Stoneforge Mystic and JTMS are banned in Standard

[Maggot]

@ Sepiron
I also think that some cards on the banned list need to be reconsidered, imo a banned list should always be as short as possible.
But I disagree with you on the following card evaluations:

-Jitte: It's strong but with abudance of artifact removal and arguably stronger equipments, is it really banworthy? Consider this mystc, sofi and batterskull. Is jitte thatmuch stronger than the others? I think mystic is around the same powerlevel of bokeness as jitte is, so i don't see point of one being banned and other not (except that you dont want to keep both in format at the same time, but then again batterskull kinda breaks things).

Jitte is more powerfull than SoFI because the ability triggers anytime the creature deals combat damage not only when the creature deals combat damage to a player. It also stacks up counters, wich can be used at instant speed not only when the damage is dealt. SoFI cant kill a potential blocker before combat or save you from a deadly blow.
SoFI doesn´t synergize with Proliferate
Without SFM to cheat Batterskull in it will affect the game later and it doesn´t give the controller as many options as Jitte.
If Jitte was in the format I would vote for a ban of SFM.

-Life from the Loam (replacing gifts and maybe intuition): with no LoA it's not as bad as it was before banning and without gifts it won't become war of attrition on who gets bored first. Loam is mostly relevant in control/midrange mirrors which are dominated by gifts anyway and it kinda helps against mystic (More probability of maze of ith sticking around).

Replacing Gifts and Intuition with Loam is a two for one trade, and therefore bad 
Or we could ban all the cycle lands that nobody plays without Loam and allow Loam, Gifts and Intuition all together

@ Tonytahiti
That´s a valid point, I think it needs testing.

Cheerio

Maggot

[Sephiron]

Jitte is more powerfull than SoFI because the ability triggers anytime the creature deals combat damage not only when the creature deals combat damage to a player. It also stacks up counters, wich can be used at instant speed not only when the damage is dealt. SoFI cant kill a potential blocker before combat or save you from a deadly blow.
SoFI doesn´t synergize with Proliferate
Without SFM to cheat Batterskull in it will affect the game later and it doesn´t give the controller as many options as Jitte.
If Jitte was in the format I would vote for a ban of SFM.

I didn't mean that sofi is better than jitte, what i mean is that sofi's powerlevel isn't that far from jitte and in current fomat with mystic batterskull and sofi legal, you wouldn't even fetch jitte as often (if you need life or against aggro in general batterskull is usually better and against control sofi is usually better) so what i'm saying is that jitte is just a strong equipment. It woouldn't change anything if it were unbanned now. That's why I don't agree with jitte staying banned and mystic/batterskull/sofi unbanned it just feels wrong since they are of a similar powerlevel.

I agree that banlist should be as short as possible, but then again gifts is a card that should be banned anyway, so it's more like trading loam for intuition (Former enables more deck stratiegies and is more interesting card than the latter).

[Kristian]

Or we could ban all the cycle lands that nobody plays without Loam and allow Loam, Gifts and Intuition all together

I would, but then again, I like making weird decks

EDIT:
On the note of Gifts Ungiven. It is a powerful card, but I find it alot less played compared to SFM even though it's more splashable. I don't really see Gifts Ungiven as problematic, it allows for alot of wild plays, but I've rarely seen it lock the game into a specific track unlike SFM.

[peeler]

I think intuition for Wasteland, Bazaar of Baghdad, Life from the Loam will even with out cycle lands a nearly unbeatable move in Controlmirrors...

[Tiggupiru]

I think intuition for Wasteland, Bazaar of Baghdad, Life from the Loam will even with out cycle lands a nearly unbeatable move in Controlmirrors...

Slow card advantage synergies are all around us. Saying things like that is like saying Thawing Glaciers is unbeatable in the mirror. Besides, that gives no board presence, which is pretty key in any MU. Even in control versus control MUs other has to play the beatdown role and that has to be the one with worse lategame (or they can both assume they have the late game locked up and the one who really has it will win). Resolving a Titan or a planeswalker puts a pretty fast clock and the offending card must be dealt with fast, or Loam + cycling is not going to help much.

And if you are playing Ux control with huge amount of counters, you are weak to graveyard recursion by default, so playing GY- hate should be a given anyway. It also makes Gifts less of a problem, which is pretty bonkers against slow control and must be taken in consideration as long as it stays in the format.

In short, there are synergies or combos that win eventually even without Loam + something, but they can easily be trumped even with a single card. And the wasteland-lock is a lock only if you let it be.

[LasH]

New banlist is out, little bit dissapointed that stoneforge or the tutor's did not even hit the watchlist.

Another season with lot and lots of stoneforges  .

I would love to see a statement from the council about this. Or does the current announcement already mean that they dont see any danger from this card?

[LasH]

So Stoneforge Mystic got the next ban from wizards - modern magic.

Top 8 Tournament in Germany

1. Jonny Al-Saidi (UG-AggroControl)
2. Sebastian Nötzel (UWGr-HotBant)
3. Jochen Korbel (5c Aggro)
4. Marcus Freier (4c Goodstuff no black)
5. Patrick Richter (4c Goodstuff no red)
6. Kai Thiemann (4c-Blood-Midrange)
7. Daniel Barenhoff (UW-Control)
8. Christoph Ohlrogge (WBG-PatternRector)

Possible 7/8 lists did run stoneforge (idk about bloodrange and UW-Control, i think all other list used him for sure). That doesnt mean alot, since you could also argument that all lists did run for example "sensei's divining top". Even if all 8 Lists did run a specific card, that doesnt mean the card is broken.

Even with that background in mind, i still think the card is bad for the format. I have more playtestings now, observed alot of games and this is my conclusion.

[coldcrow]

That top 8 shows the problem of the format, spells on legs. Every new one printed is an autoinclude. Imho there should be WAY more cards off the banlist to empower other decks. We would need to test extensively the fundamental turn for those decks, like tps, academy, stax and whatnot to not be 3 consistently versus weak disruption. I think turn 4 vs. weak disruption (= 1 discard or counter or similar) and 5 vs heavy is totally fine for a combo deck.
I'd probably start with Yawgwill, Wheel, Enlightened and Mystical and see what comes out. Control would also benefit of the latter to fetch eot hate/counters/draw. Wheel/YW would empower GY strategies which are kind of absent lately.

Good to be back.

[Tiggupiru]

That top 8 shows the problem of the format, spells on legs. Every new one printed is an autoinclude.

Well, I don't like this trend at all either, but this is the direction the WotC is taking magic. I am not sure can we artificially fight that effectively.

Imho there should be WAY more cards off the banlist to empower other decks. We would need to test extensively the fundamental turn for those decks, like tps, academy, stax and whatnot to not be 3 consistently versus weak disruption. I think turn 4 vs. weak disruption (= 1 discard or counter or similar) and 5 vs heavy is totally fine for a combo deck.
I'd probably start with Yawgwill, Wheel, Enlightened and Mystical and see what comes out. Control would also benefit of the latter to fetch eot hate/counters/draw. Wheel/YW would empower GY strategies which are kind of absent lately.

I do agree with this. Aside from the Tolarian Academy. It's just too powerful to unban, but it would be interesting six months, so I wouldn't mind too much .

Anything else is perfectly reasonable. Yawgmoth's Will is not very much of a card outside of TPS or some such (and it's good in there only in the late stages of combo where everyone just want the solitaire be over already). Wheel of Fortune is just another draw7 and if Memory Jar didn't break anything (one of the better unbans ever, btw. good job council), neither will WoF.

[MMD]

I don´t think that Stoneforge Mystic is too powerful for this format but he limits the "best play" senario, making Highlander less diverse. If you draw a creature tutor you will most likely search for Stoneforge Mystic due to its low mana cost. Imo Stoneforge Mystic is the best 2CC creature in the format no more no less.

I would also like to see a more unbannings to strengthen Combo and Control decks to fight 3-5C aggro/goodstuff.

I fear that instant tutors are still too powerful to put combo cards together, but this is just my theoretical point of view.

As long as fast mana is untouched cards like Yawgmoth´s Will and Wheel of Fortune should not be too powerful, but I also think that the following cards should be inspected: Imperial Seal, Trinisphere and Entomb

[Mythrandir]

That top 8 shows the problem of the format, spells on legs. Every new one printed is an autoinclude.

Well, I don't like this trend at all either, but this is the direction the WotC is taking magic. I am not sure can we artificially fight that effectively.

This!

There isn't much we can do, to fight this... You either go completely beserk on the ban/unban (which also doesn't make sense) or can't really pull this off, but i'm in favour of unbanning more controlissh/combo stuff

[W0lf]

That top 8 shows the problem of the format, spells on legs. Every new one printed is an autoinclude.

Am I just blind or isn`t there Combo, Control and Aggro in the Top 8?
Maybe I´m just too stupid to see the problem

[GoblinPiledriver]

In the new Top8 in the Highlander-Dm there is every archtype, but sometimes it`s hard to seperate them directly :

Swiss Place   Name        Deck          Archtype

1. Jonny Al-Saidi (UG-AggroControl)      : Aggro and/or Midrange
2. Sebastian Nötzel (UWGr-HotBant)       : Midrange and/or Control
3. Jochen Korbel (5c Aggro)              : Aggro
4. Marcus Freier (4c Goodstuff no black) : Midrange and/or Control
5. Patrick Richter (4c Goodstuff no red) : Control
6. Kai Thiemann (4c-Blood-Midrange)      : Midrange
7. Daniel Barenhoff (UW-Control)         : Control
8. Christoph Ohlrogge (WBG-PatternRector): Combo

[coldcrow]

That was the top 8 I was referring to, I see 7 aggro/control, one being "pure" aggro, 1 more controllish (u/w) and 1 aggro/combo. Seeing the problem? It is exactly as I wrote before, spells on legs. If you'd look at those lists you will see the same autoinclude creatures over and over. Sure you can steal some games with rogue decks, but the consistency of the usual aggro/control is just greater. So I'd like to see some cards unbanned.

[LasH]

I see it like MMD and coldcrow. After more thinking ppl are right that a ban of sfm would prolly not solve the problem. There are alrdy to many spells on legs out there.

And coldcrow is totally right. Im pretty sure all 4c decks run stfm or for example quasali pridemage. And even the combo deck in the top 8 can totally support these creatures. If u fail the combo, you still have a threat by beating/controlling the bord, that's why pattern rector is atm the most serious playble combo deck (lets wait and see for splinter twin). You dont manage to go in combo? Np you have a possible Plan B. I personally think the deck is a real good alternative to goodstuff atm.

As long as other decks dont get new stuff the meta top8 won't change much. Goodstuff decks run 80% the same cards and the top 8 shows that u can splash it different to be sucessfull, while the spells on legs dont change in any list.

I join the opinion to unban: Ywagmoth's will and wheel of fortune.

I'm not sure about "entomb" because of the combo engine with iona or woodfall primus, which could be to hard to deal with exspecially in turn 2. Monocolored decks alrdy dont play any role at all anymore (maybe WW, Sligh), but entomb iona reanimate is kinda game for any monocolored deck and would kill that archetype for tournaments in my opinion.

I still would reconsider the academy unban by banning candelabras and deserted temple, because these cards dont play any role at all atm, but academy would help other archetypes and its not more broken than other stuff without untap engine.

Trinisphere was stronger than academy in my testings i would not unban this card, because it can take away any play if it hits the bord early. Im simply no fan of turn 1-2 wins (Neither of workshop - sphere nor of entomb - iona- reanimate).

I also would ban wordly tutor or unban enlightened tutor. Enlightened tutor would favor control decks (humility, oath), it also would boost decks to get B2B. I think its to easy atm to play 4-5c without to fear punishments and the top 8 kinda reflect this.