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Author Topic: Canadian Highlander [Viclander]    (Read 9940 times)
Tabris
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« on: 16-01-2014, 02:37:29 PM »

Hey guys

I want to draw your attention to another highlander format. Its called Viclander (since the community is located in Victoria, Canada) and their highlander format is pretty similiar to ours but they use a point list instead of a banlist and they play with P9.

I collected some information and want to share this with you.

General Info [Point List/History]: http://canadianhighlander.wordpress.com/

Video about their recent T8 Tournament made by me (I compare their lists with ours): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGaywD6WQbg

Twitch Channel [They recorded their T8 tournament]: http://de.twitch.tv/yjmagic/profile/pastBroadcasts
« Last Edit: 16-01-2014, 02:41:07 PM by Tabris » Logged
Nastaboi
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« Reply #1 on: 16-01-2014, 07:27:34 PM »

Seems insanely opening hand dependant. Games with Ancestral/Lotus/Sol Ring/Mox/Crypt in opening hand are dramatically different than ones without.
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ChristophO
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« Reply #2 on: 16-01-2014, 08:42:04 PM »


Cards are on the banned list (of any format) because they are decided to be unhealthy for the format; because they do not work in a tournament setting, because they cause too many frustrating starts, because they win the game when drawn at almost any point of the game.

For example Stoneforge Mystic has been banned because especially a T2 Stoneforge Mystic has been decided to be too strong for the format. With Moxen in the format Stoneforge can even be played on T1. How is that seceuqne weakend by the absence of Jace? It is not weakened. This Point list pushes frustrating starts ands allows all sorts of utterly unfair. People do not lose once they resolve Birthing Pod or Survival (at least this why they have been banned here). Regulating format breaking cards with a point list is just really dumb in my eyes.

Creating a choice for how to wreck your opponent on T1 or T2 does not lead to better game play. Simply ban the silly offending cards an be done with it.
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GoblinPiledriver
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« Reply #3 on: 16-01-2014, 08:47:51 PM »

So there are 14 Points to give for every 100 cards a deck plays.


Here a point sorted list: (Green allowed in our format, red banned in our format)
Time Vault – 7
Ancestral Recall – 6
Time Walk – 6
Tinker – 6
Black Lotus – 6
Sol Ring – 6

Demonic Tutor – 5
Hermit Druid – 5

Birthing Pod – 4
Strip Mine – 4
Survival of the Fittest – 4
Skullclamp – 4
Vampiric Tutor – 4
Gifts Ungiven – 3
Imperial Seal – 3
Mox Emerald – 3
Mox Jet – 3
Mox Pearl – 3
Mox Ruby – 3
Mox Sapphire – 3
Mystical Tutor – 3
Library of Alexandria – 3

Price of Progress – 3
Protean Hulk – 3
Tolarian Academy – 3

Umezawa’s Jitte – 2
Mishra’s Workshop – 2
Balance – 2
Mana Crypt – 2

Mana Drain – 2
Mana Vault – 2
Intuition – 2
Wasteland – 2
Oath of Druids – 2
Recurring Nightmare – 2
Sensei’s Divining Top – 2
Merchant Scroll – 2
Enlightened Tutor – 2

Fastbond – 2
Crucible of Worlds – 1
Goblin Recruiter – 1
Jace, the Mind Sculptor – 1

Mind Twist – 1
Moat – 1
Natural Order – 1
Scapeshift – 1
Stoneforge Mystic – 1
Wheel of Fortune – 1
Winter Orb – 1
Yawgmoth’s Will – 1




Sorted for color:
White:
Balance – 2
Enlightened Tutor – 2
Moat – 1
Stoneforge Mystic – 1

Blue:
Ancestral Recall – 6
Time Walk – 6
Tinker – 6
Gifts Ungiven – 3
Mystical Tutor – 3
Mana Drain – 2
Intuition – 2
Merchant Scroll – 2
Jace, the Mind Sculptor – 1

Black:
Demonic Tutor – 5
Vampiric Tutor – 4
Imperial Seal – 3
Recurring Nightmare – 2
Mind Twist – 1
Yawgmoth’s Will – 1

Red:
Price of Progress – 3
Goblin Recruiter – 1
Wheel of Fortune – 1

Green:
Hermit Druid – 5
Birthing Pod – 4
Survival of the Fittest – 4
Protean Hulk – 3
Oath of Druids – 2
Fastbond – 2
Natural Order – 1
Scapeshift – 1

Colorless:
Time Vault – 7
Black Lotus – 6
Sol Ring – 6
Skullclamp – 4
Strip Mine – 4
Mox Emerald – 3
Mox Jet – 3
Mox Pearl – 3
Mox Ruby – 3
Mox Sapphire – 3
Tolarian Academy – 3
Library of Alexandria – 3
Wasteland – 2
Umezawa’s Jitte – 2
Mana Crypt – 2
Mana Vault – 2
Mishra’s Workshop – 2
Sensei’s Divining Top – 2
Crucible of Worlds – 1
Winter Orb – 1
« Last Edit: 16-01-2014, 09:01:16 PM by GoblinPiledriver » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: 17-01-2014, 09:47:20 AM »

I agree with Nastaboi and ChristophO here. It can be very frustrating to play against the Power cards.

How is this system any better to an elaborated banned list? Most of the cards on our banned list are there for a very good reason.

1st turn Tinker into Blightsteel Colossus (and thousand other broken plays that are possible in this format) is just unfair.
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« Reply #5 on: 17-01-2014, 01:51:01 PM »

There is also Australian variant: http://mtgau.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=20&sid=25086980c26d4be7deb5af4062741091

They also prefer the points system, BUT is only 60 cards. Funnily enough, I feel that Aussies have a better format as the decks are much more consistent and opponent drawing those restricted cards at some point is almost expected so you need to prepare accordingly. They also have sideboards which again, kinda make sense in 60-card format, but I am not entirely sure how to feel about that.

Both of these formats kinda sound sweet to me, but I fear that the novelty would wear off quickly as there is not much you can do about your opponent peeling Sol Ring twice in a match.
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SirGalahad
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« Reply #6 on: 17-01-2014, 02:39:43 PM »

To me it's just how you approach Highlander as a format. I remember some people in Germany were really frustrated to hear the magicplayer.org-rules didn't allow Power9 and such. Some people just like to do the unfair stuff and are ok with their opponent doing the same. Of course these games tend to be more one-sided with a broken start, but if this is ok for these guys and they have fun with it, why not?

At least they have the better mulligan...  Wink
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Nastaboi
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« Reply #7 on: 17-01-2014, 05:00:43 PM »

At least they have the better mulligan...  Wink

Who has the better mulligan?
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orca-
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« Reply #8 on: 17-01-2014, 09:54:19 PM »

What is the better mulligan?
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W0lf
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« Reply #9 on: 18-01-2014, 01:25:37 AM »

The point list could be used as an addition to the ban list, other formats have banned and restricted lists too. You could point fetchlands for example or a bunch of other cards for precise balancing.
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haju
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« Reply #10 on: 18-01-2014, 02:53:15 PM »

Even though the idea of a point list seems tempting, as one could control the strength of different archetypes even better I don’t like it at all. As one allows some way over the top cards the format will become more dependent on the cards one draws (initially and during the game). Right now some players want to ban Mana Drain and Demonic Tutor because it looks like they can turn games around, with even more absurd cards this problem may become more and more present.

I think a card should never be banned because it’s expensive moneywise, but allowing the P9 will make it even harder to enter the format and could be really crucial for our beloved format. Even if it’s just because new players think that the need P9 to succeed.

Another fact I don’t like about these lists is, that it’s hard to validate whether a deck is legal or not. At my last HLGP I had an opponent with an unintentionally illegal deck as he had played a Tolarian Academy which was banned back then. He simply had to change the card and everything was good to go. With a point list it will be hard to see whether a deck contains 15 or 14 points. (Please keep in mind that I’m talking about unintentionally having an illegal decklist Wink)
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Tiggupiru
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« Reply #11 on: 18-01-2014, 04:38:07 PM »

I think a card should never be banned because it’s expensive moneywise

Why is this, btw?

Banned list is in place to keep people playing or give players incentive to jump into a format and if that can be achieved keeping something like Imperial Seal banned, I am totally okay with that. I really don't see how does a flowchart type of banlist guideline would ever work to ensure the format stays healthy.
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haju
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« Reply #12 on: 18-01-2014, 05:10:27 PM »

Card prices increase drastically and the question is where to draw the line. Is a card one can “easily” acquire for 275€ too expensive for the format. If so does that mean that a card needs to be banned as soon as there reach a specific price? I don’t think so. Cards should be banned because of their power and only because of that. Personally I think Imperial Seal is banned for good, because it’s a too good tutor right now.

Hypothetical, if there were a card, which would cost more than 275€ which would neither be broken, nor weak, which would be used in one specific deck type and is only good there but not even the best card or belonging to the best combination of cards in this deck type. Is there any reason to ban this card?

Banned list is in place to keep people playing or give players incentive to jump into a format […]
I totally agree with you, but it should be done because of the power of the cards, not their price.
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Nastaboi
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« Reply #13 on: 18-01-2014, 05:37:39 PM »

Hypothetical, if there were a card, which would cost more than 275€ which would neither be broken, nor weak, which would be used in one specific deck type and is only good there but not even the best card or belonging to the best combination of cards in this deck type. Is there any reason to ban this card?
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Tiggupiru
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« Reply #14 on: 18-01-2014, 06:28:37 PM »

Card prices increase drastically and the question is where to draw the line. Is a card one can “easily” acquire for 275€ too expensive for the format. If so does that mean that a card needs to be banned as soon as there reach a specific price? I don’t think so. Cards should be banned because of their power and only because of that. Personally I think Imperial Seal is banned for good, because it’s a too good tutor right now.

Hypothetical, if there were a card, which would cost more than 275€ which would neither be broken, nor weak, which would be used in one specific deck type and is only good there but not even the best card or belonging to the best combination of cards in this deck type. Is there any reason to ban this card?

My point was, drawing clear-cut lines is useless. If a card is deemed to be bad for the format, it should be banned. That is the only guideline that needs to be followed. If a card gets too expensive and council feels it should be banned maybe partly because of it, it should be banned. I mean, the card is probably expensive because it is so powerful anyway. I am not saying we should ban everything that fetches a certain number on the secondary market, I am saying it might as well be one of the criteria to consider because there is no reason not to.

The same goes for any card with any point of comparison: True-Name Nemesis might not fit into any existing reasons to ban a card. I mean, it's just a dude that attacks. This is just an example of a card that nobody knew Magic had the design space for before it got printed.

For example, let's say we would have guidelines to:

1) ban cards that people splash for as the only card of that color
2) good tutors
3) make a whole new deck that is oppressive to the format

TNN doesn't fall into any of those categories and we would need to add more or alter the guidelines (making them irrelevant as they could be changed at whim), or leave it unbanned (probably a bad thing for the format, we might even lose players because of it).

In short, for whatever the reason, if council thinks it's bad for the format, it should be banned. No matter what the reason is.
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