Banned List - Comparison different HL formats

[Vazdru]

my initial post caused quite a stir ... never thought of that 

As i'm playing a lot of 100CS at the moment, i really ask myself, why there has to be a different Banned List at all, other than the difference in sideboarding.

we have different cards pools available so we need different banned lists obv.
btw. at the latest since i play singleton i don't like the idea of having a sideboard in HL...Karma, Anarchy, Absolute Law...there are just that many random gamebreakers available after boarding

Even tough I don't think this matters a whole lot, I would like to point the fact that combo is also a hell to play in MODO. I just gave my friend the Pattern-Rector decklist and we noticed it will take about 20 clicks to complete each cycle of the combo. Misclick even once and the combo falls apart.
...
Gifts, Intuition and Entomb being banned surely makes things more difficult for digital Johnnys, but the atrocious process of clicking makes combo decks less attractive. The results are not 100% comparable because of this.

100% agree about that - one reason why there are not many combos beside painter's stone and natural progenitus in singleton

Another reason no one mentioned yet is the spoils mulligan:
The spoils mulligan favours combo big time and here is why:

It doesn't matter which archetype the spoils mulligan favours more, spoils mulligan is just that much superior to the "singleton mulligan". In Singleton that many games are already decided just before the first card has been played. Beeing screwed, flooded are omnipresent and that isn't the most funny part of magic 

[Tiggupiru]

Now I have one last (serious) question: Did any one test the impact of the spoils mulligan? For example 50 games Naya vs High Tide with spoils mulligan and 50 without? How do the winning percentages change? I would be really interested.

I haven't tested or ran the numbers, nor I think it's feasible as the decks have been made specifically with the mulligan in mind. Those decks however, are a great example for me to explain my point: Naya will be able to fix their curve quite a bit because of the mulligan. This not only gives combo less time to execute their own plan, but it also makes their anti-aggro cards worse. Repulse loses value significantly if Naya is able to maximize their mana every turn. Instead of playing a creature during first three turns, they play a two-drop and a three-drop, in where Repulse is a strong card as it bounces their Knight of Reliquary and leaves them with random 2/2. Man-o'-war is also a really good here as it can even Iime Walk the next Naya turn completely. This is not something that usually happens when aggro can mulligan as one cheap burn and perfect curve ensures that their fast start isn't really slowed by random AEther Adept.

If we would give up the spoils mulligan, which I don't suggest nor want in million years, Naya would have to increase their land count and be "fair" with their mana. All the while High Tide would just add 2-3 lands and overload on cheap library manipulation. This would make Naya way worse, but it would not have a considerable impact on the High Tide's general performance.

It doesn't matter which archetype the spoils mulligan favours more, spoils mulligan is just that much superior to the "singleton mulligan". In Singleton that many games are already decided just before the first card has been played. Beeing screwed, flooded are omnipresent and that isn't the most funny part of magic 

I don't think anyone was arguing about removing spoils or anything. IMO, it favors aggro the most, and I rarely want to play aggro, but I wouldn't still trade the spoils for the world. Makes nearly every game more interesting. I just don't want it to be used as an argument against combo, because of the reasons mentioned before.

[SirGalahad]

1. My point was, that if the right cards are banned, the potential for combo would be better kept in check.

2. How many cards, that are not available online, are being played? Especially cards, that matter in creating new decks/combos that have to be kept in check.

3. I agree that the biggest "problem" is the spoils mulligan, as it rewards "bad" deckbuilding. But this is a whole other topic.

4. @maggot: you can't be serious about that list. Those 16 decks might be playable, even i already doubt that, but tier 1 means number 1 ranked decks.

5. Sure, combo is not nice to play online, but if there was to be a dominant combo deck, it would be played. Look at legacy with tps.

6. To make my point clear: Maybe, the wrong cards are banned irl and banning other cards would widen the format with viable combo-decks. I know, the counsil did and does a lot of testing, to keep the format healthy, but in my opinion, the banned list is filled with a lot of cards that wouldn't be an issue. Especially if the most powerful cards in the format were banned. Survival and Library were a good start.

[Maggot]

4. @maggot: you can't be serious about that list. Those 16 decks might be playable, even i already doubt that, but tier 1 means number 1 ranked decks.

Actually I´m serious about this list, all of these decks are capable of taking home a tournament victory, when constructed and played well. I think it´s difficult to find true Tier 1 decks, due to the followings reasons:

-regional differences in the meta
-small player base compared to other formats
-missing networking of regional player bases
-not enough large tounaments to show the true capability of decks
-random character or inconsistant nature of the format

It´s not like we are discussing a normal constructed format, where nedecking and pro-player evalution tells you what to play, how to play and how to sideboard.
I don´t know when you consider a deck playable, 80% win percentage? 75%? 60%? 55%?
I´d like to see a list of your tier 1 decks...

Regards

Maggot

[Mythrandir]

Actually, I think it's the other way around. Aggro will benefit immensely from the spoils, as it allows them to run higher threat count (less lands), find those critical Winter Orbs and most importantly, they can manipulate their curve. For example, one, two and a three-drops, with the appropriate lands as opposed to something like two two-drops, a three-drop and sketchy lands). This gives combo something like two turns less to work with, while it usually fixes only rather marginally with the spoils (greatly depending the deck, ofc). Combo has huge amount of library manipulation in form of Ponders, Prordains and such, but that really isn't giving them as much edge as it does in other formats, because the mulligan ensures you both have better starting grip than you otherwise "should".

i agree with this. Spoils mull benefits low mana curve decks. Not only this buts it helps worse builds, since your initial hand isn't based anymore more on purely luck + deckbuilding skills.

We will always have flood/screw situations, no matter what mull rule we choose.

[Vazdru]

updated

      


      

HIGHLANDER	SINGLETON
Balance	Balance
NO	Crucible of Worlds
NO	Demonic Tutor
Buried Alive	NO
Dread Return	NO
Enlightened Tutor	NO
Entomb	NO
Fastbond	Fastbond
Flash	Flash
Grindstone	NO
NO	Gifts Ungiven
Imperial Seal	Imperial Seal
NO	Intuition
Life from the Loam	Life from the Loam
Library of Alexandria	Library of Alexandria
Lion's Eye Diamond	Lions Eye Diamond
Mana Crypt	Mana Crypt
Mana Vault	Mana Vault
Mind Twist	Mind Twist
NO	Regrowth
Mystical Tutor	NO
Skullclamp	Skullclamp
NO	Senseis Divining Top
Sol Ring	Sol Ring
Strip Mine	Strip Mine
Survival of the Fittest	Survival of the Fittest
Time Vault	Time Vault
Tinker	Tinker
Tolarian Academy	Tolarian Academy
Trinisphere	NO
Umezawa's Jitte	Umezawas Jitte
Vampiric Tutor	Vampiric Tutor
Wheel of Fortune	Wheel of Fortune
Yawgmoth's Will	NO

[Vazdru]

updated

      


      

HIGHLANDER	SINGLETON
Balance	Balance
NO	Crucible of Worlds
NO	Demonic Tutor
Dread Return	NO
Enlightened Tutor	NO
Entomb	NO
Fastbond	Fastbond
Flash	Flash
Grindstone	NO
Gifts Ungiven	Gifts Ungiven
Imperial Seal	Imperial Seal
NO	Intuition
Life from the Loam	Life from the Loam
Library of Alexandria	Library of Alexandria
Lion's Eye Diamond	Lions Eye Diamond
Mana Crypt	Mana Crypt
Mana Vault	Mana Vault
Mind Twist	Mind Twist
NO	Regrowth
Mystical Tutor	NO
Skullclamp	Skullclamp
NO	Senseis Divining Top
Sol Ring	Sol Ring
Strip Mine	Strip Mine
Survival of the Fittest	Survival of the Fittest
Time Vault	Time Vault
Tinker	Tinker
Tolarian Academy	Tolarian Academy
Umezawa's Jitte	Umezawas Jitte
Vampiric Tutor	Vampiric Tutor
NO	Wheel of Fortune
Yawgmoth's Will	NO

[pyyhttu]

Along block changes, Singleton received some changes to banned list as well: http://community.wizards.com/magiconline/blog/2012/03/19/magic_online_br_announcement

[Tabris]

THAT is a interesting decision. They banned SFM.

[tonytahiti]

interesting and also wrong.

[Tiggupiru]

This could be a good time to bring this discussion back to the drawing board:

THAT is a interesting decision. They banned SFM.

interesting and also wrong.

While I agree that SFM is probably not a card that needs to be banned power wise, but there has been several players that have actively complained about it and since the players of HL have been decreasing in numbers (when it comes to Finland anyways), there could be some connection here. I am fine if SFM gets banned, I don't love the card and even if this would end up not being an optimal ban, I more than happy to trade SFM for more players and more fun environment. I would be interested to hear your opinions about the matter. After all, if you want to affect to the future of our format, speak up.

[Vazdru]

updated (although Singleton isn't "alive" anymore)

      

HIGHLANDER	SINGLETON
Balance	Balance
Birthing Pod	NO
NO	Crucible of Worlds
NO	Demonic Tutor
Entomb	NO
Fastbond	Fastbond
Flash	Flash
Grindstone	NO
Gifts Ungiven	Gifts Ungiven
Imperial Seal	Imperial Seal
NO	Intuition
NO	Life from the Loam
Library of Alexandria	Library of Alexandria
NO	Lions Eye Diamond
Mana Crypt	Mana Crypt
Mana Vault	Mana Vault
Mind Twist	Mind Twist
Mystical Tutor	NO
Skullclamp	Skullclamp
NO	Senseis Divining Top
Sol Ring	Sol Ring
Strip Mine	Strip Mine
Survival of the Fittest	Survival of the Fittest
Stoneforge Mystic	Stoneforge Mystic
Time Vault	Time Vault
Tinker	Tinker
Tolarian Academy	Tolarian Academy
Umezawa's Jitte	Umezawas Jitte
Vampiric Tutor	Vampiric Tutor
NO	Wheel of Fortune

[Vazdru]

updated (although Singleton isn't "alive" anymore)

      

HIGHLANDER	SINGLETON
Balance	Balance
Birthing Pod	NO
NO	Crucible of Worlds
NO	Demonic Tutor
Entomb	NO
Fastbond	Fastbond
Flash	Flash
Grindstone	NO
Gifts Ungiven	Gifts Ungiven
Imperial Seal	Imperial Seal
NO	Intuition
NO	Life from the Loam
Library of Alexandria	Library of Alexandria
NO	Lions Eye Diamond
Mana Crypt	Mana Crypt
Mana Vault	Mana Vault
Mind Twist	Mind Twist
Natural Order	NO
Skullclamp	Skullclamp
NO	Senseis Divining Top
Sol Ring	Sol Ring
Strip Mine	Strip Mine
Survival of the Fittest	Survival of the Fittest
Stoneforge Mystic	Stoneforge Mystic
Time Vault	Time Vault
Tinker	Tinker
NO	Tolarian Academy
Umezawa's Jitte	Umezawas Jitte
Vampiric Tutor	Vampiric Tutor
NO	Wheel of Fortune

[Vazdru]

just a summary without any deeper meaning


   

Singleton (inactive)	Tiny Leaders	Duel Commander	Highlander
was unavailable	Ancestral Recall	Ancestral Recall	Ancestral Recall	4/4
		Ancient Tomb		1/4
Balance	Balance	Balance	Balance	4/4
		Back to Basics		1/4
	is unavailable		Birthing Pod	2/4
was unavailable	Black Lotus	Black Lotus	Black Lotus	4/4
	Black Vise			1/4
	is unavailable	Cataclysm		2/4
	Channel	Channel		2/4
	Counterbalance			1/4
Crucible of Worlds				1/4
Demonic Tutor	Demonic Tutor			2/4
		Entomb	Entomb	2/4
	Earthcraft			1/4
	Edric, Spymaster of Trest			1/4
Fastbond	Fastbond	Fastbond	no entry	3/4
Flash	not necessary	not necessary (Hulk banned)	Flash	4/4
		Food Chain		1/4
Gifts Ungiven	is unavailable	Gifts Ungiven	Gifts Ungiven	4/4
	Goblin Recruiter			1/4
		Grim Monolith		1/4
		Grindstone	Grindstone	2/4
	Hermit Druid	Hermit Druid		2/4
	is unavailable	Humility		2/4
Imperial Seal	Imperial Seal	Imperial Seal	Imperial Seal	4/4
Intuition				1/4
		Karakas		1/4
Library of Alexandria	Library of Alexandria	Library of Alexandria	Library of Alexandria	4/4
Life from the Loam				1/4
Lion's Eye Diamond				1/4
		Loyal Retainers		1/4
	Karakas			1/4
Mana Crypt	Mana Crypt	Mana Crypt	Mana Crypt	4/4
was unavailable	Mana Drain	Mana Drain	no entry	3/4
Mana Vault	Mana Vault	Mana Vault	Mana Vault	4/4
	Metalworker			1/4
Mind Twist	Mind Twist	Mind Twist	Mind Twist	4/4
was unavailable	Mishra's Workshop	Mishra's Workshop	no entry	3/4
was unavailable	Moxes (Power 9)	Moxes (Power 9)	Moxes (Power 9)	4/4
	is unavailable	Natural Order	Natural Order	3/4
	Necropotence	Necropotence		2/4
		Oath of Druids		1/4
	Painter's Servant			1/4
	is unavailable	Protean Hulk		2/4
Sensei's Divining Top				1/4
		Serra Ascendant		1/4
was unavailable	Shahrazad	Shahrazad	Shahrazad	4/4
Skullclamp	Skullclamp		Skullclamp	3/4
Sol Ring	Sol Ring	Sol Ring	Sol Ring	4/4
Stoneforge Mystic			Stoneforge Mystic	2/4
Strip Mine	Strip Mine	Strip Mine	Strip Mine	4/4
Survival of the Fittest	Survival of the Fittest		Survival of the Fittest	3/4
	Sword of Body and Mind			1/4
		The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale		1/4
Time Vault	Time Vault	Time Vault	Time Vault	4/4
was unavailable	Time Walk	Time Walk	Time Walk	4/4
was unavailable	Timetwister			2/4
Tinker	not necessary	Tinker	Tinker	4/4
Tolarian Academy	Tolarian Academy	Tolarian Academy	no entry	3/4
Umezawa's Jitte	Umezawa's Jitte		Umezawa's Jitte	3/4
Vampiric Tutor	Vampiric Tutor	Vampiric Tutor	Vampiric Tutor	4/4
Wheel of Fortune	Wheel of Fortune			2/4
	is unavailable	Yawgmoth's Bargain		2/4
	Yawgmoth's Will			1/4

[Vazdru]

Singleton (inactive)	Tiny Leaders	Duel Commander	Highlander		Canadian Highlander
was unavailable	Ancestral Recall	Ancestral Recall	Ancestral Recall	4/4	5
		Ancient Tomb		1/4
Balance	Balance	Balance	Balance	4/4	1
		Back to Basics		1/4
	is unavailable		Birthing Pod	2/4	3
was unavailable	Black Lotus	Black Lotus	Black Lotus	4/4	6
	Black Vise			1/4
	is unavailable			2/4
	Channel	Channel		2/4
	Counterbalance			1/4
Crucible of Worlds				1/4
Demonic Tutor	Demonic Tutor			2/4	4
				-	Doomsday 3
				-	Enlightened Tutor 2
		Entomb	Entomb	2/4
	Earthcraft			1/4
	Edric, Spymaster of Trest			1/4
				-	Fabricate 1
Fastbond	Fastbond	Fastbond	no entry	3/4	1
Flash	not necessary	not necessary (Hulk banned)	Flash	4/4	6
		Food Chain		1/4
Gifts Ungiven	is unavailable	Gifts Ungiven	Gifts Ungiven	4/4	1
	Goblin Recruiter			1/4
		Grim Monolith		1/4
	Grindstone	Grindstone	Grindstone	3/4
	Hermit Druid	Hermit Druid		2/4	5
	is unavailable	Humility		2/4
Imperial Seal	Imperial Seal	Imperial Seal	Imperial Seal	4/4	2
Intuition				1/4	1
		Karakas		1/4
Library of Alexandria	Library of Alexandria	Library of Alexandria	Library of Alexandria	4/4	1
Life from the Loam				1/4
				-	Lim-Dul's Vault 1
Lion's Eye Diamond				1/4
		Loyal Retainers		1/4
	Karakas			1/4
Mana Crypt	Mana Crypt	Mana Crypt	Mana Crypt	4/4	2
was unavailable	Mana Drain	Mana Drain	no entry	3/4
Mana Vault	Mana Vault	Mana Vault	Mana Vault	4/4	1
				-	Merchant Scroll 1
	Metalworker			1/4
Mind Twist	Mind Twist	Mind Twist	Mind Twist	4/4	1
was unavailable	Mishra's Workshop	Mishra's Workshop	no entry	3/4
was unavailable	Moxes (Power 9)	Moxes (Power 9)	Moxes (Power 9)	4/4	3
		Mystical Tutor		1/4	2
	is unavailable	Natural Order		2/4	5
	Necropotence	Necropotence		2/4
		Oath of Druids		1/4	1
				-	Personal Tutor 1
	is unavailable	Protean Hulk		2/4	4
Sensei's Divining Top		Sensei's Divining Top		2/4
		Serra Ascendant		1/4
was unavailable	Shahrazad	Shahrazad	Shahrazad	4/4
Skullclamp	Skullclamp		Skullclamp	3/4	1
Sol Ring	Sol Ring	Sol Ring	Sol Ring	4/4	4
Stoneforge Mystic			Stoneforge Mystic	2/4	1
Strip Mine	Strip Mine	Strip Mine	Strip Mine	4/4	3
				-	Summoner's Pact 1
Survival of the Fittest	Survival of the Fittest		Survival of the Fittest	3/4	3
	Sword of Body and Mind			1/4
				-	Tainted Pact 1
		The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale		1/4
Time Vault	Time Vault	Time Vault	Time Vault	4/4	7
was unavailable	Time Walk	Time Walk	Time Walk	4/4	4
was unavailable	Timetwister			2/4
Tinker	not necessary	Tinker	Tinker	4/4	5
Tolarian Academy	Tolarian Academy	Tolarian Academy	no entry	3/4	1
				-	Transmute Artifact 2
				-	Treasure Cruise 1
				-	True-Name Nemesis 1
Umezawa's Jitte	Umezawa's Jitte		Umezawa's Jitte	3/4	1
Vampiric Tutor	Vampiric Tutor	Vampiric Tutor	Vampiric Tutor	4/4	3
Wheel of Fortune	Wheel of Fortune			2/4
	is unavailable	Yawgmoth's Bargain		2/4
	Yawgmoth's Will			1/4