Poll / Opinions etc

[so_not]

And to make one thing clear. The higher amount of control decks is in no way connected to the free mulligan, it is obviously because of the tolarian unban which is a good thing. Without cards like academy or oath there would be no reason to play any type of control deck besides soft u/r nonbasic hate.

This in fact is a false conclusion as free mulligan (compared to spoils) greatly benefits decks that are less dependent on perfect mana curve.

[W0lf]

Control got weakened by the free mulligan simply because it gets to easily lucked out by fast starts as the control player must sometimes keep a hand with too many lategame cards and or special synergy cards etc. It is way harder to play control decks now than it was before this is a simple fact carved into stone that nether you or anyone else can denie.

[so_not]

i completely agree with tabris on this. if there was no 4-of wasteland in legacy, every deck would play 5 colors. there should actually be more wastelands in highlander. and i really don't mean to be offensive, but i cannot take anyone's opinion seriously, who only asks for cards for their deck to be unbanned and for cards they hate playing against to be banned.

try to look at the bigger picture. i did considerably well in hanau and i'm still very unhappy with the direction the meta is taking since the rule change. stop being so fucking selfish, please. i don't wanna have to move to victoria.

Yes if there were more actual Wastelands available in the card pool the problem would not be as severe as playing around these cards would increase your chances of winning. As there are only 1 Wasteland in each deck, you never should mulligan your hand if it was otherwise keepable but loses to Wasteland. On the other hand you should definitely build your deck with the aforementioned hate cards (B2B, moon etc.) in mind and play around those cards. Wasteland is just a card that randomly gets you even if you had the perfect two color manabase but suddenly can't play around it due to inherent random nature of the game. In this format Wasteland is just too close a Strip Mine that it's not fun

[so_not]

Control got weakened by the free mulligan simply because it gets to easily lucked out by fast starts as the control player must sometimes keep a hand with too many lategame cards and or special synergy cards etc. It is way harder to play control decks now than it was before this is a simple fact carved into stone that nether you or anyone else can denie.

But there are less those lucky fast starts because aggro decks can't always fix their curve and they get more punished from having clunky starting hands than control decks. Just play control, it's actually easier than ever!

[W0lf]

To make the format more diverse again it should be considered to unban more cards to boost control decks.

Library of alexandria, mystical tutor and strip mine come to mind.

I'm sure, if the free mulligan stays, it will be needed to unban more broken stuff zo even the odds between goodstuff and control again. Aggro would profit from a decreased amount of goodstuff decks so the System could work better again.

[carte_blanche]

Back to the topic...

Name:
carte_blanche (no clear names in the web... if you're so curious, ask the NSA)

How do you rate the banned list?
9

Which mulligan?
For the time being, I'd like to test the free mulligan a bit more. -> I like this one slightly better than the Spoils mulligan.

Free Mulligan on a scale...
8 (the Spoils one would get a 7.9,though.)

How often do you play HL?
Unfortunately just twice a month or so (time issues).

How often have you played on a HL-GP / -Cup?
Never.

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why?
None for the time beeing. For me it's too early to make a comment on that / I'd like to be patient with the ban hammer until the dust of the Academy unban has settled.

Why not Oath of Druids? - Most of the time I try to land an Oath turn 2 without protection, it will get handeled. Most of the decks are either very fast or very adaptable nowadays. Even though the meta is creature-dominated (at least I got the impression), and Oath obviously is an 'anti-creature' card, there are not too many decks in the tops that abuse Oath (or at least far less than one would expect if the card is as broken as some people claim it is in the HL format). Sure, there are some but compared to the results of other archetypes, I cannot see that such decks dominate in any way. Even though if an Oath deck is played, it's not given, that you'll end up with a very good result. You still have to struggle for it... just as with any other deck.

Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why?
Maybe Entomb - I'm not too afraid of Reanimator decks, since we got two new and strong toys against such decks that are used in a wide range of decks already. Entomb, on the other hand, might be a nice toy for control / combo decks. Especially combo decks don't seem to be very popular (I consider Reanimator to be a combo deck by the way) and / or successful.


@council: Double thumbs up for your efforts to keep us pleased and the format interesting and challenging!

[Doks]

I AM very upset by this post Doks. How can you realy asking for a ban of pop, b2b or blood moon when we just had an HL Cup with the dominance of ONE single deck (for the record I dont think that deck is a problem but the mentality of the players).

In addition to that: the random win generated by wasteland IS EXACTLY what our format needs. Players need to be punished because the mechanics of the game itself is asking for that kind of hate. People have to lose games more frequently bc of holding 2 land hands with nothing but business. As long as people play 35 lands or even less they need to feel what that means stats-wise. (assuming we still use the inferior free mulligan).

I heard the 4c blood player held a 2 land hand in the semifinals with aether vial + hymn to tourarch (no double black on hand) and was on the draw against an ultra aggressive naya deck and is KEEPING that hand bc he thinks "every creature I draw is online". That kind of thinking needs to be purged and some cards help us to do that (if the variance is on vacation for that deck) (and just to be clear there are some situations were you have to be greedy bc you have to play your outs but this is not the kind of situation. One drop one Drop two drop and that would be game, easy as that)

There's no need to be upset if you read carefully. I see this evaluation as a great opportunity to communicate what I think is worth looking at (which is why I gave some detailed explanations and called more than 5 cards). The named ones are not candidates I want to see 100% gone with the next ban/unban phase, I just like to point out what I think can be kind of problematic in the near future and should be looked at.

Regarding PoP/B2B/BM: I am saying that one can see a problem in the fact that a single card outright wins a game versus certain decks while being next to useless against others. Obviously it's good having them to keep multicolour in check (which is where I agree with you and currently it seems that we need those anti non-basic strategies to be part of the metagame more than ever), but the exmaple of U/R non-basic hate points at a general problem of the format: there is no real incentive to play only one or two colours. Instead of fighting top strategies with narrow anti-cards (is this not a sign of a flawed playing environment?), we need a general solution (although I think that banning fetchlands is not the right one, but that's another disussion).

About Wasteland: A random Turn 1/2 Wasteland can screw every kind of deck (and therefore it's not specifically needed to "punish multicolour"), no matter what, and that is where my criticism is based on after the introduction of the Free Mulligan rule: You don't have to play one of the current top tier multicolour decks to lose a game to a random early Wasteland. People now have to keep mediocre hands more often and those weaker hands appear more often, even if you run enough mana sources. Say I have a hand I'd keep if I knew I wasn't eating a Wasteland in the first turns. I know there is 1 out of 100 cards in my opponent's deck that will roll me over, what do I do? This is not Legacy where I can show clever play by avoiding a potential mana screw, so losing those games is just based on pure luck - does my opponent have the Wasteland or not? Then again, I agree to that extent that we probably need a cheap way to get rid of strong utility lands.

€dit: so_not put summed it up pretty well:

Yes if there were more actual Wastelands available in the card pool the problem would not be as severe as playing around these cards would increase your chances of winning. As there are only 1 Wasteland in each deck, you never should mulligan your hand if it was otherwise keepable but loses to Wasteland. On the other hand you should definitely build your deck with the aforementioned hate cards (B2B, moon etc.) in mind and play around those cards. Wasteland is just a card that randomly gets you even if you had the perfect two color manabase but suddenly can't play around it due to inherent random nature of the game. In this format Wasteland is just too close a Strip Mine that it's not fun

Peace.

[MMD]

(assuming we still use the inferior free mulligan).

I am very sorry to read that. I hoped that members of the council could communicate in a more objective way, at least in the official forum.

My experiences on the Free Mulligan rule are contrary to your opinion. I tried to get feedback/opinions on the tournament about the mulligan as I was curious about other players experiences and ALL players confirmed that the Free mulligan has improved our game. So my personal poll is about 10:0 for the Free Mulligan but I have not talked to someone from Berlin yet.  

I would bet all my bucks on the Free Mulligan if there would be a new poll.

Some words about the banned list even I have already answered the poll on the tournament:

1. I think that non-basic hate is the glue of the format, even more important in the future. These cards keep the multicolour decks at bay. Loosing against it should only remind you that there is more out there than 3-4C good stuff. Reminder: High risk/high reward.
"If once you start down the dark path, forever it will dominate your destiny"

2. My opinion is that the Banned List is quite ok, except that Oath of Druids, Tolarian Academy, Mana Drain, Demonic Tutor and Mishra´s Workshop burst the power level. The question for me is if the other decks can keep those cards in check. I doubt this at least for Oath and Academy (pls don´t refer to the HLGP Top 8, this is just one big tournament and players choose a deck they are used to play to reach Top8 such as me).

[haju]

Yes if there were more actual Wastelands available in the card pool the problem would not be as severe as playing around these cards would increase your chances of winning. As there are only 1 Wasteland in each deck, you never should mulligan your hand if it was otherwise keepable but loses to Wasteland. On the other hand you should definitely build your deck with the aforementioned hate cards (B2B, moon etc.) in mind and play around those cards. Wasteland is just a card that randomly gets you even if you had the perfect two color manabase but suddenly can't play around it due to inherent random nature of the game. In this format Wasteland is just too close a Strip Mine that it's not fun

There is exactly one of each non-basic in each deck. So this argument can be stated for every card. [SilverBulletAgainstTheDeckOnePlays] is to strong, if my opponent has it I loose. In my opinion, if a manabase is perfect, if there is such a thing, then a wasteland should not disrupt it too much. Of course it's a drawback but otherwise Wasteland would not be a good and therefore played card.

I don't get it why, after every big tournament, there is so much talk about the banlist. Mostly it reads like: A deck with a good matchup against my petdeck/deck I played is available so please do something about it. Thanks to the new mulligan and the current ban list, there are more decks playable then ever at least in my humble opinion. Why is the percentage of the Izzet decks in the top 16 greater than the percentage of the 4c Aggro decks? Maybe because they have a positive matchup against these types of decks? There is a funny thing called meta game. If each deck normaly had a 50% matchup against everything I would agree that something has to be done, but that's simply not the case.

2. My opinion is that the Banned List is quite ok, except that Oath of Druids, Tolarian Academy, Mana Drain, Demonic Tutor and Mishra´s Workshop burst the power level. The question for me is if the other decks can keep those cards in check. I doubt this at least for Oath and Academy (pls don´t refer to the HLGP Top 8, this is just one big tournament and players choose a deck they are used to play to reach Top8 such as me).

These are strong cards without doubt, but I don't think there is any reason why they should be banned. Creatures are getting better and better with nearly every new set. That these cards burst the power level will not be true for very long (I personly doubt the do right now, they are around the best cards, but there always will be best cards.

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

Worldly Tutor: Either have these CMC 1 tutors allowed alltogether or ban them all (with the exception of the black one maybe). Each archetype profits tremendously from 1 or 2 of them, so why have them not all available / banned for fairness reasonings?  

Either you are missing Worldly Tutor or you just want the green one to be banned. I don't think each card of a cycle needs to be either banned or unbanned for fairness. They all give access to different resources which creates a huge difference in the power level. Otherwise either Ancestral Recall needs to be unbanned or Dark Ritual, Giant Growth, Healing Salve and Lightning Bolt needs to be banned as they are also part of a cycle and give you 3 of one resource.

Regarding the poll:

How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?

9, as there is always something which can be done to improve the format. I'm not sure what it is, but I think this is one of the most enjoyable banned-list since I started playing this format.

How do you rate the highlander mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?

10, after the first shock (I really liked the Spoils mulligan) this is the best thing which happened to this format lately.

How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules) in average

At least once a week.

How often have you played on a HL-GP?

1

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

True-Name Nemesis, this card is so #@!%$* annoying. It's boring to play with and against. It's the random win out of nowhere. Sorry to be so harsh but this card is a perfect example of a well thought but poorly executed card design. It works for multilayer but in a one on one game it's just stupid.

Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

No time to test, sorry.

[cron]

Name:
cron / Sascha

How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?
9

Which mulligan-rule do you prefer?
Free mulligan

How do you rate the free mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?
9

How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules)
Only 2-3 times a month

How often have you played on a HL-GP / -Cup?
I played the first 6 HL Grand Prix in a row.
Unfortunately after that our group torn apart and I am not able to make it alone to a HL Grand Prix.

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)
True-Name Nemesis - the card is dominating Legacy

Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)
Entomb - push Combo and Reanimator
Mystical Tutor - push Combo and Control
Natural Order - i think this ban was a little bit hasty and not necessary

[coldcrow]

Name:
coldcrow

How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?
7

Which mulligan-rule do you prefer?
Free mulligan

How do you rate the free mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?
8

How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules)
online almost daily

How often have you played on a HL-GP / -Cup?
none

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)
none

Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)
NO, mind twist, stoneforge, birthing pod, mystical tutor, grindstone, survival

[coldcrow]

Yes if there were more actual Wastelands available in the card pool the problem would not be as severe as playing around these cards would increase your chances of winning. As there are only 1 Wasteland in each deck, you never should mulligan your hand if it was otherwise keepable but loses to Wasteland. On the other hand you should definitely build your deck with the aforementioned hate cards (B2B, moon etc.) in mind and play around those cards. Wasteland is just a card that randomly gets you even if you had the perfect two color manabase but suddenly can't play around it due to inherent random nature of the game. In this format Wasteland is just too close a Strip Mine that it's not fun

This represents a whole vein of thinking that compares HL directly to the 4 of formats. It isn't. The 1-of nature will lead to blowouts with a comparatively higher chance than in the regular formats. You have to embrace this, because on the other side of the coin are the bannings. If you get annoyed with seemingly random blowouts (nonbasic hosers, drain on 3 mana spell + followup, academy start etc.) there is no end to the banlist, until you banned all the older cards with a high powerlevel.
If you play too few lands then you will run into the 2 land hands more often than not. But this comes with the trade for more bussiness. But I guess I don't have to tell you this.

If anything there are way too many cards on the banlist. P9 + fast mana belongs there, but not much else, in my opinion.
OR and that is also a viable route: Ban all the high power cards, e.g. academy, oath, drain, demonic, worldly, eladamri, and so on. This will ultimately lead to a meta like goodstuff vs izzet vs rdw vs GU/x. Combo will almost disappear except for creature based ones, but without the tutors it won't be as good as before.

Where do you draw the line between good or bad for the format? Do pricetags come into view aswell?

Edit: I meant blowouts will feel more awkward, cause of the 1-of a kind.

[so_not]

Yes if there were more actual Wastelands available in the card pool the problem would not be as severe as playing around these cards would increase your chances of winning. As there are only 1 Wasteland in each deck, you never should mulligan your hand if it was otherwise keepable but loses to Wasteland. On the other hand you should definitely build your deck with the aforementioned hate cards (B2B, moon etc.) in mind and play around those cards. Wasteland is just a card that randomly gets you even if you had the perfect two color manabase but suddenly can't play around it due to inherent random nature of the game. In this format Wasteland is just too close a Strip Mine that it's not fun

This represents a whole vein of thinking that compares HL directly to the 4 of formats. It isn't. The 1-of nature will lead to blowouts with a comparatively higher chance than in the regular formats. You have to embrace this, because on the other side of the coin are the bannings. If you get annoyed with seemingly random blowouts (nonbasic hosers, drain on 3 mana spell + followup, academy start etc.) there is no end to the banlist, until you banned all the older cards with a high powerlevel.
If you play too few lands then you will run into the 2 land hands more often than not. But this comes with the trade for more bussiness. But I guess I don't have to tell you this.

If anything there are way too many cards on the banlist. P9 + fast mana belongs there, but not much else, in my opinion.
OR and that is also a viable route: Ban all the high power cards, e.g. academy, oath, drain, demonic, worldly, eladamri, and so on. This will ultimately lead to a meta like goodstuff vs izzet vs rdw vs GU/x. Combo will almost disappear except for creature based ones, but without the tutors it won't be as good as before.

Where do you draw the line between good or bad for the format? Do pricetags come into view aswell?

Edit: I meant blowouts will feel more awkward, cause of the 1-of a kind.

Just to clarify, I have no problem with Moons, B2B or Mana Drain or powerful cards in general. Like I have already stated Wasteland is an autoinclude. Other powerful cards all have spesific conditions under which they work and you can prepare for them. If someone plays a mountain, you should prepare to face non-basic hate. If your opponent plays Island, you should prepare for counter magic in general, Mana Drain being of course the one with most blow out potential. And even then those cards are spells and require mana, those are factors that can be easily disrupted which is not the case with Wasteland.

[Demppa]

Name/Nick: Henri Särkkä / Demppa

How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?
7

Which mulligan-rule do you prefer?
Free Mulligan

How do you rate the free mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?
9

How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules)
several times weekly / once per week

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)
Dark Depths - I don't completely agree with people saying this is way too hard to disrupt, but I do agree it's a one-card combo with Primeval Titan or Knight of the Reliquary and leads to too many "oops, I win" situations.

Demonic Tutor - Many decks splash black just for Deathrite Shaman and Demonic Tutor. Furthermore, Vampiric Tutor is banned. As someone else said, either ban or unban both. I feel that having both banned is the better option.

True-Name Nemesis - Very (too) difficult to have an answer to. Makes a lot of matchups a simple game of who can get one into play.

Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)
Entomb - Heavy graveyard synergy decks haven't been resulting high in tournaments as of late. Giving them a new powerful tool might give room for both existing and new decks.

Mystical Tutor - With the ban of Demonic Tutor the unban of Mystical would be acceptable.

Natural Order - I think the biggest problem with Natural Order was Depths. Would love to see this unbanned again.

[Vazdru]

results concerning Mulligan

   

Free Mulligan	33	61,11%
Spoils Mulligan	18	33,33%
Road to Paris	0	0,00%
no vote *	3	5,56%
sum	54

* one vote for commander mulligan / one for overdraw +2 / one abstention