The price of casual format

[pyyhttu]

Those of you who are unaware: Still banned cards have been added to the current watch list in order to play test them and consequently possibly unbanning them on April 15th. To my knowledge this is the first time an announcement has been made in advance regarding to changes in watch list. Kudos to that.

But this time it also raises some serious controversial thoughts as the watch list has been included with power nine cards, namely Ancestral Recall.

Ben Bleiweiss said: "Drawing three cards as an instant for a single blue mana is so ridiculous that nothing even remotely close to this card has been attempted again in Magic."

Ancestral Recall has now been taken into testing. and thus it's one of the cards to be potentially unbanned in four months. It was included to "help" control decks to battle against the slight dominance of lately emerged various aggro decks. This is what Frank Topel told us at german board, translated by Google:

If anything, a slight imbalance in the format exists, it seems that in a slight dominance of Aggro to lie, which is certainly not least of which is owed Spoils Mulligan. As to this, but surely no one wants to renounce again, and furthermore, the aggro decks Bannings not cope with is, we want to try different cards, which could help control decks. One of these cards could certainly be Ancestral Recall. The problem here is one I believe that a shift in the direction of the format T1 would be perceived, on the other hand, that only limited IU / CE Ancestral available seem weenn them are quite affordable (around 70, - euro, apart from that it was not T1 few players also play HL and the card always have).

Also, we see potential for abuse in the form of massive Regrowth effects, especially in UGX decks. Also Isochronous Scepter / Ancestral appears dangerous. But once to see how this card would indeed, it is on the watchlist Unban released for testing.

If my understanding via translation was right, the claims presented by Sturmgott were either a bad joke or a horrendously wrong analysis how the Ancestral Recall would "help" the format.

Aside the fact that Ancestrall Recall would be a no-brainer-auto-insert in every deck that just splashed for blue, regardless if it was combo, aggro or control, a P9 policy we are embracing here would only prune casual players and accessibility for the format.

A claim that a card is affordable from the CE/IE-sets is perilously misleading if you take the actual resell value into account: The cards from the aforementioned sets hold some value to collectors (Time Twister goes for about $40 and Ancestral Recall respectively for ~$100 in the secondary market at the moment).

What happens to the resell value after you've made it legal in Highlander?

And no, by that I don't mean the effect of the unbanning process but the actual mutilation of them when you take out the scissors and round the corners and make CE/IE card tournament legal by the HL current rules.

The card drops instantly from earlier mint to poor and if you get it sold for 1/10th of the list price then you can call yourself lucky. Collectors won't even think buying that. And this comes solely from the standpoint of a collector.

Investment for a non-tournament legal card in sanctioned events and solely for a casual format is questionable even from the hardcore player perspective and this just starts to be plain stupid. In addition a ~$350 tournament stable contradicts the earlier banning of Imperial Seal, which was banned due to availability and monetary issues.

Why would Ancestral Recall be different and how would it make the format *any* better from this standpoint? Or has the secondary market ever been a naming factor for the players or banned list maintainers of the format?

[Nastaboi]

Just thinking of unbanning Ancestral is plain silly, and strenghten the image of the council having absolutely no idea what they are doing. Cards should be banned on basis of their individual power, not the power of the decks they are played in. If fast aggro decks became utterly dominant - what they definately are not - then consider banning the most powerful cards in them. I see no problem if RDW/Goblins is the best deck in the format, because THERE WILL ALWAYS BE THE BEST DECK, in every format. The metagame will adapt accordingly, the new sets will bring new cards, and someday something else will be the best deck.

The format already has some overpriced cards, most notably Workshop, Bazaar, Library, Drain and Portal goodies. One can build a competitive deck without them, or one can have them in his deck and run through a tournament never drawing into them. They don't make the barrier to entry or even compete in the format too high, but that's because they are not that much powerful than many other reasonably priced stables. Allowing P9 (+Will) would just be silly and make combo-control only viable archtype.

[Sturmgott]

Stating that just thinking about something is silly reveals just that the author of something like that should maybe mind his own business. And no, we will ensure that there will never be a best deck in the Highlander format. I do totally disagree with you on that as well.

All we did this time is to encourage players to locally test certain cards which might help to a) optimize the banned list in respect to which cards could probably be unbanned without an unhealthy effect on the format and b) furthermore diversify the format. If you want to play a format with a defined, best deck, go play extended and slam those Elves! at your opponent. We'll always work hard to make sure that HL will not have a best deck, or as it was the case with Flash/Hulk, not for too long.

[Nastaboi]

If you go to a tournament, you will have better changes of winning if you decide to go with a deck rather than some another option. And there will be a deck, that'll give you most change of winning that tournament. So there will always be the best deck by definition. That deck can constantly change and might just have like at most two percent edge against the second best deck, and that deck will have bad matchups as well. But you can do nothing to the fact that some deck will always be the best. You can just ensure that the best deck will be the best by just a small margin.

Unbanning Ancestral is not going to make format better. Control decks will run it as well as skies, and it will give control decks more wins. If you draw Ancestral in the opening, you just win. Period. It's just making the format more random and luck-based, not healthier. In a singleton format, overpowered singletons are too dangerous to be allowed.

Oh and I own an Ancestral and would smash face with it in my local metagame where no one else has one.

[Mythrandir]

If you draw Ancestral in the opening, you just win. Period. .

well, i dont agree with this, but i do think that it is dangerous to unban recall, for two main reasons:

a) Every deck thats runs blue, even as splash, will (would run, if they had one) play one, this includes (and not limited) to: control, aggro, aggro control, combo, etc. So if the problem is aggro, adding this to Ux skies or UW aggro wont help much.

b) This would mean that "everybody" would have to get 1 ancestral and for me the biggest problem isnt so getting it, but getting it and then appearing a deck that dominates or abuses ancestral therefore having to ban ancestral again. which would leave me with an unplayable (in HL) and expensive card.

The sames goes for LOA, i´ve been thinking of getting one, but i wanna give it more time to actually see if it doesnt get banned again, at least until abril 15th.

i'm the one who talked about P3 cards in the questionnaire and ancestral seems to fit that criteria. Hard/expensive cards to get.

and yes, i´m a control player (5cc) who hates 4/5 turn games against aggro.

[pyyhttu]

According to Sturmgott, Ancestral will shift the format more towards control as every control deck will play it and splash for it. We had a discussion about this last night.

Also with all the tutors running around, Ancestral tend to favor control decks more on the longer run, and sometimes this is still relevant against aggros: If you can't fetch that Wrath of God because of mana screw issues, you then end up with a cheaper Ancestral and hope to draw both land and an answer.

Ancestral is going to be an auto insert in both control and blue supported aggro decks thus would *not* ultimately balance anything in the format. We would just create an unwanted side effect by steepening the format's overall cost and accessibility, which has so far been one major benefit of this format. Would you risk that?

Plus we are talking about a tilt towards blue here. This starts to resemble more Vintage, where main deck anti blue solutions are being played. This also takes away certain "distinctiveness" the highlander format currently has: one can play every color in a control deck without blue being the dominant one. My fear is that Ancestral would ruin that.

I fail to see why the format needs fixing just now when meta is diverse as ever. Because the latest GP top-8 happened to had 6 aggro decks? Is aggro really a problem and thus unbanning Ancestral one of the correct remedies to it?

Oh and I own an Ancestral and would smash face with it in my local metagame where no one else has one.

I'm part of this local metagame and don't currently own Ancestral. So yes: one could ask if it's sane to shell out an extra $350 just to keep up with a non-sanctioned tournament scene and hope I didn't do an empty investment as in whim of council Ancestral might be banned again any time? At least in Vintage it is quaranteed I get to play with that sole one.

Those who want to play vintage but can't afford, play highlander instead. Unbanning candidate like these are excellent to spread FUD amongst player base.

[Mythrandir]

Also with all the tutors running around, Ancestral tend to favor control decks more on the longer run, and sometimes this is still relevant against aggros: If you can't fetch that Wrath of God because of mana screw issues, you then end up with a cheaper Ancestral and hope to draw both land and an answer.

then i´d prefer to have vampiric tutor. because it can search me the exact answer. loxodon, wog, collective restraint, land (mana/color screw, maze of ith), etc.. and yes i know it might enable quciker combo decks...

Ancestral is going to be an auto insert in both control and blue supported aggro decks thus would *not* ultimately balance anything in the format. We would just create an unwanted side effect by steepening the format's overall cost and accessibility, which has so far been one major benefit of this format. Would you risk that?

from here

"We wish to make this format available and accessible for as many persons as possible without being too restricted by the wallet. Here care must be taken that the played cards from such editions not differ from the back side from "normal" cards e.g. using opaque card shields or rounding the corners of I.E. or C.E. cards. This preserves the availability of the format for beginners without restricting the card pool."

The "problem" with recall is the cost that can be both used in aggro and control, thus not really giving the upper hand to control. Yes U = 3 cards can get u both the land + the option to stay alive in control. But it can also give aggro those last points of damage needed (more critters, equipment, burn, etc, etc)

Plus we are talking about a tilt towards blue here. This starts to resemble more Vintage, where main deck anti blue solutions are being played. This also takes away certain "distinctiveness" the highlander format currently has: one can play every color in a control deck without blue being the dominant one. My fear is that Ancestral would ruin that.

Really dont think so, blue is already a heavy played color even in aggro. most ppl already splash it for these 3 cards: FOF, intuition, gifts. so they would be just splashing for 4.
But yes, it´s still dangerous to unban it

[Orja]

Stating that just thinking about something is silly reveals just that the author of something like that should maybe mind his own business.

Milk is white. Ice is cold. Earth is round. Ancestral Recall is broken.

And no, we will ensure that there will never be a best deck in the Highlander format. I do totally disagree with you on that as well.

Then we are not playing the same game. As far as I know, we were talking about magic. In every format, there is a dominant deck, which is better know as "the best deck". Metagame will shift to hose that deck, and there will be another best deck.

All we did this time is to encourage players to locally test certain cards which might help to a) optimize the banned list in respect to which cards could probably be unbanned without an unhealthy effect on the format and

And in all seriousness, you are talking about healthy format and ancestrall recall in same sentence?! That is the second most broken card in magic history, and unbanning it won't make anything healtier.

b) furthermore diversify the format. If you want to play a format with a defined, best deck, go play extended and slam those Elves! at your opponent. We'll always work hard to make sure that HL will not have a best deck, or as it was the case with Flash/Hulk, not for too long.

Diversify format? Like... err... Sensei's Divining Top? It is a card that every deck should run. Ancestrall Recall is a card that every deck WILL run, be it mono R goblins or mono G elves. Your comment about the elf deck really delivered this thread though, good work.

EDIT: If you want diversity in the format, go ahead and unban Yawgmoth's Will. It can't be worse than ancestral recall anyway...

And if you had any clue of the format in question, you'd know that aggro decks are far from dominating the format.

[so_not]

Yeah Ancestral, Timetwister and Wheel. Go ahead and unban them...

Then what the hell is Back to Basics, Loam and Earthcraft doing in that watch list. And where is Gifts Ungiven?

[coldcrow]

Actually I see twister and wheel as more dangerous. This (and ancestral recall) will give manaramp combo/prison decks the needed probability to draw and play a bomb in the first 3 turns and win.

[Mythrandir]

And where is Gifts Ungiven?

I´m taking a shot in the dark here:

but if the commitee wants to balance things by giving control better options it isnt by removing gifts. Gifts is control/combo card. you dont see (at least i dont) gobs running gifts or skies running gifts or other aggro decks, you might seem it in decks that make use of the grave, but u dont see zoos, RDW, gobos, weenies running gifts.

Also, i resolved quite some few gifts by now and what i can say is that yes, it helps a lot,it might even get me a win on a almost lost game but it´s not an automatic win condition, specially against aggro where it might be too late. The same thing applies to my opponent's gifts, i dont lose everytime my opponent plays and resolves a gifts ungiven.

And no, we will ensure that there will never be a best deck in the Highlander format. I do totally disagree with you on that as well.

i think what he meant by this is that Highlander doesnt have a best deck in terms of what we see in other formats where all across the world the top8 are full of the same decks.

This GP on the top8 we had:
WW
UG mid range?
ZOO
RG beats
suicidial black
Oath

i cant seem to find the other 2 decks..

Even though its an aggro Top8 there isnt a dominant/best deck there.

Unlike somes formats where 6, 7 out of the top 8 are faeries...

This is what i understand from his phrase. Feel free to correct me Sturmgott

[Vazdru]

i think what he meant by this is that Highlander doesnt have a best deck in terms of what we see in other formats where all across the world the top8 are full of the same decks.

This GP on the top8 we had:
WW
UG mid range?
ZOO
RG beats
suicidial black
Oath

i cant seem to find the other 2 decks..

Even though its an aggro Top8 there isnt a dominant/best deck there.

The other two decks in the Top 8 were Boros + RDW.

[so_not]

but if the commitee wants to balance things by giving control better options it isnt by removing gifts. Gifts is control/combo card. you dont see (at least i dont) gobs running gifts or skies running gifts or other aggro decks, you might seem it in decks that make use of the grave, but u dont see zoos, RDW, gobos, weenies running gifts.

No, I don't see gobs or skies running gifts. I don't also see either of the decks being even near "dominant" in the format. You are taking this "aggro is dominating the format" as a fact, which it isn't.

Also, i resolved quite some few gifts by now and what i can say is that yes, it helps a lot,it might even get me a win on a almost lost game but it´s not an automatic win condition, specially against aggro where it might be too late. The same thing applies to my opponent's gifts, i dont lose everytime my opponent plays and resolves a gifts ungiven.

If you are playing a real deck, gifts wins on the turn after it was played (and it is played opponents eot) and most of the time it wins the game on the turn you play it, even if it is your own main phase. Tutoring whole combo, and getting 2 pieces of it in your hand = GG.

[Mythrandir]

No, I don't see gobs or skies running gifts. I don't also see either of the decks being even near "dominant" in the format. You are taking this "aggro is dominating the format" as a fact, which it isn't.

Well, my only experience with meta is the HL league, but "aggro is dominating" can be seen on the top8 of the GP:

WW -> aggro
UG mid range? -> semi-aggro
ZOO -> aggro
RG beats -> aggro
suicidial black -> aggro
Oath -> NOT aggro
boros -> aggro
RDW -> aggro

but there are better ppl out there that have a wider view that me, like i said i dont play tournaments, nor GPs, just in the league. But of course, i maybe be wrong

If you are playing a real deck, gifts wins on the turn after it was played (and it is played opponents eot) and most of the time it wins the game on the turn you play it, even if it is your own main phase. Tutoring whole combo, and getting 2 pieces of it in your hand = GG.

Althoug i realize my deck isnt by far the best deck in the format i believe it to be a good (REAL!) deck, in fact one of the GP was won by a 5CC (even though the lists are quite different). So yes i´ve won after a resolved (mine) gifts and yes i´ve lost even after a resolved (mine) gifts. But i have also played against resolves gifts (not mine) and won.

And i dont know what decks you´re playing with and against, but the Gifts ungiven resolved = GG is far from true. Besides Nastaboi (great) early harvest deck i dont´find that argument 100% valid, and i haven't played against many decks that won immediately because of a gifts. I may lose to that gifts, because of card disavantage (LFTL + cycle lands + wasteland is a pain), but certainly not gifts = GG

[Nastaboi]

I is hard to believe that people who are in charge of things can see only top8 of one tournament and nothing else. Highlander is played in many placed besides (bi)annual GP, and there are successful decks in that very GP besides top8. Please, try to see the bigger picture.

And resolved Gifts IS GG.