Main site (German)   |    HighlanderMagic.info
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
Login with username, password and session length
14018 Posts in 1016 Topics- by 444 Members - Latest Member: Dracomnis
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Tournament Highlander is dying slowly...    (Read 22366 times)
Nastaboi
HL Online Champion 09 +10
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 600



View Profile
« Reply #30 on: 12-08-2012, 01:04:03 PM »

There are already enough creatures out there that a multicolour creature strategy will have an edge to other deck concepts. We cannot ban every overpowered creature Wizards will introduce in future. We have to deal with the fact that they want us to use creature strategies. Period. Even in Legacy creature strategies are Top tier nowadays. Accept it or start playing vintage or play group houserules.

That's what I have been trying to say. And I want to add that, even if you are forced to use more creatures, different strategies as aggro/control/combo/prison are still doable.
Logged

Quote
0:13:51 [Nastaboi] Nastaboi plays Invincible Hymn from Hand
0:14:25 [Nastaboi] Nastaboi's life total is now 221 (+213)
cron
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 19



View Profile
« Reply #31 on: 12-08-2012, 02:37:20 PM »

hello,

i think many player don't know where & when nearby tournaments in germany are.
i can only talk from my view, in braunschweig, there 4x local tournaments every year.
mostly there are ~12-20 players, entry fee is only 5€ and the prices are always nice and highlander staples (fetches, duals, shockduals, engl. karakas, ....). but the main problem is, the most players in the nearby citys (hannover, wolfsburg, osnabrück, oldenburg, göttingen) don't know this tournament-series exist!

maybe a little and fast solution is a fixed topic with gathered tournament-series infos (maybe sorted for countrys and states).

regards
sascha
« Last Edit: 12-08-2012, 02:42:12 PM by cron » Logged
LasH
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 152


View Profile
« Reply #32 on: 12-08-2012, 10:22:10 PM »


There are already enough creatures out there that a multicolour creature strategy will have an edge to other deck concepts. We cannot ban every overpowered creature Wizards will introduce in future. We have to deal with the fact that they want us to use creature strategies. Period. Even in Legacy creature strategies are Top tier nowadays. Accept it or start playing vintage or play group houserules.

No but u can ban the tutor's for the op creatures. It will have a much bigger impact than u might think, bc cards like Moat etc get much more playable again because the decks would have to run more than 1 spell on leg vs moat (and other permanents who punish creatures). Simply not having the perfect answer EOT with legs IS game changing.

I dont know but it was not a question to ban mystical/enlightened as winter orb/oath dominated the meta. But now that creatures dominate the meta you dont go to ban the tutors? That doesnt make any sense.
Logged
Dreamer
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 147


View Profile
« Reply #33 on: 13-08-2012, 12:49:49 AM »

If anything, we should be striving to keep as much playable tutoring and card sifting tools in the format as possible. Over the years it's started to dawn on me that the very reason I find decks like Pattern-Rector enthralling is that you really feel like you are in control of your own deck instead of the deck and your inner valubot playing the game for you. That feeling of staring down a stupidly hard board, having naught but Demonic Tutor in your hand, initial search coming up empty but then finally finding a single unassuming card in your deck that temporarily defuses the situation is priceless.

The tutors also help in constructing decks with an actual game plan, especially combo decks and quirkier control-oriented things, because you can emphasize otherwise-rare effects a bit. They surely also benefit goodstuff decks, perhaps even more so than plan decks (if this kind of claim makes any sense), but killing the tutors does not kill goodstuff, because the heart of goodstuff is individual card power instead of some adherence to a plan.
Logged
Maggot
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 67



View Profile WWW
« Reply #34 on: 13-08-2012, 03:14:39 AM »

Regarding Transperancy I really like the explaining texts regarding Banlist and Watchlist changes.

I would like to see a "header text" for the Highlander format. While most format "veterans" know the vague standpoint of the council this would be a great benefit for newer players, so that those players can read the text and attain the basic concept of the format and the boundaries the council has set for the format. This header should provide an answer to a couple of format concerns:

- Reason for the exitance of the spoils mulligan
- How big should the role of "pure" combo be in the format?
Is combo allowed only as a fringe archetype or would it be okay as a deck to beat?
- How fast (on which turn?) are decks allowed to kill?
T1 kills okay? T2? T3?  
- What is the stance on unfun cards?
- Are there Banning principles regarding old and powerful cards?
Possible examples: draw 7 spells; 1cc tutors; fast artifact mana

I would also very much like to see the Banlist and Watchlist texts expanded to all cards on the banlist and the watchlist. This would obviously be a lot of work but I strongly believe that well reasoned explanations would further bolster trust in the decisions of the council and the support of the format both. Those texts would also allow an easy entrance into discussion regarding an unbanning at a later time. Right now I have the feeling the council is only concerned about playstrength of cards on the banlist but the influence of a frustration factor, format coherence, and metagame shaping should also be strongly considered. Formulating a strict aim for the format (a header text) and written explanation for all problematic cards explaining the concerns of the specific card would be my dream for the future of the format.

posted by CristophO in March
Logged
MMD
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 216


View Profile
« Reply #35 on: 13-08-2012, 12:52:18 PM »

60 cards + sideboard? 80 without? I don't know for sure but I'd guess that there will be more diversity in terms of different deck streategies? I always bring this point because some time ago I made Highlander decks with just 60 cards and it seemed to be more interesting because it is possible to build decks around even small strategies (tribals for example did way better). just want to throw it in again : )

I can imagine that this could also be a possible improvement as you can focus on (or fight against) a certain strategy much better with only 60+15 cards. We should not disregard this possibility in our discussion.

This would certainly be the end for many casual cards, which I could accept by myself, but it will be the end of the Higlander format as we know it. I have no general problem to play a semi-competitive 60/1 Legacy format with sideboard.

No but u can ban the tutor's for the op creatures. It will have a much bigger impact than u might think, bc cards like Moat etc get much more playable again because the decks would have to run more than 1 spell on leg vs moat (and other permanents who punish creatures). Simply not having the perfect answer EOT with legs IS game changing.

I dont know but it was not a question to ban mystical/enlightened as winter orb/oath dominated the meta. But now that creatures dominate the meta you dont go to ban the tutors? That doesnt make any sense.

Even already horribly of topic I would like to comment.

Again, IMO banning of these two creature tutors might be correct but will not matter enough to make a change.

I would sign a banning of Worldly Tutor and Eladamri´s Call  Shocked as I think they have the same power level as Mystical and Enlightened Tutor. I would even also ban Demonic Tutor and Mana Drain because of power balancing reasons but this is another topic.

But in the end of the day multicolour goodstuff will STILL be the only Tier 1 deck out there. They will cut the "bad" tool creatures like Wickerbough Elder & Co. and add some Vindicate effects (back) in their deck and continue with their "play the best cards available" strategy. Sure there will be more situations where Moat & Co. can be good game then, but in overall it will not matter enough to "repair" the format and the tournament environment.

Quote
Regarding Transperancy I really like the explaining texts regarding Banlist and Watchlist changes. I would like to see a "header text" for the Highlander format
Thumbs up! Such "headers" would definitely help people to understand the format, its rules and decisions made by the council.
« Last Edit: 13-08-2012, 12:57:44 PM by MMD » Logged

Feel free to browse through my MKM account:

http://www.magickartenmarkt.de/index.php?mainPage=showSellerChart&idInfoUser=13199

I also have a huge amount of chinese and japanese foil HL staples not listed yet,  which I would like to downgrade to english foil. Just let me know!
Mir
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 56


View Profile
« Reply #36 on: 14-08-2012, 11:25:49 AM »

What would you think of unbanning some of the cards that might help the control decks? E.g. Balance, Mystical & Enlightened Tutor, Mana Crypt, Mana vault, Sol Ring...

All cheap mana sources such as Sol Ring or Mana Crypt would put this format too close to Vintage. They enable a lot of combos, but may fuel agro decks as well.

I personally play monoblue deck based on both High Tide and Mind over Matter archetypes. To make the deck consistent I use a lot of blue tutors, but:

Putting any spell on your hand, graveyard or even battlefield at instant speed at cost less than 4 is bit broken in this format. Thats something thats direcly in conflict with the slower nature of format.

The questions are how slow or how fast should the format be.
Logged
Ball.Lightning
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 62



View Profile
« Reply #37 on: 14-08-2012, 12:04:38 PM »


All cheap mana sources such as Sol Ring or Mana Crypt would put this format too close to Vintage. They enable a lot of combos, but may fuel agro decks as well.

I personally play monoblue deck based on both High Tide and Mind over Matter archetypes. To make the deck consistent I use a lot of blue tutors, but:

Putting any spell on your hand, graveyard or even battlefield at instant speed at cost less than 4 is bit broken in this format. Thats something thats direcly in conflict with the slower nature of format.

The questions are how slow or how fast should the format be.

0cc or 1cc manastones without card disadvantage(like Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox) or restrictive like Mox Opal would break the format in half. Especially many games would be decided on the fact, who draws mana stone in opening and who don't. Balance is stupidly good card and would not improve the format. If current problem is agro, you certainly do not want to unban Enlightment Tutor as it serves as second Winter Orb. Control can fetch Moat or Humility, while agro has solid amound of answers to that. On the other hand control almost always die when Winter Orb resolves.

I would be fine with mystical tutor on the other hand. Yet it would serve as a removal of choice for goodstuff. 4c decks would propably not be eager to cast armagedon that much. On the other hand its value would be apreciated mostly by control and combo, which have now serious trouble. It might be too good (happy Terminus times ;-) ). If Y. will is unbaned to grant some chance to combo, I think it is safe to allow Mytical Tutor as well.

But yet again, this would not solve the problem itself (which is this thread about).
Logged
Mir
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 56


View Profile
« Reply #38 on: 14-08-2012, 02:30:35 PM »

I wanted to ask different thing... Who are the typical Highlander players?

1. Do They prefer long games?
2. Variable gameplay?
3. Do they have large card collection, or only "good" cards based on direct power level?

First we have to introduce a bit of statistics... We need to know who are the target players, and what they expect from the play...
Logged
pyyhttu
German Open Champion 2010
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 557


View Profile
« Reply #39 on: 15-08-2012, 11:52:11 AM »

@Maggot and MMD regarding transparency:

Quote from: Maggot
I would like to see a "header text" [...] This header should provide an answer to a couple of format concerns:

- Reason for the exitance of the spoils mulligan
- How big should the role of "pure" combo be in the format?
Is combo allowed only as a fringe archetype or would it be okay as a deck to beat?
- How fast (on which turn?) are decks allowed to kill?
T1 kills okay? T2? T3?   
- What is the stance on unfun cards?
- Are there Banning principles regarding old and powerful cards?
Possible examples: draw 7 spells; 1cc tutors; fast artifact mana

Would it be okay if we deepened some of these explanations to the FAQ at http://highlandermagic.info/index.php?id=faq ?

I can take the ball on this, since I'm reviewing the contents of that page (and seeing that some of the entries there are already outdated). This could be targeted to be ready by the next ban/unban review (October 15th).

Quote from: Maggot
I would also very much like to see the Banlist and Watchlist texts expanded to all cards on the banlist and the watchlist.

We do have the regularly posted reasonings whenever changes have been made. But if I read you right, you want the older card ban reasonings _also_ to be documented somewhere (Black Lotus, Fastbond, Tinker...)?
Logged
ChristophO
HL Council Member
Sr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 307


View Profile
« Reply #40 on: 15-08-2012, 01:57:26 PM »

Hey pyyhttu,

I did the original post Maggot and MMD picked up in this thread. Maybe you did not even find it in the bloated forum structure. MMD also reposted it in this thread.

I would rather see a newwly written article as an introductory text similiar to the intent of this old german article/text:
http://www.magicplayer.org/?id=eskannnureinengeben

I also strongly believe that most of the features of the Highlander interset site needs to removed. There is a bloating of features that nobody needs and uses. There are still links to tournament results from 2006, there is a disfunctional german board where I tried to register two times but my application has never been worked out (I never received a mail to finalize account creation probably because nobody is doing that anymore). Nevertheless Frank demands that the forum be kept. I disagree strongly. All the old rubble needs to go so that new interested players do net get lost in this old stuff. This is what we need:

1) Starting page  with:
a)Introduction text about highlander
b) big quarterly news feed regarding bannings (with comment function)
c) tournament locator
d) link list on top with links to:
- Banned List (each card name containing a link to a written out explanation similiar to the banlist changes)
- Forum (like international forum but with maximum 6 sub boards)
- Blog (I like this much more than Tabris games column to check out a deck. Maybe there should be a blog entry for each deck feature article. Once my computer has been fixed I will try to skype with Tabris regarding this topic)
- FAQ/Search/copyright/disclaimer stuff

Especially we should just get rid of a dual presence in both english/german. Instead the translation of the english newsfeed could be posted in the announcement subforum in a collection thread (one for each language that our community supports).

This would obviously be a lot of work but I think that is what I would aim for if I were to make decisions here. We need to debloat and streamline. The web presence is user unfriendly because english/german presence is not the same (which makes the updating process a troublesome work I guess) and there are is too much unnecessary stuff. People I have talked acutally did not find banned list, forum etc. and instead got lost on the web page and therefore maybe did not join our community!

Logged
SirGalahad
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 48


View Profile
« Reply #41 on: 15-08-2012, 03:00:09 PM »

This is what we need:

1) Starting page  with:
a)Introduction text about highlander
b) big quarterly news feed regarding bannings (with comment function)
c) tournament locator
d) link list on top with links to:
- Banned List (each card name containing a link to a written out explanation similiar to the banlist changes)
- Forum (like international forum but with maximum 6 sub boards)
- Blog (I like this much more than Tabris games column to check out a deck. Maybe there should be a blog entry for each deck feature article. Once my computer has been fixed I will try to skype with Tabris regarding this topic)
- FAQ/Search/copyright/disclaimer stuff

i think many player don't know where & when nearby tournaments in germany are.
i can only talk from my view, in braunschweig, there 4x local tournaments every year.
mostly there are ~12-20 players, entry fee is only 5€ and the prices are always nice and highlander staples (fetches, duals, shockduals, engl. karakas, ....). but the main problem is, the most players in the nearby citys (hannover, wolfsburg, osnabrück, oldenburg, göttingen) don't know this tournament-series exist!

Two really good posts here, that finally got me posting here, too. I think, Christoph really pointed out the things, that have to be done about the magicplayer.org-page, if this page is to support the format and the tournament scene in a proper manner.

But the big thing in my opinion is the knowledge about tournaments and other players. Like cron said, players don't know, where and when tournaments are and where other players are. The playgroups are not linked with each other. For example, i didn't know about the tournaments in Braunschweig, although they aren't much further away than the tournaments in Iserlohn were. I didn't know there were players in Osnabrück, although i was there for some FNM-playing. The solution for this point has to come from the community itself. The players and organizers have to be more communicative. If we post more on the boards about our activities, more players will know about it and can join in.

So i think, you can rework the mainpage, the forum and the banned-list - why does everybody and his mother have to talk about the list in this thread? - but you will solve none of the problems, if the people don't talk about tournaments and playgroups and are willing to join and get connected with each other.

And a last point: Ask yourself how many monthly tournaments you want to play. If the answer is not more than one, you got another point, why smaller tournaments are decreasing. If there aren't grinders, who try to play three to four tournaments each month - if they know about and can reach that many - then there will be no big increase in participants, no matter what you do about it. Me for example, i could reach Iserlohn (now Dortmund), Braunschweig, Dülmen (if there was still highlander) and maybe something like Bochum (where many tournaments were thx to Frank's initiative), but because of limited time, i'm sure i would attend a maximum of three in two months, say about 1,5 per month in average.

So guys, don't waste time discussing the banned list, as bad as it may be, or big changes to the format, but go out and try to reach other players. First date for this could be the tournament in Dortmund this saturday. (http://auenland.de/?page_id=703)

edit: And if you really want to know, why so few players from the competitive scene join in on the highlander format, all players i talked to over the time - not a few from the german tournament scene - told me two points: awful mulligan and unbalanced banned list. (now i talked about the banned list myself  Angry) These are the two things, that hold the most players from trying out the format.
« Last Edit: 15-08-2012, 03:03:27 PM by SirGalahad » Logged
Tabris
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 860



View Profile
« Reply #42 on: 15-08-2012, 03:26:29 PM »

Good points Christoph, as usual a sharp analysis. I agree with you on the much needed updates for the site. Some time ago I was making some content for the Highlander Blog and was speaking with Vazdru and Stefan (which is more or less our technical admin for the board) about improvements for the blog and forums.
Somehow we were not able to implement the ideas we had. I hope this second attempt will be fruitful.

Clarity on the forums/site should be our first priority. So much people told me they were not able to find anything here. The board structure is just horrible.

If we want to keep the blog I surely need assitance. I have no problem with posting articles or other content people will send me. Like Kassow Rossing did with his Oath-Primer. I did some articles by myself with metagame analysis and reports from the Grand Prixs or some Deckprimer but now with my weekly column I dont have the time to produce content for both sites (I agree that a deckbase or locked threads are much easier to find than my decks on the Magic Universe site, thats why I post it here on the decklist board, so people can browse trough the post (not optimal but better than nothing))

@Galahad: Do the people tell you what specific aspects(cards) they find unbalanced on our bannedlist?(I am assuming they dont play the format bc of mulligan+bannedlist?)

Logged
berlinballz
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 69


View Profile
« Reply #43 on: 04-10-2012, 01:24:50 AM »

Hey everyone,

I've really enjoyed the discussion. Very interesting to hear from different people what they feel causes declining participation. After returning to the game a few years backand playing standard, limited and Highlander, to me it's obvious that Highlander is by far the most enjoyable format for numerous reasons and deserves any push we can give it, I have some ideas of my own.

One thing I kept reading, which really has me wondering though is the "5c aggro rules, I am a sad control-clown" argument.

Maybe I have it totally wrong, but I am from Berlin and I just don't see it.What I see is Tabris dominating week after week with only control and combo builds. And not just him. I've top-eighted a few times with zoo, I am
no complete newbie and I think maybe everyone needs to take a long hard look at whatcontrol has been getting in the last few sets and is about to get. Just of the top of my head, this is what comes to mind:

Dungeon Geists
Geist of Saint Traft
Snapcaster Mage
Entreat the Angels
Bonfire of the Damned
Runechanter's Pike
Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
Baleful Strix
....probably forgot a bunch of stuff.

about to get:

Detention Sphere
Supreme Verdict
Azorius Charm
Jace, Architect of Thought

what has aggro gotten lately? Come on you control-guys. Make me call for bans. I'm aggro, midrange at most.
Bring it Smiley



« Last Edit: 04-10-2012, 01:26:26 AM by berlinballz » Logged
Kristian
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 109



View Profile
« Reply #44 on: 04-10-2012, 09:54:21 AM »

Berlinballz,
It's the inherent consistency of aggro that's the issue compared to control. Around here (Denmark) people play 3-4 colour aggro for most success packaged with distruption (discard/land destruction - Hymn to Tourach, Gerard's Verdict, Duress, Thoughtseize, Inqusition of Kozilek, Vindicate, Sinkhole, Wasteland and more), that coupled with plenty of good tempo and card advantage (quality and/or quantity) creatures/planeswalkers (Bloodbraid Elf, Stoneforge Mystic, Elspeth Knight-Errant, Ajani Vengeant etc.), makes it hard for control to contend. I'm not syaing you can't win as control, but it's unfun when you consistenly lose to quicker decks.

I've transitioned into EDH/Commander, simply because I enjoy the control archetype (for Commander) more and I have the cards for building mostly any deck I want.

What I think kills the format (along with it being aggro-centric), is the lack of innovation. We simply have no rapid influx (and possibly outflux) of new cards. Unlike standard, we don't have a rotation of sets.

ADDENDUM:
Also, of the cards you list, Geist of Saint Traft and Snapcaster mage are great to devastating in aggro. Dungeon Geists and Tamiyo, the Moon Sage I haven't tested, but I suspect they might be too slow. Bonfire of the Damned and Entreat of the Angels could obviously be good in control and works well with tutors to top, however, they're also more of topdeck cards (miracle) than purposefully playing well, add to that, nigh useless if you draw them out of situation (starting hand or turn 1 to 3). Baleful Strix is good for any control deck that can run him.

Of RTR, Detention Sphere and Supreme Verdict are great. Azorius Charm needs to be tested, it can be problematic with etb creatures and cascade. The new Jace isn't worth it, for 4 mana, he doesn't do enough.

One thing that haven't been addressed. You NEED to play creatures, even when you play control. In order to be somewhat succesful against aggro (weenie, tempo and midrange), you have to run creatures like Flametongue Kavu, Shriekmaw, Lone Missionary, Eternal Witness etc. simply because of the effectiveness of having blockers and etb effects (the spells on legs issue). I often couple this with an Recurring Nightmare engine simply because of the power of the cards. I consider this an issue because it locks in a larger part of your deck when you construct a control deck. It's not an option, it's a necessity.
« Last Edit: 04-10-2012, 10:31:20 AM by Kristian » Logged

There can be only one!
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Up
Print
Jump to:  

 

Wizards of the Coast® and Magic: the Gathering® are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc. (WotC).
Magic: the Gathering®, the five mana-symbols, the tap-symbol and most cards and artworks are © WotC.

© 2004-2007 by connexo websolutions   |   Imprint