4,5-C Control

[Lorian]

Hey there,
i'd be gratefull for some opinions to the deck and some suggestions for the questions / considerations afterwards.
First the Decklist:

// Colour-Lands: 33           Tundra           Tropical Island           Underground Sea           Savannah           Scrubland           Bayou           Volcanic Island           Plateau           Badlands           ---           Hallowed Fountain           Breeding Pool           Watery Grave           Temple Garden           Godless Shrine           Overgrown Tomb           ---           Snow-Covered Island           Island           Plains           Forest           Swamp           ---           Flooded Strand           Polluted Delta           Windswept Heath           Wooded Foothills           Bloodstained Mire           ---           Flood Plain           Bad River           Grasslands           ---           Reflecting Pool           Flagstones of Trokair           Karakas           Lonely Sandbar           Secluded Steppe

// Utility-Lands: 6           Tolaria West           Academy Ruins           Volrath's Stronghold           Nantuko Monastery           Wasteland           Maze of Ith                     // Mana-Artefacts: 5           Coalition Relic           Azorius Signet           Dimir Signet           Selesnya Signet           Simic Signet           // Creatures & Planeswalker: 19           Qasali Pridemage           Trinket Mage           Kitchen Finks           Court Hussar           Shadowmage Infiltrator           Eternal Witness           Rhox War Monk           Glen Elendra Archmage           Venser, Shaper Savant           Academy Rector           Loxodon Hierarch           Stoic Angel           Etched Oracle           Meloku the Clouded Mirror           Mulldrifter           Shriekmaw           Eternal Dragon           Exalted Angel           ---           Garruk Wildspeaker

// Draw & Dig & Tutor: 16           Ancestral Vision           Skeletal Scrying           Fact or Fiction           ---           Sensei's Divining Top           Brainstorm           Impulse           Worldly Counsel           ---           Life from the Loam           Crop Rotation           Personal Tutor           Tainted Pact           Demonic Tutor           Eladamri's Call           Intuition           Gifts Ungiven           Mystical Teachings           // Permission: 8           Pact of Negation           Force of Will           Misdirection           Counterspell           Mana Drain           Forbid           Dromar's Charm           Cryptic Command

// Removal & Anti-Aggro & Stuff: 13           Pithing Needle           Swords to Plowshares           Path to Exile           Vindicate           Bant Charm           Krosan Grip           Engineered Explosives           Pernicious Deed           Wrath of God           ---           Vedalken Shackles           Collective Restraint           Treachery           ---           Phyrexian Furnace

Ok, let's start discussing that stuff.

1.) Auto-Includes that just aren't in here, 'cause too expensive

• Library of Alexandria
• Moat

2.) General performance of the deck as it is
I'm halfway contempt with its performance.
The main problems are very good starts of red-based Aggro with burn or U(w) Stax or Mana-Denial builds.
Moon-Effects and BtB can be handled most of the times by expecting it and playing accordingly.
Creature-based Aggro without too much burn can normally be handled and
vs. other control decks i feel it has a very good matchup.

3.) The colour red and the mana base
At the moment there are only three red duals in here to power domain and sunburst (having EE and Restrains available at 5 often helps me loads) and help with fetching for double colour requirements or after some landdestruction.
(Badlands will become a Taiga as soon as i aquire one.)

I've tested the deck for some time with red splashes like Fire/Ice and the likes but what i found is, while it helps vs. aggro it really worsens the matchup vs. Moon / BtB and Mana-Denial.
So the red cards had to go.

What i dislike about the mana base is, that in the worst case i've got 6 CiPt-Lands, especially the Mirage-Fetchlands. Fact is, i know no alternatives as other lands would again worsen the matchup vs. LD, moon, etc..
Any ideas here? (maybe a moot point if the new edition really has new fetchlands)

4.) Cards on my personal "watchlist"
There are some cards i'm not 100% sure about in this deck. I'd be delighted if some of you would share their experiences with those in similiar decks:

• Flagstones of Trokair

Rocks with Crop Rotation and vs. LD - sucks vs. Moon & BtB

• Karakas & Venser, Shaper Savant

The combo really owns when you get it in the right moment. Then again sometimes it just feels like "win even more" or it's an very expensive Boomerang or the land that should have been a snow-covered plains.

• Rhox War Monk

It buys a lot of time vs. Aggro if you meet the colour requirements in turn 3 / 4 ...

• Garruk Wildspeaker

Similiar here. Sometimes wins the game sometimes it'S an expensive Fog in sorcery-speed...

• Skeletal Scrying

Wins the late-game vs. control but is often dead vs. aggro as at the time you can afford to spend some mana for it instead of removal or playing your own critters you often don't want to get yourself in burn-range.

• Cryptic Command

Another highlight vs. control and sometimes vs. aggro in special situations.
At other times you want it to be that Mana Leak.
[/list]

5.) "Unusual" choices in my build that i'm -so far- very sure of.
I've been told a lot of times that this card should't be included or that the other card is an auto-include and i should use it.
Here are the Highlights i'd really like some more opinions about:

• Mirage-Fetchlands

Yeah, i also dislike the CiPt. Alternatives would be Filterlands or Ravinica-Commons. But in my opinion they have all the synergies: LftL, Fetching Basics vs. Moon / BtB, Skeletal Scrying, Nantuko Monastry, domain, sunburst.
What do i miss here?

• Nantuko Monastery

Some say you can't afford it cause of the colorless mana and yeah, i kinda hate within my first 10 cards.
But what i see is the recurring 4/4 1st-Striker that can't be handled with Sorceries.

• Darksteel-Ingot / More Signets / Talismans

One could play more Artefact-Mana.
As it stands in 1/10 games i already get mana flooded sometime in the mid-game.

• Bant Charm

This argument i don't understand. What's not to like about the versality of Bant Charm?

• Vedalken Shackles

This card has won me many a game.
Sure it's target for the opponents artefact removal, but on the other hand unhandled it win's vs. creature based aggro and in the late-game vs. control really makes him dig for his Krosan Grip.

• Mana Leak / Condescend & all that 3CC-Counters

I'm really low on Counter-Spells in this version.
Reason being, that in turns 3 or 4 i usually want to tap out for some creature, Shackles, etc.
So in my view, i'm better of with some removal for the 3/4 CC Thread i could'nt counter in the first place.
But maybe i'm missing something here too?
[/list]

6.) Cards i might want to include but am not sure about them / don't know what to cut
Ok, finally (yeah, you almost made it through the whole hell of a post! ) here's a bunch of cards i'd like to play or even have played for a while but sorted out.
Maybe you can share some experiences of your own concerning these?

• Future Sight

This would be the prime target for the rector vs. control builds.
A pitty that vs. any fast aggro it would be only win more if finally i could play it.
But as it stands, i have no viable rector target vs. control right now.
Sure, sometimes Treachery does the job or a Deed may protect me from some large Decree but more often than not Rector is a chump-blocker vs. some fattie here.
Any idea for some enchantment that is good vs. aggro and vs. control?

• Solemn Simulacrum

Possible 2-1 tradeoff but then again so slow...

• Voidslime / Stifle

Stifle... Instant Strip Mine, Savior vs. some nasty triggered effect or... the other dead card...
Is it worth it?
To circumwent this, i tried Voidslime for some time but the colour requirement really sucks as for some reason almost always you have your only green mana on the Tropical in the early game.

• Deep Analysis

Sorcery Speed Draw 2 for 4? 3 Life and 2 Mana blocked vs. Aggro?
I see that card in Aggro-Control Builds sure, but in here?

• Raven's Crime

Oh, i like it with an up and running LftL-Enginge!
But hey, when i got that engine going, didn't i win already anyways?

• Krosan Verge

2 Lands for One! Suck empty your library of surplus lands in control late-game!
But so unbelievable slow...

• Trygon Predator

This guy left alone for 2-3 Turns early wins the Matchup vs. Stax and similiar Artefact-based decks.
And most of the time he does nothing vs. that nasty Crucible or Scroll Rack of the other Control-Guy.
Would i be Survival, i would play it. But here?

• Knight of the Reliquary

Well, he would just fit into the concept of the deck and find me that Utility lands i need right now.
But wait, didn't Intuition and Gifts already do that and more at instant speed and without dying to some terror?

• Pulse of the Fields / Story Circle

This would seem some possible solutions to my problem with very fast aggro-burn.
But then again i'll prefer Deed or Restraint most of the time instead of Circle and the Circle will also die to Deed or EE at 3, which often is a must in this Matchups.
And Pulse?
Most RDWs play some form of lifegain-denial or that many painlands, that you can't get much out of it anyways.
[/list]


Ok, first of all:
Thank you very much if you really read all these of my thoughts.
I'd really appreciate your opinion to some of my questions and considerations!

[Mythrandir]

Hey, welcome to the board. First a LOL at the 4,5.

Well, i have been playing 5CC for quite some time now, i think i'm able to help you a little bit. So here's a quick review (bear in mind that i do not know your meta, but for what you wrote you have a bit of everything, no?)
Also i really don't see why you have access to R, since at least i don't see any red cards in there, just stuff like collective restraint and the likes.

Lands:
It seems ok, i'd probably tweak a little it to have less nonbasic and more basics since you really don't need R that much.

Also lands i might consider:
mishras factory - great!
vesuva (legendary wasteland or a double maze or a double manland)
rishadan port (great vs manlands and also to screw opponents mana base)
the tabernacle at pendrell vale (bit expensive)
urborg (if you have many colorless lands and things like tabernacle and maze in play)

would probbly cut:
some R/x duals
academy ruins (i just don't see anything worth being recurred in there for this slot)
mirage fetchlands (a bit slow, wait for enemy fetchlands...)

Creatures:
It also seems ok, would probably cut:
academy rector (don't see any major targets for this one)
Stoic angel (personal opinion, tested it and it wasn't that good...)

Cards to consider:
Tarmogoyf (for long time i didn't play it... big mistake!! an auto-include)
Figure of destiny - good vs aggro and control
Doran - really puts some pressure on the table and it generally helps you VS aggro because of the P/T switch)

I'd also play at least one more PW, specially if you play goyf. I'd go with jace or liliana.

Draw/tutor:
Again seems good.
Cards to consider:
Shred memory (dunno if grave is very important in your meta) - transmute is great and instant grave removal vs LFTL
Tithe - really good to fix mana base and thin your deck.

I used to play personal tutor but it was too slow (and opponent had 1 turn to deal with the known card) and i decided to cut it, how has it been for you?

Permission:
Depending on meta you might consider:
Dissipate VS forbid

Removal:
I'm not a huge fan of PtE, i prefer burn.
Would probably add damnation and i think i would add at least one more card vs enchantment/artifat (putrefy, mortify, hide/seek)

Overall:
I think you either use R a little more/better our simply cut. No need for that R duals in there, IMO.

Auto-includes for that deck that i don't see in there:
tarmogyf (already mentioned)
hide/seek - if you're a 4,5 and not a 4cc you must plat his, so versatile. life gain + threat removal (BTB, PoP) or a "disenchant"
Regrowth - no regrowth?? i think i don't have to explain this one.
damnation - specially if you want to intuition EOT (dmantion ,wog, regrowth/deed, etc)
lightning helix - again if you say you're 4,5 you MUST play this. this is such a life swinger for you. kills a threat and nets you 3 life. Excellent vs aggro

Comments on your comments:
- Yes on flagstones, goes great with crop or vs a general armageddon. Since it produces W it's not that bad.

- Vs great red start either you pack more removal, which i think you alredy carry, but then would lose vs more control based... you're bound to have bad MU in this format.

- cryptic command never really cut it for me, but i'm a pure 5CC, so getting those UUU is really hard... But i can see it being played in there, specially if you tweak a little bit your mana base, if you decide to cut R.

- Mirage fetchlands are a bit too slow, IMO. And again, like i said, just wait for zendikar.

- nantuko as won me countless of games. 4/4 first strik is a monster. no "God" can touch it. hehe, sorry for the pun.

- mana accel, well this really has to do with experience. do you play with this IRL or MWS? i can see the mana flooded IRL. I also play 5 mana artifacts, more i think is not that good, specially in a aggro rich environment.

- Bant charm is too mana intensive, it's a very situational counter. But i think it's playable on your deck.

- shackles - same thing like cryptic.. getting 2/3 island in early game for me is very hard. However i think in your deck, with the addition of those new fetchs, i think this is playable.

- i think you pack enough counters, specially if you consider glen. if they are too slow?! well, that's very meta dependent.

As for the cards you mention last:
- well future sight i played i addition with rector, eventually i lost both. Too slow, unless you have tons of control MU.
- solemn, if you add more basic, probably a yes on this one, even for shadowmage (this one gets killed 99% of the time =/)
- voidslime i used to play it but cut it (too mana intensive). stiffle is great.
- raven crime: not a huge fan of this card in this deck, i think you either play mroe disruption, duress, mind twist, etc, or don't play this at all)
- krosan verge, in your deck i think it's not that good (if you cut R)
-  yes on trygon, early drop, kills mana artifacts/BTB/winter orb and early block + it's a flyer.
- don't like pulse or story. too limited, imo.


Hope it helps. You should really downgrade from 4,5 to 4 or upgrade to 5. It makes your deck more consistent, IMO.

[Lorian]

Hey Mythrandir,

first thank you for that elaborate answer, i really appreciate that.
But hey, obviously you do fancy Dragonlance so you have to be a good guy.
Ok, enough sweet talking for this month.
I'm going to give you my thoughts to your ideas, followed up by some Changes i will be testing from here on.

First to the "big decision" of being 4,  4,5 , or 5 coloured:

I still favour the 4,5 at the moment.
I saw in your answer that you know the problem of "what land exactly to fetch now?" as in ruling out Cryptic Command and Vedalken Shackles.
I've been pure 5C before i downgraded to 4,5 and often had the situation, that i couldn't play my next draw 'cause of colour screw - especially in the critical first turns vs. aggro.
This gets exaggerated because for me, i like to fetch some important bascis (U/W/G in that order) as soon as i feel the threat of Moons.

Interesting additional point here : I've lost many a game to the one critical LD or Signet-Kill in rounds 1 to 3.
You can hl-mulligan your hand with that deck to some nice first rounds plays but are too dependant on the colours one specific mana source gives you.

How exactly do you manage that situation?
I think this decisions here might be based more on personal playing style than on pure logical cardchoices.

Related to that i feel it would get even worse by playing more basics.
But the enemy fetchlands will change a lot here.
Btw: I couldn't play that many more basics after all (Tainted Pact).
To be exactly it's two of them: Snow-Covered Plains and Forest.
On purpose i don't use xBB Spells so no need for the snow swamp.
The snow plains would be my first choice of course but from my experience i often have too much white already 'cause of Flagstones, Karakas and Eternal Dragon. (I really deem it funny that in 9/10 times when going for the loam engine i'll Intuition for the white cycle land instead of the blue one in a U-based deck )
In the end it comes down to either snow plains or Flagstones.

But i see your point that it's not worth it to rule out red cards 100%.
Hide/Seek will see my deck immediatly and i will give Lightning Helix a go over PtE and see how that works for me.

Concerning the pure 4C-Idea:
Constraint and EE are so much more powerfull at 5 and in Mire and Foothills i have two fetchlands that sometimes need the mountain to find me the colour i need right now. This will probably get "worse" with the enemy fetchs.

Ok, enough of the general talk and to the specific cards:

Lands

• Tabernacle

Seems i missed a card in listing the ones, that are too expensive for my tastes.
Apart from that i wouldn't play it in this deck.
5C-Oath: Yeah Auto-Include but i'm playing 19 creatures myself and besides that mostly instants EoT of the opponent's turn.
Having to pay for even one or two of my creatures early would severly hold me down.
What are your experiences here in your 5-C ?
Do you play that many 3CC Creatures as i do?

• Mishra's Factory

Hehe, that was one of my last cuts. The colourless did hurt me too much and most of the times i used it for mana only anyways.

• Rhishadan Port

Similiar to Mishra's. I want the mana for my EoT Fact, Impulse, Worldly, etc..
Enemy Man-Lands so far have never been proven a problem for me.
Wasteland & Crop Rotation or Intuition & Loam / Pithing Needle & Trinket Mage work for me here.
Do you play the Needle?

• Urborg

I would see that when playing Mishra's and Port for sure.
Then again i only got 7,5 black spells, none of them BB.
Similiar land:

• Riftstone Portal

I would really like to incooperate this one, if only i could think of a reliable way to get it into my graveyard early. This would really help loads!
So far i got Crop Rotation or some crazy Brainstorm/Sensei & Dredge Vodoo or in rare situations FoF.
Thirst for Knowledge comes to mind but i play too few artifacts.
Compulsive Research is a Sorcery...
None of the Retrace Cards is good enough to be played only for this synergy.
Trade Routes is too slow.
Zuran Orb sucks.
Balance is banned.
Any ideas to this one?

• Vesuva

This one i would like to test.
I just don't know what to cut for it.
Which brings us to:

• Acadmey Ruins

The answer to your question is: Intuition(Gifts) for LftL, Ruins, Etched Oracle/Pithing Needle/EE/Sensei. (given, Etched could be also be done with Volrath's)
I really do think that early Sensei's wins the control mirror though.
Many people disagree with me in its importance.

• Mirage Fetchies

Yeah, will be replaced by the enemy fetchlands for sure.
So long i need more then 5 of those Colour-Fixers and Domain Enablers.
[/list]

Creatures:

• Acadmey Rector

Yeah, this guy gives me headaches, too.
What is his huge merit:
T1: CiP-Land
T2: Land, Signet
T3: Land, Rector (aiming for Restraint then)
Which is one of the best plays vs. Sligh/RDW that this deck has.
Additionally with Eldamaris Call he's the Replacement for the newly banned Enlightened.
Deed and Restraint are such key-cards in the aggro matchup...

• Stoic Angel

Also wins me lots of Aggro Matchups.
Why did he not prevail your tests? Colour-Requirements?

• Tarmo & Figurine

I only have that many creature slots.
These for sure are great ones, but they neither provide card-advantage nor solutions/tools like shriekmaw or Qasali.

• Planeswalker

It seems i'm missing some big point with those guys.
If i'd play a second one it would be Elspeth.
I just don't understand what a PW who can't protect himself by bringing along Token-Creatures can be played in a control deck (exception being Oath for obvious reasons).
It always feels like tapping out in my own turn for an expensive Fog.
How exactly would you make use of Lilli or Jace vs. an aggro Deck?

• Doran

I will gibe that guy a try.
Funny thing again is, that i persume its Colour requirements are less difficult to meet than those of the War Monk.
Do you know the strange problem that 3 Colours with blue are harder to cast then 3 colours without blue?
[/list]

Draw/Tutor:
I will try to incorporate Tithe and Shred Memories.
While i shy away from the BB for the transmute another Tutor for Mana Drain, LfTl, newly added Lightning Helix, Artefact/Enchantment Removal, occasional Colourfixing with Signets or namely any card with Demoic sounds very very reasonable. As does just winning those LftL battles.

I share your experiences with Personal Tutor.
In the end it's a second and very bad Demonic in 6/10 cases, Lftl without those looked after lands in the grave or a forseeable Vindicate or WoG in 2/10 cases each. Will become Tithe.

Permission:
I favour Forbid for the LftL synergies.
But i see your point for Dissipate if my Meta would be lotsa LftL / Oath.

Removal:
Most of your points taken.
I don't like PtE all too much either, though it's the second Intuition target for those anyoing indestructable or insane thoughness guy.
Damnation i don't see in this deck very soon 'cause of BB alone, it's a pitty.

Your Autoincludes:

• Hide/Seek

Point taken.

• Lightning Helix

I will give it a try instead of PtE and share my experiences here in some days.

• Tarmo & Damnation

See my ideas to them above.

• Regrowth

Yeah, no Regwoth as for now. It's replaced with Witness 'cause of Volrath's Stronghold and Eldamari's Call.
It would be my 101st card for sure but i don't see what to cut for it.
My Problem with it are mainly 2 points:
It sucks early game if not by some lucky chance you have drawn the perfect card for the given board situation already.
While being perfect with Gifts and Intuiton most of the times, for me it's too slow to grab my solution out of the graveyard and play it the turn after ('cause not having enough mana to do it both in the same turn).
And most of the times i deem LftL + Acadmey Ruins/Volrath's Stronghold + Solution the better play as it is recurable and not one shot only.
[/list]

Comments to your comments on my comments:
We're agreeing here in most points.

My opinion differs only with few cards:

• Bant Charm

Most guys see it as Counter first, as you seem to do.
I see it as StP#2 first with some nice options of being a shatter or counter that draw-spell or counter of your own important spell.

• Trygon Predator

Apart from some random games vs. heavy artefact based decks he won me luckily by just apearing turn three, i always thought "Couldn't you be Qasali right now?!".
The point is, that most decks that run high problem Arts / Enchantments also run a lot of creature removal.
In what cases / vs. which kind of decks does Trygon do that good for you?
[/list]


Ok, before i come to the newly made changes that are going to be playtested, the answer to the other question of you:
I play this deck RL and in MWS.
And yeah, the manaproblems - be it too many or too less manasources - are much more commonplace in MWS.
Seems like Pile-Shuffling isn't thaaaat random after all.


Newly made Changes to the Deck:

X Krosan Verge Doran Shred memory Tithe Lightning Helix Hide / Seek

replaces

Y Grasslands Rhox War Monk Skeletal Scrying Personal Tutor Path to Exile Cryptic Command

Cards i would like to play / test but just can't find anything to cut for:

• Vesuva

The closest bet might be Academy ruins but i deem recurring EE and Needle so much more effective.
I will look at this again when i modify the mana-base with the new enemy fetchlands.

• Stifle

Any justified cut-suggestions?

• Regrowth

I feel this card is for whatever mystical reasons doomed to be my 101st card for all eternity! [/list]

[Mythrandir]

Hey Mythrandir,

first thank you for that elaborate answer, i really appreciate that.
But hey, obviously you do fancy Dragonlance so you have to be a good guy.
Ok, enough sweet talking for this month.
I'm going to give you my thoughts to your ideas, followed up by some Changes i will be testing from here on.

no problem

I still favour the 4,5 at the moment.
I saw in your answer that you know the problem of "what land exactly to fetch now?" as in ruling out Cryptic Command and Vedalken Shackles.
I've been pure 5C before i downgraded to 4,5 and often had the situation, that i couldn't play my next draw 'cause of colour screw - especially in the critical first turns vs. aggro.
This gets exaggerated because for me, i like to fetch some important bascis (U/W/G in that order) as soon as i feel the threat of Moons.

well, i mainly play via MWS, and i yes, there are situations where i'm color screw, but that's very common. i play 38 + 5 artifacts and i still get mana screw. you'r bound to have some bad hands. The main problem i see is you aren't focused enough, for me having access to R just for the sake of explosives, collective, and counsil, seems like not a very good idea.
As for BTB/moon and the likes, specially the first one i try to grab a forest (krosan grip) as soon as i can, but it's very situational. magus of the moon isn't as bad for me since i pack burn (so red is no problem)

But i see your point that it's not worth it to rule out red cards 100%.
Hide/Seek will see my deck immediatly and i will give Lightning Helix a go over PtE and see how that works for me.

Seriously, those two, are one of the reasons i havent cut red at all. Helix is such a powerful card.

Concerning the pure 4C-Idea:
Constraint and EE are so much more powerfull at 5 and in Mire and Foothills i have two fetchlands that sometimes need the mountain to find me the colour i need right now. This will probably get "worse" with the enemy fetchs.

Again, "destroying" your mana just for two cards, in a 100 card deck, doesn't really cut it for me, just my opinion.

Lands

• Tabernacle

Seems i missed a card in listing the ones, that are too expensive for my tastes.
Apart from that i wouldn't play it in this deck.
5C-Oath: Yeah Auto-Include but i'm playing 19 creatures myself and besides that mostly instants EoT of the opponent's turn.
Having to pay for even one or two of my creatures early would severly hold me down.
What are your experiences here in your 5-C ?
Do you play that many 3CC Creatures as i do?

well, first of all i play 6 critters below and equal to the 3 CMC. I like tabernacle, many times it has saved. Of course it as bad card to have vs non-aggro. But i suggest moat instead of this, i think it's better (if you want to spend the money, of course). But i also play urborg, so... this aint as bad.

• Mishra's Factory

Hehe, that was one of my last cuts. The colourless did hurt me too much and most of the times i used it for mana only anyways.

• Rhishadan Port

Similiar to Mishra's. I want the mana for my EoT Fact, Impulse, Worldly, etc..
Enemy Man-Lands so far have never been proven a problem for me.
Wasteland & Crop Rotation or Intuition & Loam / Pithing Needle & Trinket Mage work for me here.
Do you play the Needle?

Nop, i don't play needle.. don't know what to cut, but great card, even for PW. i like factory, manlands have won me numerous lands, plus getting a vesuva targeting your facory is always fun
As for rishadan port it's really good denying mana, specially in multicolor decks (we probably know this better than other ppl ) vs the manland is just a bonus

• Urborg

I would see that when playing Mishra's and Port for sure.
Then again i only got 7,5 black spells, none of them BB.
Similiar land:

• Riftstone Portal

I would really like to incooperate this one, if only i could think of a reliable way to get it into my graveyard early. This would really help loads!
So far i got Crop Rotation or some crazy Brainstorm/Sensei & Dredge Vodoo or in rare situations FoF.
Thirst for Knowledge comes to mind but i play too few artifacts.
Compulsive Research is a Sorcery...
None of the Retrace Cards is good enough to be played only for this synergy.
Trade Routes is too slow.
Zuran Orb sucks.
Balance is banned.
Any ideas to this one?

Yeah, for you, urborg doesnt seem that good. i also woulnd't play rifstone. you probably wanna add a land (color) into play that trying to get this to the grave, IMO. not worth the trouble, specially if you say you get W a lot

• Vesuva

This one i would like to test.
I just don't know what to cut for it.
Which brings us to:

• Acadmey Ruins

The answer to your question is: Intuition(Gifts) for LftL, Ruins, Etched Oracle/Pithing Needle/EE/Sensei. (given, Etched could be also be done with Volrath's)
I really do think that early Sensei's wins the control mirror though.
Many people disagree with me in its importance.

Vesuva is really cool. double maze, double factory, legendary wasteland, mana fixing. I like it a lot!! you should test it
as for academy, EE you already got stronghold, sensei usually doesnt go to the grave that easy. even then, your adding a colorless producing land for 3/4 cards!! If you playd the stuffy doll combo, then i would get it. this way, i really don't. But again, i play way mroe colorless lands than you, so you probably can afford this

• Acadmey Rector

Yeah, this guy gives me headaches, too.
What is his huge merit:
T1: CiP-Land
T2: Land, Signet
T3: Land, Rector (aiming for Restraint then)
Which is one of the best plays vs. Sligh/RDW that this deck has.
Additionally with Eldamaris Call he's the Replacement for the newly banned Enlightened.
Deed and Restraint are such key-cards in the aggro matchup...

and what about control? Again having a 4 CMC critter just to get collective restraint isn't worth it, IMO. i´ve played with it too, and i had moat, collective, future sight, but it wasn't that good, because it was a bit slow

• Stoic Angel

Also wins me lots of Aggro Matchups.
Why did he not prevail your tests? Colour-Requirements?

yeap, color problems and 4 CMC, i used to play it because i had a lot of problems with flyers, but the meta changed, and this one wasn't good enough.

• Tarmo & Figurine

I only have that many creature slots.
These for sure are great ones, but they neither provide card-advantage nor solutions/tools like shriekmaw or Qasali.

But they provide an essential thing! Pressure/blockers, getting a FoD online first turn is crazy and so is tarmog, specially if you're able to use LFLT. i wasn't a very big fan of tarmo, mainly because it didn't scream control to me, but i've surrender to evidences!

• Planeswalker

It seems i'm missing some big point with those guys.
If i'd play a second one it would be Elspeth.
I just don't understand what a PW who can't protect himself by bringing along Token-Creatures can be played in a control deck (exception being Oath for obvious reasons).
It always feels like tapping out in my own turn for an expensive Fog.
How exactly would you make use of Lilli or Jace vs. an aggro Deck?

Besides garruk, i play jace. Jace vs control is a machine, vs aggro usually it's a 3 mana fog with a cantrip, even then i don't feel robbed. As for lilian, don't play it myself, but playing it, using tutor -> collective/moat/wog and gaining one extra turn by "fogging", seems ok. But you want to avoid double B.

• Doran

I will gibe that guy a try.
Funny thing again is, that i persume its Colour requirements are less difficult to meet than those of the War Monk.
Do you know the strange problem that 3 Colours with blue are harder to cast then 3 colours without blue?
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LOL, probably because you useed U a lot, so you seem like you never have enough. I prefer doran, also because of the legendary status (karakas), which i know can also be a bad thing. Again this guy is alll about pressure on the table.

I share your experiences with Personal Tutor.
In the end it's a second and very bad Demonic in 6/10 cases, Lftl without those looked after lands in the grave or a forseeable Vindicate or WoG in 2/10 cases each. Will become Tithe.

yeap, very bad tutor... your opponent gets to see, you need one extra turn, unless being able to draw. didn't do it for me

• Regrowth

Yeah, no Regwoth as for now. It's replaced with Witness 'cause of Volrath's Stronghold and Eldamari's Call.
It would be my 101st card for sure but i don't see what to cut for it.
My Problem with it are mainly 2 points:
It sucks early game if not by some lucky chance you have drawn the perfect card for the given board situation already.
While being perfect with Gifts and Intuiton most of the times, for me it's too slow to grab my solution out of the graveyard and play it the turn after ('cause not having enough mana to do it both in the same turn).
And most of the times i deem LftL + Acadmey Ruins/Volrath's Stronghold + Solution the better play as it is recurable and not one shot only.
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Well, bad card early, great card middle/late game. Like most of cards. You don't want to draw a signet late game, do you? getting a mana drain, FoF, gifts, etc, etc from your grave is freaking awesome! i played it and eternal witness

My opinion differs only with few cards:

• Bant Charm

Most guys see it as Counter first, as you seem to do.
I see it as StP#2 first with some nice options of being a shatter or counter that draw-spell or counter of your own important spell.

well, 3 CMC for removal, specially with all those colors, seem to much to me (in my deck). But, the truth is i run jund charm.. lol. mass instant removal is always nice

• Trygon Predator

Apart from some random games vs. heavy artefact based decks he won me luckily by just apearing turn three, i always thought "Couldn't you be Qasali right now?!".
The point is, that most decks that run high problem Arts / Enchantments also run a lot of creature removal.
In what cases / vs. which kind of decks does Trygon do that good for you?
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Once it hits the table, my opponent won't play BTB, winter orb, etc, etc without dealing with this. It kills mana accel (artifacts). At worse it's a cheap flyer/blocker



I'm gonna edit my list here on the forum, and link it yo you, so expect an edited version of this post


EDITED: http://www.magicplayer.org/forum/index.php?topic=13.new#new -> my list




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