Bannings as of July 1st, 2009

[Nastaboi]

It does not, unless you happen to have another CIP creature in play/grave, which is often the state. Not so much on turn 3, I'm gonna give that to you.

[Sturmgott]

So you randomly decide to unban it and now you have created a 2 card combo with buried and animation. So what I don't get is: Buried Alive has far more applications than Kiki so why shutting off the more useful piece?

We did not create a combo here. We rather stopped a combo at the time we banned Kiki-Jiki. The reason to ban Kiki-Jiki was Buried Alive and everybody and their dog shouted at us "why didn't you ban Buried Alive, nobody cares for that card, but everyone wants to go Kiki-Jiki!!". We simply think that having Kiki-Jiki AND Buried Alive in the format is not healthy. Buried Alive has had it's time now, so now we switched for some new interaction.

[Sturmgott]

It does not, unless you happen to have another CIP creature in play/grave, which is often the state. Not so much on turn 3, I'm gonna give that to you.

Ok, so it does require some sort of setup. It's not "I win without having announced anything and it costs me only 4 mana and 5 life". That may look like a small difference to you - I think it makes a huge difference.

btw, I never really liked what Reveillark does. Got to have a close look on that card as well.

[coldcrow]

Created was worded wrong, I admit, (Should proof-read my posts more), re-enabled would be better.

I can live with that reasoning, though I don't really see Kiki having the same degree of usefulness as Buried Alive.

[so_not]

Survival isn't a 1 card "combo", it is a reusable cheap tutor having an insane synergy with a certain goblin (generating even CA on top of tutoring).

Not 1 card combo?
EOT fetch Body Double, fetch Nantuko Husk, fetch Murderous Redcap, fetch Reveillark, untap, evoke Reveillark...

[coldcrow]

Not 1 card combo?
EOT fetch Body Double, fetch Nantuko Husk, fetch Murderous Redcap, fetch Reveillark, untap, evoke Reveillark...

The combo/synergy are the reanimators + CIP + sac-outlet/whatever, survival is the tutor.

[Nastaboi]

Let's not get into semantics. If you only have to draw one card to assemble a combo, then it is called one-card combo. I don't even use Squee in my Survival decks, it is a wasted slot when you straight out win if you get to untap with Survival.

[Sturmgott]

Not 1 card combo?
EOT fetch Body Double, fetch Nantuko Husk, fetch Murderous Redcap, fetch Reveillark, untap, evoke Reveillark...

Let's see what we have here. First of all we need to find and resolve Survival of the Fittest. We then need to have a creature card in hand. We need GGGG at the end of turn, probably not the turn we played Survival unless at that point we already had 6 mana, of which 5 are G. Even if we did have that, we still have to say go so opponent gets a full turn to care about this combo.

If we look at it from a more realistic point of view, we play Survival, say go, fetch one or two creatures at end of turn (let's assume we already had a creature card in hand (2nd condition to set up the combo). In our next turn we play let's say a Wall of Roots and say go. At the next EoT of your opponent, you activate SotF again and fetch for the missing pieces, hoping to find that sixth mana so you can now Evoke Reveillark. This gives your opponent two full turns to interrupt you.

Tell me, why would we ban something as slow as that??

[so_not]

I was just telling that this is a one card combo, not that it should be banned. I consider also Gift Ungiven and Goblin Recruiter as one card combos.

[Sturmgott]

Sorry, you're right. Of course SotF is a one-card-combo in that respect. Oh, and Door to Nothingness is also a one-card combo.

[Sturmgott]

If you call Gifts Ungiven a one-card-combo, then tell me a realistic Gifts composition with which you win the turn after Gifts, that is, with no previous setup except a reasonable amount of mana (let's assume you have 5 mana in your next turn after Gifts).

[Nastaboi]

Battle of Wits, two regrowths, Pact of Negation. 

The problem with Survival and Gifts is not only that they are one-card combos but they are also everything else if needed to. Earthcraft or Kiki-Jiki does nothing if you are facing lethal the following turn. Gifts and Survival will find you right cards in any situation in addition to just winning if you are not under pressure.

The luxurious thing with Gifts and Survival is that you don't have to rush for victory. You can just see what your opponent is doing, and if it's something threatening, fetch for suitable solutions. If your opponent is playing control, go for card advantage and overwhelm him. If he has nothing, just win. The point is, in every situation you will win the game. The two former just give your opponent delucion that they have not lost though they already have.

[Vazdru]

That’s all well and good, but one question is still open-ended!

Why should we ban Gifts when Aggro Decks like WW, B-Sui and R/G are still able to deal with all deck around?

Btw. In former times â€"about 2 1/2 years ago- I was the guy who demanded energeticly the ban of gifts in endless debates with and against the HL council:

one short extract:

Vazdru, 01.11.2006, 11:44

________________________________________
Unbannings:

Gifts bringt also nicht nur etwas in einer Zwei-Karten-Kombo, sie ist eine derartige Kombo !

Gifts Ungiven ist in den Top 8 des diesjährigen GP 4mal vertreten (Jans Staxx, 2x TPS, UG) !!!, letztes Jahr 3mal (Jans 5c, Dredgeatog, UG), im Vergleich dazu: Trinisphere in beiden Jahren gerade mal 1x. Auf den folgenden Plätzen ist Gifts sicherlich ähnlich oft vertreten wie in den Top 8 (den Eindruck hatte ich zumindest) - also knapp in jedem zweiten Deck ?!?!

IN SHORT WORDS: Gifts is a 1-card-combo that ruled Top 8 of GP 2 and 1, a card which was omnipresent and must be banned.

But that were the times when Staxx, TPS and U/G ruled the meta in every manner.

Now the things look quite different to me. A WW wins GP VI, a edit: Naya-Zoo/Boros ruled our HLL and B-Sui is able to deal with all the big threats like Survival, LoA and Gifts Ungiven.

Plz try to free your mind from always singing the same tune and believe me in one thing - should the times return when Gifts Ungiven dominates the meta again I will be the first guy standing right beside you voting for its ban!

And plz try to bring you in mind how the meta looked like before Gifts Ungiven and Survival had their first appearance and how it could look like after we would ban them....even more mono-colored and bi-colored aggro-decks esp. RDW and WW ?!?! Is that a vision you like?

Or just describe your thoughts what would happen if Survival and Gifts had gone.

[Mythrandir]

. The point is, in every situation you will win the game. The two former just give your opponent delucion that they have not lost though they already have.

Not exactly, i have Gifts many times in my hand and i´m able to play it EOT 4th and even then i lose to aggro... Gifts isn't a magical card that says "you Win", far from it. Yes, it can be used for battle + 2 regrowths + pact, but even that doesnt win you outright (on 4th turn), and on 4th turn aggro is probably reaching your critical damage zone

If you read our league scoreboard you'll see more things like: geddon -> win, BTB -> win, PoP -> win, etc, etc. Thatn Gifts -> win. And of course Gifts is a huge CA, but so is LFTL + cycle cards, so is a 4th turn mind twist, or a 1st turn LoA, and like Vazdru said the fairytale of LoA -> win is not that right.

Why would we ban a card if there are ton of decks (aggro, specially) that really don't "care" if you have gifts in your library/hand?

In your meta do you really lose everytime your opponent plays gifts?

[Nastaboi]

Not exactly, i have Gifts many times in my hand and i´m able to play it EOT 4th and even then i lose to aggro...

Then you are playing the card wrong. Why don't you just go something like Wrath, Hierarch, Primal Command, Faith's Fetters and call it a day?

And of course Gifts is a huge CA, but so is LFTL + cycle cards, so is a 4th turn mind twist, or a 1st turn LoA, and like Vazdru said the fairytale of LoA -> win is not that right.

Gifts is often used to set up LFTL engine, but I agree with you on two the latter. They can be frustrating cards to lose against and require less skill to take advantage. I would not mind these two getting banhammered.

In your meta do you really lose everytime your opponent plays gifts?

No, if my opponent is incompetent or has already lost the game. I lose too sometimes after Gifts when I can't figure right cards for the situation in reasonable time.