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Stoneforge Mystic and JTMS are banned in Standard

Started by LasH, 20-06-2011, 05:10:31 PM

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Mythrandir

Quote from: Nastaboi on 27-06-2011, 10:48:11 PM
Cards that beat Thrun and are widely played in control decks include but are not limited to: Wrath, Damnation, Stoneforge Mystic (and its targets), Baneslayer, Exalted, titans, Moat, Humility, Natural Order, Bribery, Meloku, Masticore, Wurmcoil Engine... and all tutors that find them.

agreed.. you can tutor him up on turn 1, he only appears at turn 4, so, you can deal with it.

Banning tutors isn't the option IMO. I wonder how the council feels about banning a card on "repetitive game play", a bit like LFTL.

tonytahiti

#31
thanks for listing all the answers to thrun, but i think people know those answers. nothing new there. thrun is not the problem, stoneforge isnt.
i wasnt saying there is nothing you can do about thrun. of course there is. but you cant do anything about having to deal with him when the tutor him up first or second turn. thrun and stoneforge are just seen every freakin game. with those cheap tutors, you deal with those two annoyingly often, because they are the number one targets by a mile. against aggro you get stoneforge, against control you get stoneforge or thrun, yay! not. and when you always tutor for the same creatures, that feels dull. its fine that some creatures are way better than others, but having those tutors make them omnipresent, they make games feel a little repetitive. my five cents.


bottom line: there is a power creep seen in creatures lately, which make creature tutors stronger and stronger and variance and variety suffer abit. you deal with stoneforge or thrun too often considering its a freakin 100 card format. i am not saying ban all instant speed creature tutors, but in the long run, with more ridiculous creatures being printed they are going to be too powerful. same thing with gifts ungiven, i always felt like that card is unfair.
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Nastaboi

I can see your point about tutors, but right now only even remotely unfair creature that costs <6 is Mystic. Thrun is pretty bad and I have like one deck where I'd ever consider putting him in. If you can't deal with Thrun, you either have insane other matchups and just bite the bullet, or should consider retooling your deck. I cheer everytime when my opponent fetches Thrun with Wordly - actually I cheer every time they fetch anything that is not Mystic (or Sun Titan that brings it back from grave).
Quote0:13:51 [Nastaboi] Nastaboi plays Invincible Hymn from Hand
0:14:25 [Nastaboi] Nastaboi's life total is now 221 (+213)

tonytahiti

Yet again, you got off topic. The problem is not dealing with thrun specifically. Its about repetitive gameplay. But fyi, I was talking about control only when talking about thrun. And thrun is everything but bad against control. If you think Thrun is bad you either have a not too complex meta or you should consider retooling your deck..meaning putting thrun in it  ;).


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Sephiron

Quote from: tonytahiti on 28-06-2011, 11:55:08 AM
Yet again, you got off topic. The problem is not dealing with thrun specifically. Its about repetitive gameplay. But fyi, I was talking about control only when talking about thrun. And thrun is everything but bad against control. If you think Thrun is bad you either have a not too complex meta or you should consider retooling your deck..meaning putting thrun in it  ;).
Nobody is saying thrun is bad, it's just that thrun has it's answers, costs 4 mana and overall isn't as frightening as mystic. I myself have played against thrun quite a few times, but he isn't that big of a problem if you can chump/kill/race him, while against mystic he chooses best equipment and your only hope you have fast answer, because racing killing/racing isn't option if he got batterskull and if you have chump blockers relevant sword is fetched an you're in trouble (again not saying thrun isn't powerful just not as powerful as mystic, because In most situations mystic is just better).

LasH

The real danger for this format in my eyes is if cards like stoneforge mystic hit the table to much. Same goes around for Jace 2.0.

Imagine you could put 4 jace 2.0 in your deck, it would be by far not a bad choice. If you could play 4 times stoneforge mystic, you would do it.

Tutor's are kinda nothing else in our format than replacements for the strongest cards in your deck. I could imagine that some of you guys would agree with me, that tutoring stoneforge in the first turns is actually the best target. If you play demonic tutor, you'll probally get something like Jace 2.0 or Gifts ungiven (or now stoneforge), because these cards are not bad in general and kinda are the strongest non-specfic cards in the format (i mean if you don't run a strategy involving a combo). And its okay to have "stronger" cards. I think that might be a reason why alot of ppl dont know if stoneforge mystic is to powerful or not for a banhammer. I think its okay to have these cards, as long as they stay at one or 2 slots in your deck. Everything over 3 slots is to much, and futhermore, the tutor's are to cheap. Or any1 would consider playing Diabolic tutor in a non combo deck? There are not much lists running this card, because it all comes down to the costs of the tutor and the target. Stoneforge mystical has to many avaible tutor's and they are to cheap. Stoneforge by itself is to cheap designed, but thats offtopic. Or any1 running Stonehewer Giant?

So if you enable for example mystical tutor, i think it would hit mostly something like force of will or manadrain, because u always wanna have these cards on your hand. And mystical tutor is banned..

I don't understand the difference between these tutor's anymore. Why are creature tutor's so less dangerous than mystical or enlightned tutor? 3 Years ago, i would totally agree to the banlist. But now, with all the "perfect" creatures out there, i think its really time to rethink this, because tutor's choice is really restricted to like 3 different cards. But the same goes of for every ohter banned tutor.

Its not good if this format can run the most dangerous cards to constantly. Imagine every game the possibilty of a: mana drain turn 2-mystical tutor, Winter orb/oath turn 2 - enlightned tutor, stoneforge mystic turn 2 - worldy tutor...not?. Thats the reason for me to ban the instant 1 mana tutors from mirage.


Kristian

Quote from: LasH on 28-06-2011, 05:08:09 PMI don't understand the difference between these tutor's anymore. Why are creature tutor's so less dangerous than mystical or enlightned tutor? 3 Years ago, i would totally agree to the banlist. But now, with all the "perfect" creatures out there, i think its really time to rethink this, because tutor's choice is really restricted to like 3 different cards. But the same goes of for every ohter banned tutor.
There are no difference in my opinion.
There can be only one!

W0lf

Quote from: Tiggupiru on 27-06-2011, 10:56:50 PM
It's a card that keeps getting better and better every time they print an equipment, so I am pretty sure banning is inevitable.
The same is true for Gifts Ungiven.
Gifts keeps getting better and better every time they print ANYTHING.
Still it`s not getting banned, so even considering a Stoneforge ban is completly retarded as long as Gifts Ungiven stays in the Format.



Kristian

Quote from: W0lf on 28-06-2011, 06:33:16 PM
Quote from: Tiggupiru on 27-06-2011, 10:56:50 PM
It's a card that keeps getting better and better every time they print an equipment, so I am pretty sure banning is inevitable.
The same is true for Gifts Ungiven.
Gifts keeps getting better and better every time they print ANYTHING.
Still it`s not getting banned, so even considering a Stoneforge ban is completly retarded as long as Gifts Ungiven stays in the Format.
Gifts Ungiven is not as powerful as Stoneforge Mystic in early to mid game. Please don't belittle other's opinion by calling their thoughts on the subject retarded.
There can be only one!

Tiggupiru

I don't think Mystical into Mana Drain is even remotely sick. Once you know opponent has it, Mana Drain becomes significantly worse. Obviously still good, but it's still a reactive card. Same goes for Winter Orb, which is like the worst play ever on turn two anyway.

2nd-turn Stoneforge is much, much more scarier. It's also the only card you mentioned that gives back the -1CA from the topdeck tutors.

Maggot

I think either Wordly should be banned or Mystical and Elighted should be unbanned.
Either one is fine for me.

If Call and Vampiric are on the same level as the three cards mentioned above, I really can´t say atm but my feeling sais that if Worldly was banned Call should also be banned. If Mystical and Enlighted are unbanned I don´t think that Vampiric can be unbanned.

Cheers

Maggot

LasH

Quote from: Tiggupiru on 28-06-2011, 08:09:26 PM
I don't think Mystical into Mana Drain is even remotely sick. Once you know opponent has it, Mana Drain becomes significantly worse. Obviously still good, but it's still a reactive card. Same goes for Winter Orb, which is like the worst play ever on turn two anyway.

2nd-turn Stoneforge is much, much more scarier. It's also the only card you mentioned that gives back the -1CA from the topdeck tutors.

Yes, i agree with you in all points. Winter orb was a very bad example. I just named that card because i think to remember, that this card was a reason to ban enlightened tutor.

And i agree with maggot aswell ;-)

Sephiron

Quote from: Maggot on 28-06-2011, 08:47:03 PM
I think either Wordly should be banned or Mystical and Elighted should be unbanned.
Either one is fine for me.

If Call and Vampiric are on the same level as the three cards mentioned above, I really can´t say atm but my feeling sais that if Worldly was banned Call should also be banned. If Mystical and Enlighted are unbanned I don´t think that Vampiric can be unbanned.

Cheers

Maggot


I agree for the most part of this statement, because my feeling is that mystical and enlightened tutors aren't as bad anymore as when they were initially banned (one of the main problems for enlightened tutor, it got survival). So It most likely wouldn't break anything unbanning them.

My biggest problems with the banlist is that with all the new cards some banned cards aren't as strong or don't need to be banned:
-Jitte: It's strong but with abudance of artifact removal and arguably stronger equipments, is it really banworthy? Consider this mystc, sofi and batterskull. Is jitte thatmuch stronger than the others? I think mystic is around the same powerlevel of bokeness as jitte is, so i don't see point of one being banned and other not (except that you dont want to keep both in format at the same time, but then again batterskull kinda breaks things).
-Enlightened tutor (And mystical to lesser extent): Nothing broken happens even if you unban them, because 1 more tutor for combo-decks doesn't change much and since enlioghtened tutor can't get survival and as people pointed out winter orb is nowadays just bad, so it's not as bad anymore. On the other side worldly tutor is getting much stronger than either of the 2 since guys are nowdays answers to anything.
-Entomb: again with no loam in the format this isn't as bad as it used to be. It only supports combo and reanimate strategies, which are currently too weak so it wont harm people to help them a bit (maybe then we will finally see some relic of progenituses, because I haven't seen any dedicated graveyard hate cards in the decks since loam got banned  ;) )
-Life from the Loam (replacing gifts and maybe intuition): with no LoA it's not as bad as it was before banning and without gifts it won't become war of attrition on who gets bored first. Loam is mostly relevant in control/midrange mirrors which are dominated by gifts anyway and it kinda helps against mystic (More probability of maze of ith sticking around).

I am pointing those out in hopes that at least some changes would be made to the banlist, so it would liven up the format. Cheers  :)

Mythrandir

Quote from: tonytahiti on 28-06-2011, 01:24:00 AM

bottom line: there is a power creep seen in creatures lately, which make creature tutors stronger and stronger and variance and variety suffer abit. you deal with stoneforge or thrun too often considering its a freakin 100 card format. i am not saying ban all instant speed creature tutors, but in the long run, with more ridiculous creatures being printed they are going to be too powerful. same thing with gifts ungiven, i always felt like that card is unfair.

Also, spoils mulligan affect the number of times you see stoneforge t2, so...

Gitfs, after LFTL being banned gets you completely different things in different decks and in different situations. Unless you're playing combo, your gifts will probably vary from game to game.

tonytahiti

#44
i mean i am absolutely fine with mystical tutor and enlightened tutor being unbanned but i dont think thats a good idea when gifts ungiven is legal. a one mana tutor for the most powerful spell in the game doesnt seem healthy.

+enlightened
+mystical
-gifts
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