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Author Topic: Poll / Opinions etc    (Read 115782 times)
MMD
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« Reply #30 on: 21-04-2011, 07:08:06 AM »

I keep wondering why people completely ignore the fact that the most wanted cards for banning ALL do not occur in the last GP's top 8...

If at all something must be done, then it is to nerf creature-based aggro. Unbanning balance - and banning Zuran Orb in the course (so Balance does not become Staxx cheapest Armageddon) - could be an attempt at boosting control AND combo likewise. I'd also suggest unbanning Mystical Tutor. Maybe even Vampiric Tutor... This would also solve the "problem" of explainability why Demonic Tutor is not banned. Think about it. The direction the game currently develops towards is everything else than healthy...

Only looking on GP's is IMO not enough (but even there I assume you will see plenty of Drains). We should analyse more tournaments. Tournament data base administrator any one? Do we have enough tournaments to analyse (e.g. Iserlohn) or is Highlander just kitchen table magic?

Many formats are driven to creature combat due to WotC strategy, so this will certainly also affect Highlander. I don´t see a problem here.

I don´t understand why so many people call that control is dead. It is very easy to build a Control deck which destroys aggro (even without Drain and Demonic). The only problem is to tweak and metagame because an anti-aggro list will horribly loose against combo and draw-go. So as long as combo and draw-go is weak (which I think is currently the case) you can win tournaments with anti-aggro control lists. The main threat for Control are IMO the new non-creature cards (Hello Planeswalkers!)





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« Reply #31 on: 21-04-2011, 08:03:07 AM »

I would be able to analyse a deck lists from tournements i get..
So if you have decklists from your tournement just send it to me (pm me for email adress)
I will make meta-game breakdowns and will post them here in forum, if we have a criticial mass perhaps conclusions about the format will be more fact based...
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« Reply #32 on: 21-04-2011, 04:48:31 PM »

Zirendaril
So you think if a card is not too powerful or format-breaking but still very expensive, it should be banned so the people who own and play the cards can't have the fun with it and will have to sell their cards?

I don't think any card should be banned on money issues. The game should be as healthy as possible and not as cheap as possible.

Actually, imperial seal is banned because of money issues (i think there were a post somewhere about this...), since in most cases it's a wors DT.
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« Reply #33 on: 21-04-2011, 08:26:16 PM »

Well in Berlin we have every week a tournament with like 14-20 players. Most of the decks are competetive I would say three to four decks are not that good but if you want I can post the standings. Dont know about the decklists bc we dont need them on this level and most ppl modify their lists very often.
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« Reply #34 on: 21-04-2011, 11:34:07 PM »

I also don't see much problem in current meta. Agro is obviously strong and versatile. It has card advantage and can respond to many different threats without loosing much tempo. To hose agro is the easiest way to beat it. There are soo much good anti agro cards, that there is no need of unbaning any card from the banned list, just because of this situation.Cards are out there, but nobody is playing them. That is the problem. I think, meta will adapt to current state. Until games don't end on T2 or T3 and stays interactive and fun, and both players has figting chance - I call it healthy format.

I think the lack of combo is caused not that much, that combo is weak and unplayeable, but because of playing combo in HL is the most challenging and difficult way to go. Much easier is to take safe way, that is now - playing agro. Contrary of the legacy, where combo can be quite stable, that it is possingle to go off from starting 7, is is not our case here in HL. It can be quite difficult to find correct pieces in time and at the same time the combo player has to defend himself against oponent. The next thing, decklist of combodeck is usually tweaked to fit playing style of its author, so adapting one is not usually the right way to go. On the other hand, it is not that much difficult to adapt agro decklist, where most cards are redundant.

Unbaning some card just because agro is everywhere is bad imho. If you unban for example mystical tutor - how much it helps combo and not helps bant based midrage decks? The same think is vampiric tutor here... like 5c agro doesn't exist.

Cards should be banned on the power level and not because of they are expensive. Next category of cards suited for banning is cards that say - Crew u I win - and the conditions of wining are not difficult to achive.

I cant stand whinning of players that say - Boost stax(or any different strategy), it is weak and everyone beats us. If your deck is weak and has many bad matchups - dont play the deck! There is plenty of different and potent strategies out there.
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Kassow-Rossing
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« Reply #35 on: 22-04-2011, 12:04:45 AM »

Actually, imperial seal is banned because of money issues (i think there were a post somewhere about this...), since in most cases it's a wors DT.

It sounds to me like Imperial Seal shouldn't be banned then. Why ban a card because of money issues? That has nothing to do with the game.


Cards should be banned on the power level and not because of they are expensive. Next category of cards suited for banning is cards that say - Crew u I win - and the conditions of wining are not difficult to achive.

I cant stand whinning of players that say - Boost stax(or any different strategy), it is weak and everyone beats us. If your deck is weak and has many bad matchups - dont play the deck! There is plenty of different and potent strategies out there.

I agree on so many levels! Especially about the fact that we shouldn't unban stuff like Mystical Tutor because of the fact that control is behind. I can't seem to find a quotation where a player says something about his own deck. I am a Staxx player and I haven't read or written anything about boosting Staxx because Staxx shouldn't be good enough. Maybe you're confusing it with the unbanning of Tolarian Academy because the argument for banning no longer apply? Neither have I heard another player write anything about his or her own deck. Cards should be banned for power levels or for balance. Not for money issues.
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« Reply #36 on: 22-04-2011, 09:04:11 AM »

I also agree that banning a card because of money issues is not a valid argument. Even in Standard there are 4xJace decks against Mono Red Burn. If you have a small budget for Highlander then build your budget deck. I think that there are more competitive and interesting budget decks possible than in other formats.

Also, cards like Mishra's Workshop and friends are not far away from the price for an Imperial Seal. If the council bans a card like Imperial Seal because of its power level, it would be much easier for me to understand the banning strategy. It´s not that I want the Seal in my decks but the banning reasons somethimes puzzling me.

Regarding combo power level: I think they are a weak choice because they are not faster than an aggro deck but less flexible and constant in most of the cases. Most "combo decks" I see splash 1-2 (semi)combos in an another deck strategy to keep the flexibility/consistency.

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« Reply #37 on: 22-04-2011, 11:12:44 AM »

This were the results of the evaluation back in 2008 just for comparison only. The new results will follow soon:


BAN   ----   UNBAN

Survival of the Fittest      27   43,55%  Kiki-Jiki Mirror-Breaker      15   24,19%
Library of Alexandria      15   24,19%  Dust Bowl       13   20,97%
Life from the Loam      14   22,58%  Chain of Plasma      12   19,35%
Gifts Ungiven      8   12,90%  Umezawa's Jitte      9   14,52%
Oath of Druids      7   11,29%  Protean Hulk      7   11,29%
Demonic Tutor      5   8,06%  Dread Return      7   11,29%
Intuition      3   4,84%  Mystical Tutor      6   9,68%
Pulse of the Fields      3   4,84%  Imperial Seal      5   8,06%
Mana Drain      3   4,84%  Flash      5   8,06%
Mind Shatter      3   4,84%  Balance       4   6,45%
Mishra's Workshop      3   4,84%  Trinisphere      3   4,84%
Isochron Scepter      3   4,84%  Skullclamp        2   3,23%
Crucible of Worlds      2   3,23%  Mana Vault      2   3,23%
Aether Vial      2   3,23%  Power Artifact      2   3,23%
Back to Basics      2   3,23%  Wheel of Fortune      1   1,61%
Volrath's Stronghold      1   1,61%  Lion's Eye Diamond      1   1,61%
Sensei's Divining Top      1   1,61%  Vampiric Tutor      1   1,61%
Academy Ruins      1   1,61%  Strip Mine      1   1,61%
Vedalken Shackles      1   1,61%  Yawgmoth's Will        1   1,61%
Goblin Recruiter      1   1,61%  Mind Twist      1   1,61%
Ravages of War      1   1,61%  Tolarian Academy      1   1,61%
Force of Will      1   1,61%  Sol Ring      1   1,61%
Recurring Nightmare      1   1,61%  Tinker      1   1,61%
Price of Progress      1   1,61%
                        



I have 62 answered questionnaires meanwhile. Thanks for your support.

It will take some time for the evaluation. Just a few detections at first sight:

a) the HL community obviously likes the special HL mulligan

b) noone mentioned Mind over Matters to be banned (Latest Unbanning proved itself right)

c) Library of Alexandria is one of the most hated cards actually although no? LoA appeared in the Top 4 (Latest Unbanning seems to be conflicting)

d) Survival is still another disliked card although there haven't been many copies in the Top 8

e) The community wants Chains of Plasma (+ Ban Swans) and Kiki-Jiki back. Lots of guys mentioned Dust Bowl to be unbanned.
« Last Edit: 22-04-2011, 11:17:46 AM by Vazdru » Logged

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« Reply #38 on: 22-04-2011, 11:38:57 AM »

Again for comparison only. Rating of Banned-List and Mulligan back in 2008.

                                    
   
   Banned-List                  Mulligan               
   10      1      1,61%      10      36      58,06%   
   9      15      24,19%      9      6      9,68%   
   8      18      29,03%      8      10      16,13%   
   7      11      17,74%      7      6      9,68%   
   6      4      6,45%      6      2      3,23%   
   5      6      9,68%      5            0,00%   
   4      3      4,84%      4      1      1,61%   
   3      1      1,61%      3            0,00%   
   2      2      3,23%      2            0,00%   
   1            0,00%      1      1      1,61%   
   -      1      1,61%                     
         62      100,00%            62      100,00%   
                                 
                                    
Avarage Banned List:       7,19                              
Avarage Mulligan:      8,92                              
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« Reply #39 on: 23-04-2011, 10:00:35 AM »

   
   Ban:                  Unban:               
   Natural Order      11      25,58%      Life from the Loam      11      25,58%   
   Mana Drain      7      16,28%      Trinisphere      9      20,93%   
   Demonic Tutor      6      13,95%      Buried Alive      8      18,60%   
   Mishra's Workshop      5      11,63%      Enlightened Tutor      7      16,28%   
   Oath of Druids      5      11,63%      Yawgmoth's Will      6      13,95%   
   Gifts Ungiven      4      9,30%      Mystical Tutor      5      11,63%   
   Aether Vial      3      6,98%      Entomb      5      11,63%   
   Sensei's Divining Top      3      6,98%      Umezawa's Jitte      4      9,30%   
   Progenitus      2      4,65%      Tolarian Academy      4      9,30%   
   Moat      2      4,65%      Library of Alexandria      4      9,30%   
   Worldly Tutor      2      4,65%      Imperial Seal      4      9,30%   
   Stoneforge Mystic      2      4,65%      Dread Return      3      6,98%   
   Intuition      2      4,65%      Wheel of Fortune      2      4,65%   
   Trygon Predator      1      2,33%      Survival of the Fittest      1      2,33%   
   Onslaught Cycle-Lands      1      2,33%      Strip Mine      1      2,33%   
   Worldgorger Dragon      1      2,33%      Skullclamp      1      2,33%   
   Channel      1      2,33%      Mind Twist      1      2,33%   
   Power Artifact      1      2,33%      All Moxes      1      2,33%   
   Thopter Foundry      1      2,33%                     
   Protean Hulk      1      2,33%                     
   Karakas      1      2,33%                     
   Price of Progress      1      2,33%                     
   Quasli Pridemage      1      2,33%                     
   Shahrazad      1      2,33%                     
                                 
      
                                 
   Banned-List                  Mulligan               
   10      3      6,98%      10      28      65,12%   
   9      17      39,53%      9      1      2,33%   
   8      13      30,23%      8      5      11,63%   
   7      9      20,93%      7      1      2,33%   
   6            0,00%      6      3      6,98%   
   5            0,00%      5      3      6,98%   
   4      1      2,33%      4            0,00%   
   3            0,00%      3      1      2,33%   
   2            0,00%      2            0,00%   
   1            0,00%      1      1      2,33%   
   -            0,00%                     
         43      100,00%            43      100,00%   
                                 
Rating of Banned-Liste 8,23 (7,19 in 2008)
Ratng of Mulligan 8,67 (8,92 in 2008)



Top 8 appearance of the "problematic" cards in HL GP 8 :

* Natural Order (1/8, firestarter)
* Mana Drain (3/8, firestarter, Tabris, Sebastian)
* Demonic Tutor (3/8, goblinpiledriver, firestarter, Thomas)
* Mishra's Workshop (0/8)
* Oath of Druids (0/8)
* Gifts Ungiven (2/8, firestarter, Tabris)
* Aether Vial (4/8, goblinpiledriver, firestarter, Thomas, Sebastian)
* Sensei's Divining Top (3/8, firestarter, Tabris, Sebastian) 


44 questionaires have been answered

* x.5 downgraded
* "either...or", "maybe" not counted for the statistics above
* one questionaire not valued
« Last Edit: 23-04-2011, 11:34:06 AM by Vazdru » Logged

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« Reply #40 on: 23-04-2011, 12:01:07 PM »

Thx for the result's.

In my opinion, the top 5 "ban" wantings don't play a serious role in competive play (except for mana drain). I cannot understand that so many people hate natural order.

All decks running natural order along with progenitus for example, are always in danger to get a bribery. Its a very high risk to run this combo.
The other target is usually primeval titan, which compensate the card disadvantage, but its in my experience never a gamebreaker. Natural order is slow, clumpy and card disadvantage for 4 mana and you are far behind if your opponent can counter it. I just understand it a little bit, if i compare it with tinker to darksteele colossus back in vintage.

Mana Drain is in the meta since ever. Its a huge advantage exspecially since there is no more manaburn. But ban?

Workshop in opening hand is huge. But there is not a single competive stax build out there atm. Same goes off for oath of druids. There is not any good oath deck atm, because the decks have to many options to kill even a turn 2 oath. Futhermore its one of the last dangerous "early threads" against aggro. It seems like ppl wanna have a format, where they dont need to fear ANYTHING for their creatures. Fact is, seeing top 8 consisting of creature based decks and zero oath decks did manage to take a top 8 spot is the explanation itself.

Seeing Moat on the list is just pure sadness.

Futhermore i totally cannot understand the unbanlist. 3 Months playing with trinishphere and ppl would vote to ban it with 40% of the votes. Pretty sure about that. I read arguments saying, its only good in the first turns. Total bs in my eyes. Trinisphere is in this meta always a huge advantage for any stax list, since all other colors run 75% of their cards < 3cc. Its the best lock card possible for stax, and everybody denying this has never played lock-stax with sphere.

I personally hate lftl more than anything else in the format and i hope never to see it again. Slowing down the game by far the most, just such a boring card in the format, and not a single person wrote intuition on the banlist while putting Lftl on the unban list? I rather play on vs 4c goodstuff, aggro or bant only before playing against lftl again.

Buried alive and yawgmoth's will deserve a watchlist check.

This is a huge dissapointment. Only a few player's see the real danger cards for the format, including wordly tutor, stoneforge mystic or even aether vial. These cards are the problematic factor's of the current meta and the top8. But actually this explains alot of wizards new kind of printings. People dont wanna play with spells, they wanna play with creatures.
« Last Edit: 23-04-2011, 12:04:52 PM by LasH » Logged
Kassow-Rossing
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« Reply #41 on: 23-04-2011, 01:13:43 PM »

I personally hate lftl more than anything else in the format and i hope never to see it again. Slowing down the game by far the most, just such a boring card in the format, and not a single person wrote intuition on the banlist while putting Lftl on the unban list? I rather play on vs 4c goodstuff, aggro or bant only before playing against lftl again.

2. Intuition. Remember this is only my opinion and feel free to feel otherwise yourself. I really think Gifts should be banned purely because of power scales, so if Gifts is gone: Should Intuition or LftL be banned? I say Intuition because none of the cards are any powerful but having both in the format is troublesome. Intuition is also the boring of the two. Please help me here Council.

3. Demonic Tutor. This card is not only the best tutor in the game and format but it can also go in any Mono Green or Mono Red deck due to the fetch lands and dual lands. I'm having a really hard time explaining to people why this card isn't banned since I'm practically the only guy participating here online. I'm fine with the card but people are really confused and I think they have the right to be.


Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why?
1. Life From the Loam. I don't think this card will be any powerful without Gifts Ungiven and Intuition. This card should not get unbanned if Gifts Ungiven doesn't get banned.

Smiley I agree with you on Natural Order-Progenitus, Workshop, Moat, Buried Alive, Yagmoth's Will and Worldly Tutor. I'm not sure I can follow your Life from the Loam theory. If Gifts Ungiven is banned due to power levels and Intuition follows (due to LftL) then Life from the Loam won't break the format because tutoring both LftL AND Wasteland or LtfL AND Cycle lands are a bit hard. It will most likely serve as the extra Crucible of Worlds that costa mana each turn because setting up comboes and lockdowns with it will be a rare sight. I don't think cards should be banned because they take up time, which Life from the Loam only will if it has a cycle combo set up with either Gifts or Intuition, but only for power levels. I don't think Sensei's Divining Top should be banned for the same reason. It's just not strong enough to be a troublemaker.

About Mana Drain. It looks like a dangerous card to me because it can just win the game so easily and really give blue the weird and mysterious mana ramp to resolve in a turn 3 Grave Titan. I haven't had troubles with it so far and I also like to play it myself, but that is really no reason to keep it unbanned. Isn't it too "random luck factor"?
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« Reply #42 on: 23-04-2011, 01:16:28 PM »



Seeing Moat on the list is just pure sadness.

People dont wanna play with spells, they wanna play with creatures.

So very true! Both phrases!

There are really strange things in that list: 4 people want to unban jitte and LoA!? Specially LoA, we've done and it messed up the game, even I a 100% control player which thinks aggro is dominating sees that LoA won't solve that and will only degenerate controls MU.

Also it would be interesting to see the relation between ban/unban. Because if the player who said ban to cycle lands didn't want LFTL unbanned, that is even stranger.

I really can't understand the hate towards oath, i know i've been a bit away.. but is this becoming a problem? I hardly ever see oath decks.

And again Moat being banned? Pure sadness. Did they give a reason?

Also, a very big "Thank you" to vazdru! Smiley

edited:
Quote
About Mana Drain. It looks like a dangerous card to me because it can just win the game so easily and really give blue the weird and mysterious mana ramp to resolve in a turn 3 Grave Titan. I haven't had troubles with it so far and I also like to play it myself, but that is really no reason to keep it unbanned. Isn't it too "random luck factor"?

Like so many other cards in this format... Random luck factor will always be present, specially in "one-of's-formats".
« Last Edit: 23-04-2011, 01:20:02 PM by Mythrandir » Logged
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« Reply #43 on: 24-04-2011, 12:38:13 PM »

I can only repeat what I said before: the day gifts/int become part of the banned list I am leaving this format.
The interaction is moving rapidly towards the board, please do not ban the few cards which produce interesting interaction on the stack.
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« Reply #44 on: 25-04-2011, 07:48:36 AM »

It seems I hit the nail regarding my ban request (4/Top5) but I am very surprised that Natural Order is 1st. Workshop is a budget problem I assume.

Intuition/Gifts are not the ban worthy cards anymore because of three reason:
- Loam is banned
- HL is faster nowadays
- Thread density improves with every edition

The window for a game winning Intuition/Gifts pile is very small at the moment. Certainly a late game Gifts is game over very often but there are not so many late games for me lately.

However, I definately do not want Intuition/Gifts in the same format as Loam as this makes Control/Goodstuff mirrors a nobrainer, like LoA does. I cannot understand how people can call for a Loam unban but do not want to have Intuition/Gifts banned.

Intuition/Gifts definately offer more than Loam for our format. So I say "NO LO'AM"  Grin

Regarding the unbanning vote I was not that sucessful with my vote (Trinisphere/Entomb) but I have now reconsidered my ban request more open minded.

Perhaps we should think about opening the Hell´s Gate for several cards on the banned list, just to find out how they REALLY influence the format. We can discuss about unbannings all night long but as long as we don´t test them on a tournament level we´ll never now for sure.

These are IMO the candidates for unbannings:
Buried Alive
Entomb
Imperial Seal
Tolarian Academy
Trinisphere
Yawgmoth's Will
and perhaps even:
Dread Return
Skullclamp
Wheel of Fortune

IMO it is clear that Loam (see above), LoA, Jitte and the instant Tutors should stay on the banned list. The same goes for Drain and Demonic, but this is another story   Cool

If we find out that one (or several) of these cards will dictate our format, we can ban them a couple of months later without any bigger problems.
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