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HL bannings october 2011

Started by Mythrandir, 01-10-2011, 01:38:06 AM

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haju

#15
I really had not expected hoped that Gifts Ungiven wouldn't be banned because it's one of the few cards which truly require skill to be devastating. Additionally Gifts Ungiven is one of the best cards in a control deck, of course it's played in a lot of different decks because of the really nice casting costs, but control decks are hurt the most. Gifts Ungiven is one of most polarizing cards in Highlander and usually the decisions of the council are good for our format, so we should wait and see in which direction the format will develop.

The rest of the looks very fine to me and I like to see so much combo stuff on the Unban-Watch list. I also do like the fact that neither Mana Drain nor Demonic Tutor are on the Watchlist. These two cards can be extremely strong, but they are also two reasons that control decks are playable. When it comes to Imperial Seal I really don't understand the discussion about the price. In my opinion the price should NEVER be a reason to ban or unban a card. If you want to play it you have to buy it (I don't own one and I'm not sure whether I would buy one if it was unbanned or not). Magic is an expensive hobby and there shouldn't be something like an unnatural limitation of the price a card can have to be legal in Highlander, because not even the council should be able to decide how much someone spends for cards. Somebody wrote that the Seal is highly splashable - I don't think so because one has to play it in the first few turns to unleash its full potential and that's more difficult if black is just a splash.

Moving Stoneforge Mystic to the Watchlist is a very nice move. Right now this card is one of the most annoying cards in the format; it's nearly always the same: Play Stoneforge search for Batterskull and hope that Stoneforge survives until one can sneak Batterskol onto the Battlefield.

Maqi

#16
Quote from: haju on 04-10-2011, 02:48:08 PM
In my opinion the price should NEVER be a reason to ban or unban a card. If you want to play it you have to buy it (I don't own one and I'm not sure whether I would buy one if it was unbanned of not). Magic is an expensive hobby and there shouldn't be something like an unnatural limitation of the price a card can have to be legal in Highlander, because not even the council should be able to decide how much someone spends for cards.

I'm with you here. In an ideal world, monetary value shouldn't be a reason for banning or unbanning. Highlander however, like any other format, stands and falls with its community. Even more so because the number of HL-players is relatively small. High card prices will hinder the growth of any community.

Furthermore, "growth" of community is especially important for small formats like HL. There are several points worth mentioning here. I'll pick three and elaborate on them:

1. HL tournament attendance is quite low. There isn't much of a difference between 100 players attending or 50. The result is, there will be a tournament. Often quite different though with HL. The difference between 30 or 10 players will make or break a tournament.

2. HL rather caters to more mature players. Many of those have responsibilities (work, family and so on). Despite the presence of many diehard-players, HL has a high "drop out" percentage. To make up for this loss of players you have to constantly keep the community growing. So, allowing the community to grow is an integral part of keeping the format alive in the first place.

3. HL has gotten a new contender in Commander. Many young players in our local shop are picking up Commander instead of HL. Having a rival to growth may threaten the very existence of HL in the long run.

Therefore, whenever a decision is made concerning the banned list, the potentially adverse effects on community growth should be factored in.

I feel that the HL council is doing a good job with this so far. Keep up the good work!

Ravager Sam

If anything, I would have predicted a Top ban before a Gifts ban. Gifts is a one time thing that doesn't *always* win the game.  However, Top gives the player with Top such a huge advantage over the player without Top.  And the player without Top has to sit there every turn wishing he had a Top, too. 

Mythrandir

Quote from: Ravager Sam on 05-10-2011, 05:56:47 AM
If anything, I would have predicted a Top ban before a Gifts ban. Gifts is a one time thing that doesn't *always* win the game.  However, Top gives the player with Top such a huge advantage over the player without Top.  And the player without Top has to sit there every turn wishing he had a Top, too. 

I disagree. Gifts turns the tables a lot more and can finish the game a lot more, than a top. Tops is very good early on, but it won't save you from getting killed later on. Gifts has the potential to turn a lost match to a winning one. (although I'dprefer if the two weren unbanned as it were.. :), but that's in th past...)

haju

Quote from: Ravager Sam on 05-10-2011, 05:56:47 AM
However, Top gives the player with Top such a huge advantage over the player without Top.  And the player without Top has to sit there every turn wishing he had a Top, too. 
That's right, but you could insert the name of nearly every Planeswalker here and it would be right too. If I use the second ability of Jace, the Mindsculptor every turn you wish you would have a Jace, the Mindsculptor on your side of the table.

@Card prices: High card prices are hindering the growth right now: My brother is trying to build a deck, he knows that it'll be far from optimal if he doesn't spend a huge amount of money - and I'm not talking about a four or five color good stuff deck. I don't think that one, two or even ten very expensive cards will hinder someone to start with highlander it's the amount you have to pay to build your first deck. I'm not sure what's the right way to get the community growing but making it easier (read cheaper) wouldn't be the wrong way. Of course there is no way to control card prices, but if one can't prevent this by banning some cards one shouldn't ban some few cards because they are more expensive than other. I think there are lots of players never attending tournaments. I know 4 other players playing Highlander but don't go to Iserlohn or Dülmen (the nearest tournaments) very often, as a matter of time.

Thibir

Would somebody please update banned list here? http://highlandermagic.info/index.php?id=bannedlist. We are going to have annual Mtg.sk cup (16.10. Bratislava), which is attended by many players out of HL format and it would be nice to be able to show them banned list at one place. Thanks a lot.

pyyhttu

Yes, give it some time. I've messaged the webmaster (derStefan82) about this.

Ravager Sam

Quote from: haju on 05-10-2011, 06:40:47 PM
Quote from: Ravager Sam on 05-10-2011, 05:56:47 AM
However, Top gives the player with Top such a huge advantage over the player without Top.  And the player without Top has to sit there every turn wishing he had a Top, too. 
That's right, but you could insert the name of nearly every Planeswalker here and it would be right too. If I use the second ability of Jace, the Mindsculptor every turn you wish you would have a Jace, the Mindsculptor on your side of the table.

Top costs 1 and can't really be answered effectively.  Jace is a bit different in this aspect costing 4 (with 2 blue) and dies to more types of removal more easily (nonetheless attacking).

@ Mythrandir - I certainly agree with you on the power of Gifts Ungiven - no doubt there. But top is also extremely powerful and I feel it has more power late game then you're giving it credit for.  In my experiences, it's also just been SO much easier to beat an opponent without early top than it is to beat someone with early top.

Mythrandir

Quote@ Mythrandir - I certainly agree with you on the power of Gifts Ungiven - no doubt there. But top is also extremely powerful and I feel it has more power late game then you're giving it credit for.  In my experiences, it's also just been SO much easier to beat an opponent without early top than it is to beat someone with early top.

I agree with you: TOP is an incredible card, but if you're screw/losing, top won't save your life, or at least won't save it very differently from, let's say a brainstorm... Gifts has the potential to win you the game on the spot, or at least save your neck for a couple more turns...
Anyways, not bashing TOP, love it, and hope it stays unbanned! :)

Ravager Sam

Quote from: Mythrandir on 07-10-2011, 04:32:34 PM
Quote@ Mythrandir - I certainly agree with you on the power of Gifts Ungiven - no doubt there. But top is also extremely powerful and I feel it has more power late game then you're giving it credit for.  In my experiences, it's also just been SO much easier to beat an opponent without early top than it is to beat someone with early top.

I agree with you: TOP is an incredible card, but if you're screw/losing, top won't save your life, or at least won't save it very differently from, let's say a brainstorm... Gifts has the potential to win you the game on the spot, or at least save your neck for a couple more turns...
Anyways, not bashing TOP, love it, and hope it stays unbanned! :)

Yeah, in some situations Top's just doing a whole lot of nothing for ya.  But at the same time, that means there isn't very much that in general that would be helpful.

Two memories:

In one game, I was playing against zoo/aggro (I was on UWB control) - he had t2 sylvan library and it just didn't matter.  I Wrathed early, and then Vindicated his follow-up Goyf and the library was irrelevant.  Sure Library =/= Top, but it's the same idea.  The point was even the ability to draw extra cards and chose between 3 cards to draw each turn, it wasn't enough to even make it a close game.

In another game I played the UW control mirror match.  Literally, my opponent had early Top & that was the only thing that kept him in the game.  I had a much better list with better cards, but his ability to hit threats more often was extremely helpful to him.  After an hour, neither of us had any non-land permanents out and the life total was like 9 to 13, so we never actually finished that game (time was called).  We were actively getting nowhere fast, and he was going to win soon, but I cast Gifts Ungiven in one of the final turns. :) 


Mir

Gifts ungiven

The most broken way how to use this card is in reanimator deck where really does not matter whether the cards are in grave or on hand. The second broken way is to search for Recall + three same cards. Its direct power level when comparing to manacost is OK, but the way how the card can be broken is really dangerous.

Sensei's divining top
I know only two combos for this card. Countertop (with counterbalance) and second with Futuresight, ethereal sculptor, Brainfreeze (other storm card). In the second case the deck has to be build around the combo and its not as effective as other blue combos I have tried. When used standalone the Top needs a lot of shuffling effects. This increases its effectivity. Many people use the digging ability every turn, sometimes more than once even when the deck was not reshuffled.

Without shuffling it does not much. You just get information about one new card on top of the library. The fact that there is no good response against it means only that people are pissed off because they cannot destroy it. Top itself has an positive impact on game and card as they come, but cannot do miracles. The Scroll rack can do much more...


Trinisphere
I like the unbanning. Generally it will have positive impact on our local meta which has 90 percent of aggro decks.