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Community Poll - Mulligan

Started by Vazdru, 13-07-2013, 12:52:32 PM

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Vazdru

Rules for this thread (plz read before posting)

* everyone in the community is allowed to post once in this thread (i want no discussion, your second post will deleted without any further warning, for reasonings please continue posting on Thoughts about the current HL-Situation)
* plz let me know which mulligan you prefer:
A) current hl "spoils-mulligan" (also known as "poker-mulligan")
B) free mulligan (u may reject your hand and draw 7 new cards)
C) "road to paris" (official mulligan, draw one card less each time)
D) anything else (+ description)
E) you don't care
* reasons for your decision voluntarily

___________________________________

part of Watch List Changes Season II - 2013

Mulligan:

Current "spoils-mulligan" (also known as "poker-mulligan") has been a subject of a discussion lately, namely in these threads:

Thoughts about the current HL-Situation
The Spoils-Mulligan Problem
Banlist changes I. of 2013

Main arguments gathered from the feedback have been:

1. With spoils-mulligan interaction starts earlier and games are decided more often on the first turns, making the format too fast
2. Aggro benefits from spoils more by being able to aggressively "curve out" whereas combo/control can't establish in same efficiency with answers their fundamental turn
3. Mulligan is exploited solely for mana-fixing by lowering the amount of lands in a build, and as a standard strategy "deep mulligan" is then used
4. Designing mana bases requires currently little to no thinking, as restrictions set by color wheel don't apply due to mulligan mana-fixing in place; people can play in Bant Eternal Witness as well as Cryptic command with ease
5. Spoils-mulligan is no longer needed as available mana producing lands printed since 2007 is sufficient now
6. Spoils mulligan is not in line with official DCI-rules making the tournaments "non-sanctionable" and harder for new players to enter

The original spoils-mulligan was borrowed back in 2007 from the same name card game to improve the old mulligan rule to make Highlander games more interactive and address the "mana screw & flood" issues, which were observed to be more common in Highlander due to larger deck sizes (see: faq #12). This was the main motivation for the new mulligan as the games were viewed to be decided by a random chance caused by an outdated mechanic rather than any real interaction or play choices happening. In time this was viewed also to result in more card variety and deck diversity.

This was also ultimately the viewpoint of the council in which we looked at the big picture of pros and cons (spoils mulligan vs. regular paris mulligan) and though not unanimously, we decided to keep the current spoils mulligan without a need to open a trial for the regular mulligan at this point (as was the case with 3 month transition period in 2007). We viewed that the mana flood/screw happening is such a turnover for the game, that minimizing it for HL-format is a benefit outweighing the above points.

However, this does not mean that the verdict is final for mulligan as we're constantly monitoring the state of the game. This said, we encourage players to test the format in local tournament play with regular paris mulligan, and we'd appreciate if you can then report back to forums the findings whether regular mulligan compared to spoils improved the play experience.

edit by pyyhttu: Linked the mulligan thread that should be used for discussion.
Far below the earth
Where the demons hunt the souls of those that sleep
In the city of the Vazdru and the Drin
Where the black flame burns inside the palace fountain.

Pennywise

C) Keep it close to the official Formats. Punish the greedy manabases.

W0lf


pyyhttu

I hope we get _a lot_ posts here.

Quote from: Vazdru* everyone in the community is allowed to post once in this thread (i want no discussion, your second post will deleted without any further warning

Want to remind: So that your second post won't get deleted, please use for discussion about mulligan the earlier opened thread: Thoughts about the current HL-Situation (or we can merge too...)

I've leaned lately more and more on:

C) "road to paris" (official mulligan, draw one card less each time)

For reasons, this post sums my thoughts quite well.

MarcMagic

c) > b) > rest imho

as already mentioned get closer to the oficial formats, and punish greedy manabases. A 'free' mulligan is not too bad as well but I'd prefer c) over it.

~Fenry~

One free mulligan to get a second chance, if you are manascrewed.

B > C >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A

Tiggupiru

#6
C)

I think option B might work pretty well too, but simple "paris" - mulligan gets a nod from me because of its simplicity.

Vazdru summarized the biggest reasons for the change pretty well. Only thing I want to add: Nobody would propose a change like this just because they can. Please, try it out or give it a reasonable thought yourselves before dismissing it. I think Spoils was a very good mulligan rule when it was needed, but I honestly feel we can do better without it.

EDIT: Just to clarify:

C > B >>>>>> A

Thaddeus

A)
Adds more depth to the game.

berlinballz

A ... if you want the official formats, just play those (and enjoy the total randomness that 40 card limited draws have)

MMD

#9
B) > C) >> D) (Commander X-1) >>> A)

I expect this will eliminate a couple of problems HL currently has (cheat mana/curve) and the flaws Magic has in general (flood/screw). Enough food for thought in the mentioned topics.



Feel free to browse through my MKM account:

http://www.magickartenmarkt.de/index.php?mainPage=showSellerChart&idInfoUser=13199

I also have a huge amount of chinese and japanese foil HL staples not listed yet,  which I would like to downgrade to english foil. Just let me know!

Nastaboi

C) No more cheating for land count, aggro decks no longer have - or need to have - perfect curve every game.
Quote0:13:51 [Nastaboi] Nastaboi plays Invincible Hymn from Hand
0:14:25 [Nastaboi] Nastaboi's life total is now 221 (+213)

LasH

#11
Quote from: Nastaboi on 14-07-2013, 11:09:58 AM
C) No more cheating for land count, aggro decks no longer have - or need to have - perfect curve every game.

This and what i wrote in my thread.

After more thinking, i think B) is the best solution. B > C > A.

I think we need to avoid "no land" punishments from C and avoid a cheated land count/perfect curve from A.




Vazdru

#12
A) personally

but as council member i won't ignore the feedback of the HL community - a clear majority will definitely influence my vote in October

as you can easily discover already two council members have voted C, so it's no secret that there could be a change concerning mulligan rule next ban-season

my personal view:


A) spoilsC) trip to paris
adds a another strategic element to the game-
reducing randomness of the game-
= better players and deck buiders have higher chances to win-
higher chance to get a competitive opening hand-
lower chance to have a mulligan to 6, 5 ...-
= higher chance to take part in the game-
= higher chance to have the deck to do what its built for-
reduce the number of land cards you have to play = more slots for some "exotic" cards-
-lower number of brutal openings
-mana fixing becomes more important, less multicolor-decks
-less special hl rules

imo B) could be some kind of compromise but i can't see the necessity for a change
C) looks horrible for me as I played Singleton for about one year...and the official mulligan was quite stupid and frustrating all the time ... you will understand that feeling if you have to mulligan to one-lander 4-card hand in a deciding 3rd game
Far below the earth
Where the demons hunt the souls of those that sleep
In the city of the Vazdru and the Drin
Where the black flame burns inside the palace fountain.

tonytahiti

A)

absolutely A)! i believe this is one reason why i love this format so much. it delivers "games". mulliganing is frustrating for the person who does it and when happening more than once then it becomes weird for the other person too: he either feels bad or acts like he does. no game of magic then. AND it adds another very interesting dimension to the game. i see people spoil mulliganing soo wrong very often, which is sometimes baffling but at the same time, it just proofs, that its a skill thats gotta be developed and strengthened. spoil mulliganing is not a no-brainer, it can be complex.
Winner - Pro HL Cup, Prague 2002
Winner - Highlander Regional Masters, Phuket 2006
Winner - Sunrise Trophy Run, Hawaii 2006
Winner - North Dakota HL Championships 2007
Winner - Tahiti "One And Only"-Cup #3, 2009
Winner - Gio di Gio Seria, Florenz, 2016
Winner - Jail or be Jailed, Berlin, 2017

Nahkampfhamster

A)

Makes the format more Unique and less fustrating then mulligan to 4 :/