are fun to play and interactive", but got brainfarted.

The interaction is really the key. Jace, TMS is overpowered, but there are numerous ways to interact with it even when you are playing control. True-Name Nemesis just does what ever the controller wants it to do and the other player is just a spectator.

[Vazdru]

@Vazdru: One is an Instant that costs U which has an effect that can not be counteracted easily, the other costs 1UU, is a creature and can be handled in ways a lot of decks already play. It is hard to play around the one mana Instant which can hit at any time and you can not take away the three cards at ease (I mean the best discard costs BB and is sorcery) but you can be prepared to counter a 1UU creature or wrath him and his peers for 2B or 4CC with card advantage. Softcounters do not lose their value as fast (having 4 mana to pay for mana leak and Ancestral Recall is easy, having 6 for True-Name Nemesis and paying for it is way harder. Having 3 for Anc and counter backup is much easier than having 5 for TNN and backup which would leave you untapped in your own turn anyway). Resolving Vendilion Clique is a lot easier at the same cost.

sorry mate, but you haven't understood  

I used an exaggerated and ironic example obviously
maybe following examples show up better how poor your argument is

next try then:

"hey guys, there is no need to ban birthing pod as it can be countered if you are in blue, furthermore red has a lot of options to handle artifacts as white and green can do so too...no need to ban it, every deck is able to handle birthing pod"

"hey, why do you ban survival of the fittest? it can be countered if you are in blue or discarded by inquisition, duress and thoughtseize while playing black...and most competetive decks run blue or black nowadays - spell pierce, spell snare are typically in every blue toolbox, so even if you are on the draw, you have good chances to stop that card before it resolves  - furthermore you can adapt to it your opponents playing this card and you can optimize any deck to keep Survival being toothless...no need to ban it"  

hope you get my point this time ...

imo every half-way reasoner can see that your quoted argument

It can be countered if you are not in black.

is flawed

[MMD]

Perhaps TNN should better get banned to get peace here. As we learned it does not define decks, it is just a 1/100 and only played in a handful of deck types. I don´t like him, I don´t need him and won´t miss him.  Actually I don´t care.

The one thing which really puzzles me over and over again is why these card banning discussions are always the VIP topic in this otherwise -more or less- dead forum.

Use your energy to playtest the not-so-new-anymore-muligan and explore/define the complete new format together. THIS really has a significant effect to the game...

[Payron]

B = ban it

Just one question: Why would we ban Stoneforge Mystic and leave this in the Format. The one is just a small Progenitus and the other turns the game because of card advantage and cheating stuff into the game?!

I played my Ladder end of the year match vs Goblin Pildriver. What do you think wins the izzet mirror?

[Kenshin]

@ Tiggipuru: You are just exaggerating now. Flash-Hulk? Come on man!
And trying to attack me in ad hominem arguments is poor form. I will not answer those.

You and vazdru both seem to not understand what the implication with being counterable or hit by sweepers is. It does not mean the card is bad because it can be removed or countered, it means that most decks do indeed already pack viable answers. That is my point and nothing else. Birthing pod yet again is a different card type and defeats the purpose of the format like survival of the fittest did. I do not have a problem with comparisons but in this game there are a lot more realistic cards to compare it with than those. TNN does not manage to win you a race and it lacks the utility of Pod. And it is not creating an insane position over the course of the next few turns like pod and Survival will usually do.

@Vazdru: Yes, I understood. And I chose to still counterargument it. If you used a silly exaggeration that was not serious, why complain if I answer it? I mean what was your point going to be? Get me to agree to the silly exaggeration and then conclude that I should be against TNN too because I said Anc is OP?

@MMD: I get your point but this would be like giving in to the child at the checkout that wants one of the sweets there. As soon as he gets them once, he wants them every time. I think we are unfortunately reaching a point where it starts to get personal and we fight over positions as both sides brought their arguments and one or the other side just does not see it in the same way and therefore assumes the other side must be wrong. I think the thruth lies in between. I could not care less about TNN being banned or not tbh but I think you can not justify banning it that easily.

[Vazdru]

@Vazdru: Yes, I understood. ... I mean what was your point going to be?

..what have you understood exactly  ...
anyhow let's leave your statement as it is

Almost every Deck can or does already incorporate cards that easily beat TNN. Toxic Deluge comes to mind, because you do not even have to wipe your own guys with it. And since you are already playing black, you probably have tutors. It can be countered if you are not in black. And there is hardly a relevant deck in our format that does not play counters and/or black. Golgari Charm is a flexible and very good answer too. If you can not make room for good answers to one card in 100 you seem to hate so much, then your deck must be really badly designed.

everyone can value your arguments on his own, so did I

as I play Dimir-Tempo many times recently with lots of "so-called" answers for TNN in kind of counters, edicts, tribute to hunger, lili II, Far // Away ...why I'm still not convinced  ...I won quite more games with TNN than lost against it ... so why I bother at all   following your arguments I should be happy, so what's wrong with me?

maybe I dislike that
...as soon TNN has hit the board, counterspells become quite irrelevant so your "so-called" answers ofter reduced near zero (MUC, Izzet-Control)
...you forget the pilot of TNN-decks uses counters and often tutors too, so T1/2 worldly or demonic and T3 TNN with daze or force backup is a random but not only a theoretical scenario of a dumb and silly "game" of magic like even some game-reports here on this board keep records
...since TNN hits the board the game only center around the question "handle, race or die", the rest becomes more or less meaningless most times
... *getting bored of this discussion so just insert your conclusions*...



however we haven't received that clear vote against TNN I hoped for as I only mobilized 9 persons yet to vote against that bug in here:

pro Ban - 9
* Tiggupiru
* Vazdru
* Payron
* goblinpiledriver
* Rei
* Demppa
* Georg B
* haju
* Wasser
(* MDD)

pro Unban - 4
* kenshin
* Zerc
* phyrexianmetal
* ~fenry~
(* MDD)

[Kenshin]

Let's see how we all think about this in three months/half a year. I will play other peoples decks for more test results, as to gather more information.

[berlinballz]

B for Ban.

No interaction, mostly auto win on its own if put on an even board. to me on stoneforge mystic / birthing pod powerlevel. costs uu, but you pay only 3 mana once. wins on its own and if equipped is completely unbeatable.

[W0lf]

A because reasons

[Vazdru]

Let's see how we all think about this in three months/half a year. I will play other peoples decks for more test results, as to gather more information.

wise said
as the hl council gives us probably the time to do so