Stoneforge Mystic and JTMS are banned in Standard

[Helle]

Stoneforge is very strong indeed, but I don't think it needs to be banned. One cant really compare it to Jitte.
1) The removal for Jitte is much more special: Artifact removal is less often played than common creature removal for a toughness 2 guy. Every deck plays creature removal. Red decks for example play burn to immediately kill Stoneforge whereas they just get wrecked by Jitte.
2) Stoneforge generates exactly +1 card advantage, wheres Jitte can kill many creatures.
3) Stoneforge has summoning sickness, Jitte is played and active immediately on turn 4, often deciding the game in the aggro mirror.

//offtopic
Reducing decksize to 60 would change format. Decks would be more powerful (especially combo) and therefore the games probably would be shorter. This means 60min per round would result less often in a draw. Even though, 100 card is just what makes the character of the format. I don't think I like that idea.

[Nastaboi]

1) The removal for Jitte is much more special: Artifact removal is less often played than common creature removal for a toughness 2 guy. Every deck plays creature removal. Red decks for example play burn to immediately kill Stoneforge whereas they just get wrecked by Jitte.

With Stoneforge fetching an equipment, you'll still need an artifact removat to deal with the equipment.

2) Stoneforge generates exactly +1 card advantage, wheres Jitte can kill many creatures.

Actually when you fetch Batterskull you get +2 ca (equipment+token), and more cards every time you bounce and replay it. But when evaluating whether a card is good or not, you should look further form the concept of card advantage. Stoneforge gives tempo and tutoring, both of which have been key considerations when deciding bans or restrictions. I have heard no one complaining on Tidings ever. Lesser but still important abilities are getting around counters and sorcery speed removal and being a creature thus easily reusable (blinking, Sun Titan, reanimation etc.).

[Nastaboi]

I won yesterday a game where my opponent had Stoneforge and not much else. I resolved in that game Demonic, Mana Drain, Natural Order, Gifts and Maelstrom Pulse among others, and it still didn't feel easy. So you can win against it if you happen to have four other unfair cards and play them well.

[W0lf]

QQQQQ Stoneforge OP

delicious tears, i like  

Besides that, please stop making a fool of yourself you´re talking utter bullshit.
Thank you

[Mythrandir]

I think this one isnt' broken per si but it bordelines it. It gives you CA, pressure on the table. It's cheap, splashble (if it were WW instead of 1W we porbably wouldnt be having this discussion...).

Is also tutors a card which is difficult to deal: equipments! Even if you don't play with skull you still have multiple swords, including SoFI.

The problem runs deeper than this single card: cards like pridemage are also problematic, because WOTC has decided to put everything on a stick meaning you really haven't to choose between steelshaper's gift and a creature or a naturalize and a creature.

They aren't broken, but they are annoying and specially with stoneforge games are starting to become centered around them. But there was once a time we games were centered around playing gifts (unbanned) and LFTL (banned). So i think we should wait a little more and see if the meta reacts to it.

[LasH]

QQQQQ Stoneforge OP

delicious tears, i like  

Besides that, please stop making a fool of yourself you´re talking utter bullshit.
Thank you

Nice comment. Can you at least try to bring up arguments? Why is he talking bullshit? I had several times equal situations.

@ Mythrandir

I think you might be right. But gifts hit the table on turn 4. Thats a crucial difference. That's why i also think that jace 2.0 is not a problem for the format, but mighty 2 drops are more scary than turn 4 drops.

[Sephiron]

I think this one isnt' broken per si but it bordelines it. It gives you CA, pressure on the table. It's cheap, splashble (if it were WW instead of 1W we porbably wouldnt be having this discussion...).

Is also tutors a card which is difficult to deal: equipments! Even if you don't play with skull you still have multiple swords, including SoFI.

The problem runs deeper than this single card: cards like pridemage are also problematic, because WOTC has decided to put everything on a stick meaning you really haven't to choose between steelshaper's gift and a creature or a naturalize and a creature.

They aren't broken, but they are annoying and specially with stoneforge games are starting to become centered around them. But there was once a time we games were centered around playing gifts (unbanned) and LFTL (banned). So i think we should wait a little more and see if the meta reacts to it.

While that is true, I don't see problem with these creatures most of the time, since with most of the cheap ones it's still 1v1 the scary creatures are the ones that are cheap and provide CA, and wizards haven't printed a lot of those (like dark confidant, dark confidant, witness, lavamancer and of those only mystic provides immediate card advantage and only mystic got banned in standart).

While mystic isn't autowin, but the games where he comes t2 are a lot more boring, since they become more on how to deal with opponents batterskull than how to kill opponent. So my argument on banning mystic isn't solely based on powerlevel, but also on the "fun" factor.

P.S. On the other hand with some other bannings/unbannings metagame could be shaken enough so that mystic wouldn't be as bad (for example banning gifts, unbanning loam -> more maze of iths (or at least more consistent) -> swords/batterskull become weaker).

[Mythrandir]

By unbanning LFTL you go from games being centered around stoneforge and start having games centered around LFTL (at least in more controlish matchups).

Not saying we should ban him... just saying he's a cheap little annoying bastard!

[Sephiron]

By unbanning LFTL you go from games being centered around stoneforge and start having games centered around LFTL (at least in more controlish matchups).

Not saying we should ban him... just saying he's a cheap little annoying bastard!

That may be so, but my point is that as it is Highlander is becoming stagnant and centered too much around mystic. I do not want to argue about banning mystic or not, ultimately it's councils decision, all I'm saying is that where I'm from everybody is sick of mystic and don't want to see it.

P.s. Currently controllish matchups end up in the victory of one who resolves gifts first anyway so it's not that different and loam can be answered by gravehate(which admittedly most decks don't play currently because there isn't anything relevant to hate). Without LoA and gifts beside it loam isn't as broken as it was before it's banning. But then again that's only my view and if you have tested it extensively then I won't argue. I just want format which would be fun to play. 

[Maggot]

Before you consider banning SFM, please read the explenation for the ban.
It got banned because CawBlade dominated the meta like no other deck before except Ravager Affinity. This dominance caused a decrease of player numbers from PTQs to FNMs.
So far I can´t see this trend for Highlander tournaments, at least in Berlin. Actually I notice a different trend here, we have a very steady player base with increasing numbers. Maybe the increase was actually caused by the dominance of CB in standard...

With all the spells on legs I believe it´s time to ban the instant creature tutors, I can´t find any reason why Mystical, Vampiric and Enlighted should be banned but Worldly and Eladarim´s Call should be legal as they can get you an answer to nearly everything nowadays, an uncounterable, hexproof regenerating thread, a silverbullet or combo piece.

Or just unban the other tutors for fairness reasons...

Cheers

Maggot
 

 

[LasH]

With all the spells on legs I believe it´s time to ban the instant creature tutors, I can´t find any reason why Mystical, Vampiric and Enlighted should be banned but Worldly and Eladarim´s Call should be legal as they can get you an answer to nearly everything nowadays, an uncounterable, hexproof regenerating thread, a silverbullet or combo piece.

Or just unban the other tutors for fairness reasons...

Cheers

Maggot
 

 

THIS is SO true. There is nothing to add. Maybe that would alrdy "balance" stoneforge out.

[W0lf]

agreed

[tonytahiti]

i dont know about eladamris call, but i also feel that on the play first turn wordly tutor for thrun is pretty brutal against control. there is just nothing you can do about it, if you dont have force. and that there are not many answers to thrun is obvious. creatures get better, creature tutors get better too. the argument is valid.

edit: you can misstep it. but that card is only borderline playable imo.

[Nastaboi]

Cards that beat Thrun and are widely played in control decks include but are not limited to: Wrath, Damnation, Stoneforge Mystic (and its targets), Baneslayer, Exalted, titans, Moat, Humility, Natural Order, Bribery, Meloku, Masticore, Wurmcoil Engine... and all tutors that find them.

[Tiggupiru]

I much rather ban the cards that are the problem, rather than ban all the tutors and then proceed to feel robbed every time my opponent draws the offending card.

What comes to the actual banning: I am unsure if Mystic should be banned right now. Most players seem to either favor for it, or they admit it's a really good card, but not quite good enough to ban. It's a card that keeps getting better and better every time they print an equipment, so I am pretty sure banning is inevitable. It's one really good equipment away from being way too good. I've also begun to splash white for many of my decks solely because of this card, so I really understand if it gets a hit from the hammer.