HL Bannings - Community Thread

[Wasser]

Warum findet auf magicplayer.org eigentlich keine öffentliche Diskussion über die neuen Bannings im Oktober statt?
Alles was ich sehe sind interne Post vom Rat. Da sollten doch mehr Leute mit reden können und dürfen. 
Die eigentliche Communitymeinung kann mehr einbezogen werden oder?

[Wasser]

Warum findet auf magicplayer.org eigentlich keine öffentliche Diskussion über die neuen Bannings im Oktober statt?
Alles was ich sehe sind interne Post vom Rat. Da sollten doch mehr Leute mit reden können und dürfen. 
Die eigentliche Communitymeinung kann mehr einbezogen werden oder?

Witzig ist ich werde als Newbee eingestuft und bin fast von Anfang an dabei.

[pyyhttu]

Warum findet auf magicplayer.org eigentlich keine öffentliche Diskussion über die neuen Bannings im Oktober statt?
Alles was ich sehe sind interne Post vom Rat. Da sollten doch mehr Leute mit reden können und dürfen. 
Die eigentliche Communitymeinung kann mehr einbezogen werden oder?

Why aren't there any public debate on the new Bannings held in October magicplayer.org?
All I see are internal posts by the Council but there should be more people to be involved.
The actual community opinion could be included.

That's because the bannings have not been announced yet. Due date is October 1st. And community opinion is included, see http://highlandermagic.info/index.php?id=faq#4

Witzig ist ich werde als Newbee eingestuft und bin fast von Anfang an dabei.

That's because this board configuration happens to use post count to display the status (not that it marks anything really, it's the post content that matters).

[Tabris]

First I like to ask you to write your posts in english so not any non-german speaking member has to use google-translator and since two of five council members are non-german speaking people and you adress a matter to the council it would help really much.

To your point. We discuss bannings and unbannings very open with the community for example the thread about the hl mulligan also contains a lot of discussion regarding single cards which are problematic. Furthermore we created the watchlist for exactly that purpose so the community can give us input about problematic cards or cards which are no longer needed to be banned.

There is a huge difference betweent passive forum lurking and giving input through the years tbh so maybe you are not a newbie but you didnt participate much either (I know you were mainly on the german subforum active)

[Wasser]

 Zunächst möchte ich mich für die schnelle Antwort bedanken.
Und auch dafür, das auf jeden Punkt eingegangen wurde.

Ich möchte auf die gleiche Weise antworten:

Aus meiner Sicht ist das inhaltich jeweils (PUnkt 1-3) dicht an der schlechtest möglichen Antwort, die man bekommen kann (ich war dicht davor Bullshit zu schreiben).

Punkt 1: Zur Aufforderung englisch zu schreiben:
Ich schreibe gern deutsch und ziehe es vor weiter deutsch zu schreiben.
Ausnahmen gab es und gibt es natürlich weiterhin.
Als ich damals in Finnland für das Goetheinstitut und für die Deutsche Botschaft gearbeitet habe und nebenbei in Helsinki gehighländert (sic)  und Werbung für
Sturmgotts Format gemacht habe und ich möchte auch sagen das es vom Herzen her auch ein bischen zu meinem Format geworden ist, habe ich auch keine Sekunde gezögert via english die Kontakte zu Highlandern in Finland zu fördern und zu erhalten.
Wenn ich eine echte Wahl habe, dann möchte ich deutsch schreiben, danke.
Wenn ich das nicht dürfte, wie peinlich wäre das denn??

Punkt 2: Seit Sturmgott seine respektable leider auch folgenschwere Entscheidung getroffen hat ist das
Deutsche Forum (das in einem LInk den ich gerade drückte noch "Main Forum " genannt wurde)
erlich gesagt kalt und nicht nur das. Was eine der schlechten Entwicklungen des und wie gesagt auch meines Formats ist.
Darüber bin ich, wie hier deutlich wird, unzufrieden.

Wichtiger ist, das ich es auch peinlich finde, das man mir zurückschreibt

das
man ja erst nach dem Banning diskutieren sollte.

Was für eine Art demokratisches Community Highlanderrat Verständnis ist das denn?
Es wird verkündet........
..... dann darf man noch einen Meinung haben.
Peinlich!
Wo finden im deutschen (main) Forum die wichtigen Gespräche über Inovationen statt?
Da ist doch viel Potential zur Verbeserung lasst es uns nutzen.

Punkt 3: NewbeeStatus. Frage war: Warum ich als Urgestein des Formats Newbeestatus habe
Antwort:
Nicht genug posts. Danke, das man mir erklärt das die Post den Status entscheiden.
Das war mir nicht neu.
Die Frage enthielt eine tiefere Botschaft zwischen den Zeilen:
hier explizit (worauf ich eigentlich verzichten wollte - aber hier der Wink mit dem Zaun)
Ich habe von Beginn an schon sehr viel gepostet/geschrieben und ja sehr selten
auch unbequemes ausgesprochen. Ist das alles weg? Kann das mal jemand ändern?
Und selbst wenn irgend jemand mal nicht so viel schreibt im Netz. Ist doch kein Grund Ihne zum Newbee zu machen.
Eine aus der comerziellen Webwelt zu unrecht übernommene Fehleinschätzung
Leute die mehr lesen und nicht posten anders zu bewerten.
Das man keinen Content produziert heißt doch nicht, dass man nicht gedanklich und vor allem dann im real
life in der community nicht handelt.

Shortlist:
1. Deutschreiben sollte erlaubt und erwünscht sein.
2. Nicht der Rat entscheidet Bannings sondern er spricht die Bedürfnisse der Community aus und trägt Sorge für die Weiterentwicklung des Formats
3. Newbee ist ok . Das ist Kinderkram und ist mir auch gar micht so wichtig. Aber solche schwachen Antworten als ob man ein Newbee wäre ....da sehe ich meinen Beitrag für das Format von einem Newbee (der sehr wohl anerkannt momentan viel für das Format tut) doch zu sehr übergangen.

PS: Es fehlt mir die
ehrenhafte Art mit der Sturmgott diesem Format im Rat Stil gegeben hat (Bspw. den Demonik Tutor mag ich nach wie vor nicht, aber ich kann akzeptieren warum er im Sinne der Einzigartigkeit, highlanderartigkeit in Sturmgotts Augen im Format sein musste)
Man konnte jedem sagen es sei das beste Format. Ich habe mich gern dafür eingesetzt.
Heute ist es irgendeinem Format näher als zu vor. Daran muss sich etwas ändern.
...

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

Wasser

[ChristophO]

Wasser:
As Tabris has said you are excluding all non German players. This is pretty stupid if you can actually manage to get your point across in english.
I agree that the Front end is a mess. I disagree on the proposed consequences. The German Forum is dead and there is no point in having one (since everybody who plays Magic AND can afford the Highlander Manabase should be able to speak some basic English at least).

You make a pretty compelling argument why the council discoussion is closed. With people like you the tone on this board will reach the level of shit flinging pretty quickly which will lead to a commuinity that is worse-off (same as with your writing in German). Also there is no need for an open council group. You can talk about every card before it gets unbanned or banned since the council is using a banned/watch list/unbanned system. Since you dont seem to get I will try to explain it to you:
Cards are never banned outright. They get moved to the ban watchlist first (this can happen every three months). If a card is watchlisted you disagree with you have got three months to discuss about it on this board. Same is true for card unbannings. Claiming you are not enabled to discuss and make your point is wrong. You can open threads at anytime and talk about changes and take influence. But you might need to do it in English, otherwise quite a few people will not read it.
I really dont miss Sturmgott and the german board. I reread the discussion about the introduction of the spoils mulligan and THAT situation clearly was neither democratic nor fair. LOTS of people protested and their input was put down because Sturmgott claimed he knew better making all discussion needless because he had picked his decision from the very beginning. This is the important part: listening to the feedback and having a flexible mind as a council member. Not wether Council members have a closed sub forum. Are you also forbidding personal talk via skype or PN for council members? You are crazy.

First I would like to thank you for the quick reply.
And also this , which was received at each point.

I want to respond in the same way :

In my view, the inhaltich each ( items 1-3 ) is close to the worst possible answer , you can get (I was close to it to write bullshit ) .

Point 1: english writing prompt to :
I like to write German and prefer to continue to write German .
There were exceptions , and there are of course continue .
When I worked at that time in Finland for the Goethe Institute and the German Embassy in Helsinki and by the way gehighländert (sic ) and advertising
Storm god format have made and I also want to say that it has become from the heart a little bit to my size , I also hesitated for a second via english to promote contacts with Highlanders in Finland and maintain .
If I have a real choice , I would write German , thank you.
If I should not , how embarrassing would that be ?

Point 2: Storm Since God has made ​​his respectable unfortunately momentous decision is the
German forum ( which was not mentioned in the LInk I just pressed " Main Forum " )
variably said cold and not only that, what is one of the developments of the poor and as I said even my size.
Furthermore , I am, as is evident here , dissatisfied.

More importantly , I find it embarrassing that you write me back

the
should be discussed only after the Banning yes .

What is it for a kind of democratic community Highlanderrat understanding ?
It is announced ........
..... then you may still have an opinion.
Embarrassing !
In German ( main) forum where you can find the important conversations about inovations instead ?
But there is much potential for the Improvement let us use it .

Point 3: NewbeeStatus . Question was: Why do I have as a veteran of the format Newbeestatus
Answer:
Not enough posts . Thank you, you explained to me that the post office decide the status.
This was not new to me.
The issue contained a deeper message between the lines:
explicitly here ( which I really wanted to do without - but here's the hint, )
I have a lot posted / written from the start and yes very rare
also extremely uncomfortable . Is it all gone? Can someone change ?
And even if someone writes times not so much on the net. Ihne is no reason to make the newbee .
A miscalculation wrongfully taken from the comer essential web world
People who read and do not post more be evaluated differently .
This is not to say it does not produce any content that you can not intellectually and especially in real
life is not in the community .

Shortlist :
1 German rubbing should be allowed and encouraged .
2 Not the Council decides Banning but he speaks of the needs of the community and shall ensure the development of the formats
3 Newbee 's ok Wink . That's kid's stuff and I also do micht so important. But such weak answers as if you were a newbee .... I see my post for the format of a Newbee ( doing well recognized currently much for the format ) but too much ignored.

PS: I miss the
given honorable way with the storm god this format, the Council has style (For example, the tutor Demonik I still do not like it, but I can accept why he had the sense of uniqueness, highlanderartigkeit in storm god in the eyes of its format )
You could tell everyone it was the best format. I have often used me for it. Smiley
Today, it is closer than any format to before . Because something has to change .

[Sturmgott]

I reread the discussion about the introduction of the spoils mulligan and THAT situation clearly was neither democratic nor fair.

Can you please post the links for this?

[W0lf]

Sturmgott you should take over the Format again, these guys are killing it.

[Tabris]

@ Wasser:

I was really pissed when I read your post and my rage knew no limits. Now as I am calm again I will get to your points. Some of them were already answered by ChristophO though.

A) English vs German. Its simple as ChristophO said, you are simply excluding some members and in particular the ones you are trying to reach. I dont know what your side-brag-story about Finland should tell me but the fact that you once spoke english doesnt mean you dont have to do it anymore also no one forbids you to write a german post but I asked you if you could do it in english for the reasons above.

B) That you miss Sturmgott is your problem alone we got so many positive feedback over the years and people telling us how they are mostly pleased with our work and of course there will always be room for discussion and also some interests will colide but that is the nature of a wide open community as ours. I mean we speak about 400-600 people who are more or less aware of this forum and the whole structure of the council. Furthermore as I remember the discussions in the german forum it was heavily influenced by a certain region in germany now we have a lot more communities giving their input even outside of germany.

C) NO ONE said we discuss bannings after the decissions. I dont know how often you visit this forum but we have a shitload of threads about certain cards/rules. We established several times votings where the communities could exchange reasons and opinions about certain cards. We try to get all the input we can get. Also a lot of discussion moved to facebook at least for some communities where 3 of 5 council members are present. There are at least two groups with about 100 people and the structure there helps a lot to mobilize people to tell their opinions.

And I am very upset to read your bullshit "the council simply declares..." we had a thread about changing the mulligan and about 100 people participated in that so pls dont tell me about the good old times where 10 people from NRW discussed about change.

Innovation has no end in itself if something is stucked or need to change, it will change or it dies. And as you maybe can see the format is growing. I get so many messages from people enjoying the format even old ones. Also some communities have a steady growth in their tournament attendance. In Berlin for example we have a weekly tournament with 12-17 people which is huge for a non sanctioned format. So please stop your whiny attitude and participate. Which brings me to the next point:

D)No one "made" you the noobs you were simply declared to one by the system since your post count is low as pyht already explained so why do you come up with that commercial bullshit accusation I didnt say you are worth less or something I said you should participate if you love the format so much. I mean your posts in the old german forum dont count anymore since this is another community now, simply as that and to say "I posted a lot back in the days"...well good for you you had a opinion 5 years ago. The format changed a lot and the people who are shaping it too (and I dont mean only the council)

That you loved Sturmgotts style so much and believe the format is now worse then before I am sorry but you are mostly alone with that opinion and as long people give that much positive feedback I personaly will not change anything. I dont know what your "honor-style" talking means probably because I dont have any since I am a member of this demonic council but we are open and try to make our decissions transparent also we interact a lot with our local communties and bring that back into the discussions here.

And btw. Bis repetita non placent. So pls keep your latin quotes for yourself.

[pyyhttu]

Originally by ChristophO: "I reread the discussion about the introduction of the spoils mulligan and THAT situation clearly was neither democratic nor fair."

Can you please post the links for this?

@Frank: ChristophO *may* point to this post: http://www.magicplayer.org/forum/index.php?topic=882.msg9121#msg9121 (follow the link to old phpbb-boards).

In any case: We've went through the old posts from archived boards on how the spoils came to be, to better understand what purpose exactly it serves, and to review whether it serves that same purpose anymore (without side effects).

Larger community discussion on the mulligan you can backtrack from the start of the same thread I linked you to.

[Wasser]

 Vielen Dank für die Antworten
und die Begründungen.

Das hilft mir weiter.
Zudem sind mir ein paar Dinge bei den Antworten positiv aufgefallen.

ChristophOs Antwort scheint mir inhaltlich nachvollziehbar und plausibel
(ich bin mir noch nicht sicher ob ich das alles genauso unterschreiben würde, ich denke darüber aber  nach und nehme diesen Blickwinkel auch ernst).  
Ich sehe da bei der Sprache auch keinen Zwang zu polarisieren. Die meisten Highlander, die ich kenne sind halt aus Deutschland und da kann man doch manchmal seine eigene Sprache verwenden. Wenn es meinen internationalen Freunden hilft unterhalte ich mich gern auch mal in englischer Sprache.
Aber die Freiheit zu wählen möchte ich gerne behalten.

Mir gefällt auch an Tabris Antwort die Energie und das Engangement, das zwigschen den Zeilen durchklingt.
Das kann, richtig eingesetzt, nur gut für das Highlanderformat sein. Dieses Engagment habe ich ja bereits an anderer Stelle schon kurz gewürgdigt.

Meine ohne Zweifel unvollkommenen Überlegungen wurden hier fast durchgehend konstruktiv aufgenommen und keiner nimmt so etwas persönlich, das gefällt mir. Es geht doch darum dieses einzigartige Format zu entwickeln und entspannt zu genießen. Da fällt keinem ein Zacken aus der Krone.

Sturmgott und Firestarter haben dem Format auch Format gegeben und mir nebenbei mir viel Freude damit gemacht dafür bin ich dankbar. Ich finde das darf man auch mal schreiben ohne zum "Königsmörder" zu avancieren. (Dabei fällt mir "offtopic" der Text vom Goblinking ein, der Marciavelli sicher gefallen hätte) Oft habe ich deren Entscheidungen im Rat erst nicht geteilt um viel später herauszufinden und anzuarkenen, dass Sie das Format noch viel besser im Blick hatten als ich. Den Eindruck habe ich übrigens von ChristophO dessen Decks und Kommentare mir den Eindruck vermitteln als würde er das Meta bis in die... na ja sagen wir mal... recht genau kennen.Ich schätze das.  

Man kann sich doch ruhig neben den Stärken die Tabirs und andere nicht
 zu vernachlässigende engagierte Highlander haben
sich etwas bei den zuvor genannten Gründervätern abschauen.Oder?
Highlander wird nicht nur durch die Spielregeln oder durch einige youtubevideos oder Konformität zum Format. Es war und sollte das einzigartige Format sein.

In diesem Sinne
auf eine gute neue "postbanningseason"
Gruß

Wasser


Für Unentspannte: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBMn-WPqbZI
Für FDP Freunde: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynNaJcfbXiY

[Nastaboi]

Wasser: I am not going to run your posts through Google translator, so here's at least one council member you won't reach. If you really want to influence us, please use English. If you want to just whine with no intention to be productive, you can use any language you prefer.

Council members do participate to the discussion about bannings in open board. We even start threads specifically to get people's opinion on things.

[Sturmgott]

Originally by ChristophO: "I reread the discussion about the introduction of the spoils mulligan and THAT situation clearly was neither democratic nor fair."

Can you please post the links for this?

@Frank: ChristophO *may* point to this post: http://www.magicplayer.org/forum/index.php?topic=882.msg9121#msg9121 (follow the link to old phpbb-boards).

In any case: We've went through the old posts from archived boards on how the spoils came to be, to better understand what purpose exactly it serves, and to review whether it serves that same purpose anymore (without side effects).

Larger community discussion on the mulligan you can backtrack from the start of the same thread I linked you to.

Following the link in the post you mentioned and linked gives me a 404.

[Wasser]

Nastboi to Wasser:

"I am not going to run your posts through Google translator..."
1.  You say you dont translate my posts. Thats ok with me. When we ever play a game we can chat and talk.
Its the game that brings people together. I am fine with that.

"[Wasser]just whine with no intention"
2. In the old times no member of the council would ever have said that to me.
Is this is the way a council member speaks to an veteran comunity member. This kind of offensiv talk is inacceptable in every language I know. Stop it.

3. "no intention"
My posts have reasoned arguments to develop the Highlander format/forum. You might disagree based on good
reasoning. Thats ok with me. Dont say things that are not true esspecialy when you didnt read the original posts.  

4. "If you really want to influence us,"
What is "US"? Who hides behind this miracle Group.  
And I dont need and want to influeence your "US". I dont care. I do care for the Highlanderformat/community.
A community I did ( a very little bit but with heart )help to build. People I do play with every week. People that learned to love this kind of Magic. I am part of what I concider "US".  

5. "We even start threads specifically to get people's opinion on things"
I support that. But there are still many active People part of what you call "peoples opinion" and I would call the "Highlandercommunity" that are not part of your threads. Some like the old forum,some the german forum and some no pc,mobile, internetplatforms at all.    
Highlander happens everywere else also. We should have that in mind to prevent that highlander is only
a group of people in these forums, laddertounaments or in todays council. And yes its impossible to include
all of their demands. Thats ok. But dont think just the internetforums you referring to are the community.

6.
Language: I prefer the possibility to talk (not exclusive but as a possibility) in a german forum and in my language. I am no one that want to be exclusive or excluded by doing that. My point is that its ok to speak with people in your own laguage and its not ok do demand that you have to speak and write in another.
The german main site is my mothership and there is not much inteaction happening right now (maybe because of a new policy I dont know).
I am not exclusiv by prefering speaking to my playpals in mothertounge. Should I choose my religion by biggest size of there followers because than I am at least exclusiv. I think that inclusion works different. You are allowed to be like you want and choose your kind, but you still could find good ways to communicate with those who choose otherwise. Why not speak and write like you do best. And if you like to talk to others try to choose a language that work. Like I try do it here. Hopefully it works? I try it.
"We" and "us" could do more important things for the community than tell people in wich language to post.

Shortlist:
I like the idea of an open discussion process and Banning is a major issue.  
I like the idea of no offence and good reasoning.
I like the idea of having the right to choose to write in my mothertounge /language.

If I could have a wish. Stop acting like in your last post.This is suboptimal.  
Some, maybe many people who are not part of the todays  preferd Internetspots
did there share to create and develop this community, and many are still an active part of it away from your prefered englishforum, treat them with respect.

We should develop the Format and give the Highlander format more of the honor and the quality back that
it had lost since the bright days of Sturmgott. Maybe it will become even better one day.
Lets start with the decisions for October and the way we argue.  

Greetings

Wasser

P.S.
I m a nice guy. Dont take things to serious.  
Im übrigen bin ich der Meinung das das Format eine Spur zu schnell (zu legacyartig) ist.
Und ich es mir manchmal so wie tabris in seinen Maybordvideos geht und man die ein oder andere Exotenkarte einbauen möchte.Ich es aber aus rationalen Gründen nicht kann, um im Format konkurenzfähig zu sein.  
 

[MMD]

I am sure that neither the council nor the banned list, even not the mulligan is the problem. Highlander is lacking an active community.

Who can say that he is supporting the format? Who is promoting the format? Who gives meaningful content to the community? Most players just utilize or even exploit it.

This format can only be kept alive or even spread with an active community behind it which also requires an active forum to share opinions and thoughts. Sorry to say that a big part of the community has already turned away from this forum and mostly the council members and some people with "special behaviors" like W0lf or Wasser post here. Decreasing activity is an evidence of a dying format IMO. This may not be valid for certain local communities and/or players (e.g. Tabris and his Berlin crowd seems to be in good condition, which is the crop of their own investment) but even these healthy local communities require an International community on the long-run.

@ topic:

This is not the first time people feel disregarded, so it seems that this is a weak spot. Why not hiding the council activity report or even choose different communication channels to stop it?

Why not open an official community banned list topic next time to satisfy the moaning players? At least you can counteract their argument that the community has no voice. It seems that parts of the community want to share their thoughts but are afraid to start the discussion and need the council´s help to do so.

Sounds stupid but it seems necessary. Damn politics and strategy...


@ Council: Thanks a lot for your efforts! Keep up the good work!