Buried Alive (and to a lesser extent, Dread Return)

[Drexlin]

Hello all, I'm new to the Highlander format. I built my first deck recently, without consulting the banned list (my mistake). I decided I wanted to build a reanimator deck because it's one of my favorite archetypes.

So I sat down to play against a friend of mine, whom has been playing Highlander for a while now. Imagine my surprise when I played a Buried Alive and he told me that it was banned! He didn't know why, so I did a quick Google search, found this site and searched the forums for the answer.

So it seems that the combo is using Buried Alive to get Kiki-Jiki, Pestermite, and Karmic Guide. Then use any reanimate card to get back Karmic Guide, then Kiki-Jiki, then copy Karmic Guide to get Pestermite, untap Kiki-Jiki, copy Pestermite, rinse, repeat for infinite Pestermites with Haste. WOW! Cool combo! But the problem, to me, doesn't seem like it's Buried Alive, it's Kiki-Jiki! So why did Buried Alive get the shaft? Is there something else I'm missing?

While searching for my Buried Alive answer, I realized that Dread Return is also banned. This one I don't care as much about, but still seems like an unnecessary banning. Seems like there is a similar combo to the above one where you use Hermit Druid to mill your whole deck, flash back some cards to make cheap creatures (Chatter of the Squirrel and/or Acorn Harvest), then sac them to flash back Dread Return for what I assume is the Karmic Guide/Kiki-Jiki/Pestermite combo.

So you might see why I'm a little confused here. In these two combos, Buried Alive and Hermit Druid accomplish the same task: getting those three creatures in the graveyard. So why is Buried Alive banned and not Hermit Druid? But even better, why not just ban Kiki-Jiki? Then this combo wouldn't even exist, and we would be free to unban Buried Alive and Dread Return, which are so vital to a reanimator deck. If you're a good Magic player, you know that two-for-one is always a good trade!

One final comment/question: If we leave the banned list the way it is, Kiki-Jiki and Pestermite still exist in the format. Are we going to ban every card that lets you get the two of them out quickly? I'm sure there are a million ways of doing it already.

I look forward to your response. Thanks.

[coldcrow]

I agree. Especially Dread Return is a totally unnecessarily banned card. It has far wider applications than the combo it get banned for. Basically the same as for banning painter's servant and not grindstone.
Also I fail to see how Buried alive is in any way more dangerous than: intuition, gifts, survival, and comparable tutors.

[Sturmgott]

Bannings as of July 1st, 2009

Excerpt from the reasoning for our decisions - why did we exchange Kiki-Jiki and Buried Alive?

Unban Kiki Jiki, Mirror-Breaker / Ban Buried Alive

Recursion-based decks and Reanimator weren't viable recently. Buried Alive didn't play a big role at the latest tourneys and when it was played it was just to support Combo in particular Reveillark Combo.

Buried Alive had to go cause it would have been a possible Turn-3-kill:

T1: Forest + Birds / Bayou + Elf or the like
T2: Land, cast Buried Alive for Kiki, Pestermite, Karmic Guide to grave
T3: random reanimate and win
You can't have this with Survival, Intuition, Gifts in that celerity (maybe T5).

We aware of the fact Kiki Jiki might cause some problems in combination with Reveillark and Survival that's why we put it on the watch list.

The main problem is that Buried Alive + Reanimate is a too strong 2-card-combo. It can completely be resolved on an otherwise empty board except mana sources able to produce 2BB, requires no additional setup and it wins outright.


_____________________________________________________________________________________

Why did we ban Dread Return?


On 01.07.2008 the following changes to the banned list are made. These changes become active 15.07.2008.

Banned:

   * Cephalid Illusionist
   * Dread Return
   * Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
   * Painter's Servant
   * Chain of Plasma

Unbanned:

   * -

Watchlist:

   * + Hermit Druid
   * + Life from the Loam
   * - Aluren
   * - Dreamhalls
   * - Mana Severance
   * - Mishra's Workshop
   * - Yawgmoth's Bargain

Reasoning

The deck: Cephalid Breakfast

After extensive testing, the deck, which Oliver Malina won the last
highlander grand prix with, has turned out to be to strong for the
highlander format. Therefore we take an action.

Cephalid Illusionist

The Cephalid Illusionist is a mere combo card in contrast to the
Hermit Druid, which is often played in decks without enabling a
combo. While having the disadvantage (with respect to the Hermit
Druid) to need an additional card (Shuko, Lightning Greaves, any
En-Kor) to fill the graveyard, it has the big advantage of doing this
without having to wait for summoning sickness to wear off. Moreover,
it has the striking virtue of only filling the graveyard as full as
its controller wants it to. With the Hermit Druid in contrast it is
"top or flop", such that the combo needs to be thoroughly protected
when using him.

Dread Return

Since the combo is still possible via the Hermit Druid we have
thoroughly pondered whether the hermit needs to go too. Many players
like this card very much (it is gladly played as an utility creature)
and it has never made a ban-worthy appearance. Therefore we have
decided not to destroy the combo deck completely but to hinder it for
the time being. So far the Hermit Druid, together with Narcomoeba and
Acorn Harvest or Chatter of the Squirrel, has been a single card
combo. Now a player needs at least the reanimation in hand (or bring
it into his hand) to win the game. Since, in our opinion, the Hermit
Druid can not remain while Dread Return is in the
format, the latter has to leave. Should Hermit Druid turn out to be
too abusable, then it can potentially change its place with Dread
Return in one of the next banning seasons.

Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

For us the next best two card combo seemed to be Buried Alive +
Reanimate that ends the game, via Kiki-Jiki, Pestermite and Karmic
Guide, by infinite Pestermites with haste. Since additionally this
combo can be build mono-colored this seemed sufficiently threating to
take pre-emptive measures.

Painter's Servant

The two card combo of Painter's Servant and Grindstone, that ends the
game for 6 mana from hand at any time, but can as well be started on
turn three, is also known from other formats. Since it can be
integrated into any deck, as both parts are artifacts, it is perceived
as too simple and also too powerful. Therefore we ban the Painter's
Servant for good.

Chain Of Plasma

Chain of Plasma needs to leave since the combo with Swans of Bryn
Argol is too good. According to our tests of rather untuned builds of
the deck this will prevent combo dominance in the highlander format.
Since the Swans yield interesting board situations while the Chain is
just another 3 for 2 burn spell, we have decided to keep the swan in
the format.

Watch List: Life from the Loam

Due to the coming mechanic "Retrace" that allows spells (that have
this ability) to be played from the graveyard by additionally
discarding a land (yes, this is possible again and again) and for the
fact that it is not clear what cards with retrace there will be, Life
from the Loam is put on the watchlist. It is clear to us that Life
from the Loam is a card that has a strong influence on the format,
which means that further bannings are to be expected if Life from the
Loam needs to leave.

Generally problematic: Combo

Even though it is not yet an official part of the banning policy, it
should be clear from the discussions that the highlander council does
not approve of pure combo decks as tier 1 decks. For a major part of
the players combo is the most hated deck type, since the doings of the
combo players opponent are mostly irrelevant for the combo player.
This leads to a minimal interaction which cannot desirable. At the
same time we are aware that we proclaimed to shape the format such as
to have as many different decks and archetypes be tier 1 as possible.
From now on we will deviate consciously from the present
strategy and will make the format more friendly towards non-combo
players. It is also clear to us that we may fall from grace with the
friends of combo but we have intensively weighed the wishes and
interests of the players. In the end we have decided to take this step
and we will follow this way consequently.

First and foremost the highlander format shall be about fun. Combo
decks are no fun for most of the players, especially not from the
other side of the table. Interaction remains to be the main target of
our banning policy and will, in our opinion, be ensured more strongly
by this step.

(http://www.magicplayer.org/forum/index.php?topic=105.msg837#msg837)

[Drexlin]

Thanks for the quick responses. I have read all that before, Sturmgott, and it doesn't answer any of my questions.

Unban Kiki Jiki, Mirror-Breaker / Ban Buried Alive

Recursion-based decks and Reanimator weren't viable recently. Buried Alive didn't play a big role at the latest tourneys and when it was played it was just to support Combo in particular Reveillark Combo.

Buried Alive had to go cause it would have been a possible Turn-3-kill:

T1: Forest + Birds / Bayou + Elf or the like
T2: Land, cast Buried Alive for Kiki, Pestermite, Karmic Guide to grave
T3: random reanimate and win
You can't have this with Survival, Intuition, Gifts in that celerity (maybe T5).

We aware of the fact Kiki Jiki might cause some problems in combination with Reveillark and Survival that's why we put it on the watch list.

This is how I read this:
"Nobody played Buried Alive and people like Kiki-Jiki. Since they can't both exist in this format, one of them had to go."

This is not a reason to make a change. In my opinion, Kiki-Jiki has much more combo potential.

The main problem is that Buried Alive + Reanimate is a too strong 2-card-combo. It can completely be resolved on an otherwise empty board except mana sources able to produce 2BB, requires no additional setup and it wins outright.

And this doesn't make any sense either since I can accomplish the same thing with Entomb/Reanimate on Turn 2! Or Turn 1 with a Lotus Petal or Chrome Mox or the like.

Dread Return

Since the combo is still possible via the Hermit Druid we have
thoroughly pondered whether the hermit needs to go too. Many players
like this card very much (it is gladly played as an utility creature)
and it has never made a ban-worthy appearance. Therefore we have
decided not to destroy the combo deck completely but to hinder it for
the time being. So far the Hermit Druid, together with Narcomoeba and
Acorn Harvest or Chatter of the Squirrel, has been a single card
combo. Now a player needs at least the reanimation in hand (or bring
it into his hand) to win the game. Since, in our opinion, the Hermit
Druid can not remain while Dread Return is in the
format, the latter has to leave. Should Hermit Druid turn out to be
too abusable, then it can potentially change its place with Dread
Return in one of the next banning seasons.

I reiterate: Why is Buried Alive banned and not Hermit Druid? They accomplish the same task. Also, how is this such a devastating combo if Kiki-Jiki is banned?

I await your responses to these questions and anything I forgot to mention from my original post.

Thanks.

[so_not]

Couple points I want to bring in to this conversation:
1. Survival enables nowadays a combo that is pretty much a turn three win (obviously not always but close) through land manadude, land survival search iona, land search loyal retainers animate iona.

2. Entomb is way better than Buried Alive since second turn Iona is so brutal but you can't obviously do the same kiki-trick with it.

3. If Dread Return wasn't banned you could still kill opponent with Hermit Druid second turn with Mox even without Kiki-Jiki. Sutured Ghoul + Dragon Breath

[Nastaboi]

I find it amusing that any newbie can instantly see obvious flaws in banned list / policy that the council actively denies.

Entomb, Survival and Hermit Druid are insanely more powerful cards than Buried Alive. No one played Buried when it was banned. There was no Iona while ago, I'll give you that, but that is just the reason to re-elevate situation now.

[Tabris]

I´ll agree with Nastaboi. Besides there was no real answer to the questions Drexlin asked. Sturmgott you just cited the "reasons" for the bannings/unbannings and these very "explanations" were the source for the threadstarter to ask questions about the policy. Little bit lame I think.

There are so many, lets call it "logic holes", in the banning policy. Starting with Painters servant and grind stone (till now no one could explain why not banning the grindstone and offer some nice plays with painter)or Dredge Return and Hermit (obviously Hermit is just used to enable any kind of combo and not fixing the mana base ._." ) also Surival (which enables every graveyard based combo (which is fine with me but refering to your "we dont want any Tier 1 combo decks or at least no combo deck which is able to trigger it on T2 but T4 is fine" )).


I think this thread is a good example why the whole community (at least the active one /the one who cares/) should have a vote on the bannings. We all love this format so lets decide it in a democratic way how it should look like (since it influence all playing people).

[cedzoh]

I think tabris made a good point. It would be better for our format, if more people can decide on bannings.

A possibility could be that each guy in the council has 1 vote and the community has 1 vote...

[Nastaboi]

Open democracy where anyone can vote is not the way to manage banned list. Neither is council who don't respect opinions of the field.

[Tabris]

Well I think it is the way to manage the banned list. Simply make rules about the voting system and establish an open and transparent method which determines the procedere. So we get an rational and on arguments based system and get rid of this "three people decide the format bannings" - thing.

Dont get me wrong most of the bannings are absolutly ok and I  think they  do a good job but I would argue for a democratic system even if I would agree with all of their choices bc in my opinion all ppl which are affected by the decisions should get a voice. Since this is a casual format (which means here: its not controlled by the DCI) we should make the best out of it bc we are the ppl who define this game.

[Mythrandir]

Couple points I want to bring in to this conversation:
1. Survival enables nowadays a combo that is pretty much a turn three win (obviously not always but close) through land manadude, land survival search iona, land search loyal retainers animate iona.

2. Entomb is way better than Buried Alive since second turn Iona is so brutal but you can't obviously do the same kiki-trick with it.

3. If Dread Return wasn't banned you could still kill opponent with Hermit Druid second turn with Mox even without Kiki-Jiki. Sutured Ghoul + Dragon Breath

well, 1) uses too many cards to be able to make it consistently.
2) is brutal for mono (bi...) colored decks, that's not as brutal as a 3rd turn B2b for 5C..

I'm a bit indifferent on the kiki vs buried. As long as the format doesn't get to have both at the same time.

@Coldcrow: Buried gets all 3 in grave, Intuition, gifts gets you cards in grave + cards in hand. So "completely" different when you need all 3 cards in grave to start the combo. (not that i'm defending buried alive being banned...)

I'm more concern on LoA... but don't want to derail the thread.

And this doesn't make any sense either since I can accomplish the same thing with Entomb/Reanimate on Turn 2! Or Turn 1 with a Lotus Petal or Chrome Mox or the like.

Well, i can't see any situation where you can win outright with mox, land, entomb, reanimate...

[Vazdru]

we just enlarged the council (pyyhttu + Firestarter), changed the process of bannings/unbannings, added a foreign member to the council and made the point of view of a single council member more transparent (at least for new council-members -> subforum)

...can't you see anythin has changed...

I just ask for a little bit more patience; have a look what will gonna happen in two weeks (bannings / unbannings as of April, 1st)

I guess there will be definatly some minor and maybe some major changes at the banned list
so some reasonings you might ask for may become obsolete

[so_not]

1) uses too many cards to be able to make it consistently.
2) is brutal for mono (bi...) colored decks, that's not as brutal as a 3rd turn B2b for 5C..

1) Uses 1 card + any mox, bop, noble, llanowar, fyndhorn, deep shadow, arbor...+any creature. I'd say this is a bit more consistent than random mana acceleration + Buried Alive + animation win.

2) lol nice argument

[Mythrandir]

1) Uses 1 card + any mox, bop, noble, llanowar, fyndhorn, deep shadow, arbor...+any creature. I'd say this is a bit more consistent than random mana acceleration + Buried Alive + animation win.

Well, not to nitpick, but: 2 land +  1 mox + 1 card to mox + 1 survival + 1 creature to discard + 1 (1cmc) reanimate

That's a total of 7 cards out of 8/9 from your initial hand (depending if you're on the draw) I called it a god's hand , yes some cards are degenerated (lands, creature to discard, but even then....)

At least, that's how i understood your play.

@Vazdru: yeap, you're right, the council has just suffered a major modification, so we should be patient, and must not forget that the council is made of voluntary work/effort, unlike DCI.

[Tabris]

@Vazdru

I´ll appriciate the changes on the council policy especially adding two new members (adding pyyhttu for the finnish community was a good decision) but  I was argue about a fundamental change in the banning system.

So I am waiting for the new bannings but as I mentioned b4 its about the whole system not only the single bannings (which are fine except for some cards(like unbanning LoA, not banning Survival, banning Painters Servant, etc, etc, etc))