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What's your view on True-Name Nemesis?

Started by Vazdru, 10-03-2014, 11:28:46 PM

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Vazdru

please let me know what's your view on True-Name Nemesis - thanks in advance!

A = this card should stay a while longer in our format
because ...(random reasons)
True-Name Nemesis is a fair card
blue-based decks might need this to balance the power of 4C BloodMidrange which was the dominating archetype at last gp
True-Name Nemesis gives an impact on the meta to develop and shift
True-Name Nemesis is just not powerful enough to justify a ban
...

B = card should be banned rather sooner than later
because...(random reasons)
True-Name Nemesis is a annoying, misdesigned card (for our format)
True-Name Nemesis leads quite often to random wins
the games center much too often around which player resolves True-Name Nemesis first
the meta drifts to blue-based decks, nearly every deck able to run it will do so, no matter which game-plan it follows
...

feel free to add some more reasons for the one side or the other
Far below the earth
Where the demons hunt the souls of those that sleep
In the city of the Vazdru and the Drin
Where the black flame burns inside the palace fountain.

Kenshin

I know this might not help a lot but I am going to explain my position:

On the one hand it is inherently unfair and unbeatable by some decks but on the other hand it is just one card in 100. There are way worse cards legal in this format and it does not hurt it either. UR Decks can not kill it once it resolved but they have counters. Other decks can not counter it but play sweepers of some sort. It is not that hard to have some catch-all plan against it in your deck. In my experience so far I feel like it is the deck constructors fault for not being able to beat it or making your other matchups so favourable that you can decide to ignore it. If you lose to Nemesis you likely lose to other cards too. Thrun and Geist of Saint-Thraft come to mind. They are slightly different and weaker because Geist can be killed by Pyroclasm and the like and Thrun can't even be countered yet both can be blocked.

At the GP I felt the card was overpowered and format warping. But now I had time to think about it and came to the conclusion that it is not so bad at all. It is a strong card that has to be considered when building a deck and it may be too swingy but I do not see a big enough problem that would call for a banning so far.

So for the time being I would vote A

phyrexianblackmetal

There hasn't ever been a card in Magic I was less sure about than True-Name Nemesis. Control decks usually shouldn't have that much of a problem with it, just like combo decks. Aggressive decks however face a big problem with it. Unless you have evasive creatures or one of the few removal spells that can deal with it without also killing your own creatures (all of which are black as far as I know), its nearly impossible to race, since it can just stall indefinately until its controller has stabilized, at which point it can safely start attacking without ever being blocked. But is that enough to justify banning it? I would say no. It certainly is a very good card that can lead to random wins, but that's also true for other cards that are allowed. It hasn't led to an increase in blue decks played as far as I can tell (let's face it, at least half of the decks played before its release played blue anyway), and not every blue deck plays one. I don't think it has made enough of an impact on the format yet to warrant a ban, but it should certainly be kept on the watchlist. For now, I vote for A

MMD

A - the two replies already sum it up. Keep watch him and blame WotC to print such cards....
Feel free to browse through my MKM account:

http://www.magickartenmarkt.de/index.php?mainPage=showSellerChart&idInfoUser=13199

I also have a huge amount of chinese and japanese foil HL staples not listed yet,  which I would like to downgrade to english foil. Just let me know!

Tiggupiru

B) The problem with TNN is that in games where its abilities do not matter it isn't particularly interesting. And when it does matter, it's unfun and uninteresting as hell. Edicts aren't usually even that great against it, since TNN usually is paired with other creatures and Edicts aren't that great right now, Liliana being the clear exception. On top of this all, it's basically random. One player happens to draw it, it's lights out.

The better question would be: "Why would we keep this card in the format?" I mean, I don't see any reasons.

Vazdru

#5
Quote from: Tiggupiru on 12-03-2014, 08:06:52 PM
The better question would be: "Why would we keep this card in the format?" I mean, I don't see any reasons.

quite true...

B) !

True-Name Nemesis become omnipresent, it is no color staple in basic meaning
all decks able to run it somehow will do so...have a look at mtgpulse and you'll find an easy pattern
no matter which strategy a deck follows TNN never is a bad card-choice as long you are able to assemble UUx somehow..it is just an easy additional win-condition against lots of decks which maybe have a maximum of 2 or 3 outs in their decks to handle that threat in some way
so you find that bug in UW-Control, Izzet-Control, -Midrange, -Aggro, Esper ...so in the most polular decks actually
...I'm quite annoyed forced to play with and against it at least a few month more probably

Quote from: Maqi on 11-03-2014, 12:46:00 PM



   
   Mannheim - Wizard's Well        01.03.2014      1st place      UW Control   
   PKP Highlander February 2014        22.02.2014      1st place      Esper Control   
   Leipziger Highlander Cup I        22.02.2014      1st place      Esper Control   
   ASL Berlin        20.02.2014      1st place      UW Tempo (Aggro Control)   
   PKP Highlander        18.01.2014      1st place      BUG Loam (arguably controllish)   
   PKP Highlander        18.01.2014      2nd place      Esper Control   
   TNM Karlsruhe        07.01.2014      1st place      Izzet Control   
   HL Bielefeld        05.01.2014      1st place      UWRb Control   
   Mannheim        04.01.2014      1st place      UW Control   
   

i hoped for a outcry of people with the same feelings like me ... as last desperate try to convince the one guy or the other that the card is no enrichment for our format but exactly the opposite...

..but become disappointed as the first three posts let me sailing even more against the wind
Far below the earth
Where the demons hunt the souls of those that sleep
In the city of the Vazdru and the Drin
Where the black flame burns inside the palace fountain.

Kenshin

I for one need more time with this card. I understand your concerns and as I stated in my post, my opinion towards TNN changed over the last few months, so all I want is more time to see it in action. The reason it should stay at least for now is that banning cards because they are annoying but not hands down unfair is bad in my opinion. And wether it is unfair or not is something I am not totally sure about right now.

haju

My opinion has not changed, therefore vote for B)

Quote from: haju on 05-01-2014, 11:37:24 AM
Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

True-Name Nemesis, this card is so #@!%$* annoying. It's boring to play with and against. It's the random win out of nowhere. Sorry to be so harsh but this card is a perfect example of a well thought but poorly executed card design. It works for multilayer but in a one on one game it's just stupid.

Wasser


I vote for B. Ich bin für eine Verbannung.

The Pauper aspect: If you dont have much money and new to the format
you should not beeing raped by the guy with the money.

There are a lot of expensive ohter cards you can neutralize
- for example with rdw cards you easyly neuter Duals/cradle/academy but
what can I tell the new player? Join em once you can aford it? Or race it?
I like TNN but there are not enough cheap solutions in the format.



GoblinPiledriver

B = card should be banned rather sooner than later
because...
True-Name Nemesis is a annoying, misdesigned card (for our format)
True-Name Nemesis leads quite often to random wins


It's obvious that the card is designed for multiplayer games. That it's legal in Legacy is a critical design error which will be deleted by a ban earlier or later.
Our format highlander would be better balanced if more such cards would be banned. The less overpowered cards are staples the more slots are free in decks for strategic individual deck building.

In this form the card is a one sided Sulfuric Vortex for 3 damage. A card doesn't get balanced because there are hate cards against this special card. A card is only balanced if it's powerlevel is equal to other similar cards.
Throw enough goblins at any problem and it should go away. At the very least, there'll be fewer goblins.

MMD

To clarify my vote:

TNN is a very powerful card but there are strategies which are simply superior then putting 3 power for 3 on the field (=combo & control). Sure aggro & midrange have a hard time to fight TNN but there are good cards out there which can "solve him". There are even some scenarios/decks where you can ignore TNN due to evasion & reach.

Imo TNN is even not an auto include in every blue deck. Combo, Staxx and Oath-Control do not want him and also UWx control decks mostly play him as "monster block" and "walker killer" but cannot rely on him as win option due to the low damage output.

IF banning is made also because of the reason "unfun" I would definitely vote for B because TNN is terribly boring, non-interactive and badly designed but then we also have some other cards to discuss on (e.g. Oath).

Finally I have to admit that I have not played enough with/against TNN to make my final evaluation on it, that's why I would like to have him on the watch list for another season.
Feel free to browse through my MKM account:

http://www.magickartenmarkt.de/index.php?mainPage=showSellerChart&idInfoUser=13199

I also have a huge amount of chinese and japanese foil HL staples not listed yet,  which I would like to downgrade to english foil. Just let me know!

Georg B


Demppa

#12
B. There are several decks that can't interact with him at all or have to add sub-par answers just for that specific card. I don't think that's healthy.

Quote from: Tiggupiru on 12-03-2014, 08:06:52 PM
The better question would be: "Why would we keep this card in the format?" I mean, I don't see any reasons.
qft

~Fenry~

Quote from: MMD on 13-03-2014, 07:29:19 PM
To clarify my vote:

TNN is a very powerful card but there are strategies which are simply superior then putting 3 power for 3 on the field (=combo & control). Sure aggro & midrange have a hard time to fight TNN but there are good cards out there which can "solve him". There are even some scenarios/decks where you can ignore TNN due to evasion & reach.

Imo TNN is even not an auto include in every blue deck. Combo, Staxx and Oath-Control do not want him and also UWx control decks mostly play him as "monster block" and "walker killer" but cannot rely on him as win option due to the low damage output.

IF banning is made also because of the reason "unfun" I would definitely vote for B because TNN is terribly boring, non-interactive and badly designed but then we also have some other cards to discuss on (e.g. Oath).

Finally I have to admit that I have not played enough with/against TNN to make my final evaluation on it, that's why I would like to have him on the watch list for another season.


Thats absolut my opinion, too!! I think we can't ban a card just because its unfun and not interaktive. In addition it hasn't such a big impact in our format as it has on Legacy. Just because its 1/100 in Highlander and 4/60 in Legacy...
Vote: A

Rei

B is for BAN, there's no interacting with the card.