5c control

[Loessli]

Ok, I am working on a 5CC as well; in fact, my decklist is quite similar to yours.
Here are the things, that "bother" me most about your version.


I really don't see how LftL helps in this deck - sure, it's a great card, but cycle lands generally make this deck too slow for the RDW matchup. I have tried to play with it, but every time I start dredging, i find myself flushing vital options down the toilet... But that's just me and i could be wrong^^

Secondly, you are playing too many non basic lands and too few basics. You should definitely be playing each basic land card once in this deck; here is why: Since Magus of the Moon came out, you have 3 really, really bad kills to your deck being Back to Basics, Magus of the Moon and Bloodmoon; what I like to do for this reason, is to fetch a couple of basics really early, to avoid this sort of screw.
Cut things like Urborg and Vesuva and add the Basics.
I would also suggest playing the 5 new fetchs; they can make this deck faster in a way you can't even imagine if you haven't tried them out - they are a really good mana fix, they get you those basic lands AND they improve your card quality (less lands = better draw). If you don't know how to add those new fetchs, go for the Cycle lands first (this is, if you will follow my oppinion on the LftL).

Thirdly, you are not stretching the "more creatures with positive effects instead of spells" - part. Now, let me go into this one in a slight more detailed manner: I see you are playing the Archmage, Pridemage and the Predator. Also, there is Figure of Destiny, Venser. I like the Pridemage idea - i haven't actually played it yet, but i will most certainly try it out now. Where i would differ from your choices are here:
Cut the Archmage - it sucks vs RDW (too expensive) and vs RG Beats (no creature spells) and these are definitely your toughest matchups imo. Instead, add Sower of Temptation; it works great vs Aggro and Burn, because they will have to waste a spell to get rid of him. If you can manage to keep him in for one turn, you can usually really deal some nice damage with him as well. Great play in this deck.
Cut the Predator and add Wall of Blossoms - I know, two different purposes, but the wall is really the better choice, especially vs ugly first turn drops such as lackeys and kird apes or even Wild Nacs...
Lose the Figure and add Rhox Warmonk. Don't even ask me, why. I can't believe, the Monk hasn't come up yet; he is one of the best 3 - drops in the game and he gives you what you need the most: Life and a good blocker as well as a resistance of 4, which is immune to most burn spells.
Next: Lose Jace and add Liliana. She is really a bad bitch - if you can put her on the table, in almost 85 to even 90% you are sure to win the game. Force him to play instants or just get rid of expensive spells he couldn't use the other turn and then get whatever you need with her second ability.
I also would suggest you cut the Flametounge Kavu and add Desolation Giant; yeah, i get the extra cost is a bit harsh, but he can really come in handy sometimes.
Lose the Doran and add another 5cc god creature - the Baneslayer Angel. Works. Every time i play it. Etched Oracle is nice, keep it.
Then... where the hell is the Academy Rector?? Moat, Restraint, Treachery, Deed - need i say more??
Solemn is also a must, especially if you take my advice on the basic land issue.
I'll probably remember another load of creatures i forgot to put here, right when i post this, but so far so good i suppose...

Proceeding... Let's take a look at the main build; spells etc.
Cut Crop Rotation (no need at all - you have 10 fetchs and loads of other land searching options) and add Diabolic Edict - helps vs anything from Superman to the Ascetic to that lame ass Oath Akroma/Spirit of the Night or even vs a tinkered Colossus.
Treachery - a MUST in this deck. Get it with the Rector or just have fun taking over that Boggart Ram Gang or whatever annoys you the most for FREEEEEEE
Why play Sudden Shock over Path to Exile? The alternative is cheaper and works every time.
Reduce your Mana Acceleration to 3 rather than 5: I would say Ingot, Relic and Mindstone are the best picks here.
Then: Demonfire... Not a good pick. The reason the older builds by Jan Ludwig used Star storm rather than Earthquake is so simple: In Control Mirros, the Manlands always win the game. Every goddamn time. Especially lame to play vs Mono Blue Control, that uses Urza's Factory... Ouch; if you don't have moat or restraint, you are royally f*cked.
With Star storm, just kill his little manlands or, if he doesn't have any, draw a card instead.
If you add the Rector, go for the Seal instead of the Krosan Grip.
I'm glad to see, that you agree with my secret choice to not play the Decree of Justice in this deck - it's sooo expensive and you hardly ever get more than two angels if even. Again, rather add a nice Lifelinker instead.
Too much Graveyard Hate. Yes, by too much, i mean 2 cards. Reduce to one and add Holistic Wisdom instead. Great card in this deck.

Hmm, ok, so far, that's all i can really think of... if I have some other ideas, I'll let you know.


Take care, Loessli

[Mythrandir]

Ok, thanks for the input, it's always nice to discuss different build/experiences, heres goes my comments on your comments
I wanted to leave the quote wrap, but my browser was possessed... keep going up and down on it's own on th scroll... well. here goes:

As for LFTL: basically LFTl is one of the greatest draw engines available. yeah you could lose 3 vital options when you dredge, but you can also dredge way 3 lands when your board has enough (and then just picked them up later with LFTL). LFTL has won me many games by returning dead manlands, by recurring wastelanded lands (maze, etc.)
Yeap, vs aggro it ain't that good, because it's too slow but vs mid-range /control decks this one probably wins you the game. And i'm still in a meta where these kind of decks/matches are plentiful.


Indeed the lack of basic lands has annoyed me a bit, but i really don't see where to cut (cycle lands are staying) the ones i could see cutting down would be urborg (i like this one mainly because i play tabernacle, maze, etc) krosan verge. As for vesuva, i love this card, it's mana, it's a legendary wasteland, it's a double maze (saved me plenty of times), it's a double factory or monastery. But i was going to try and switch the urbog + krosan for +2 new enemy fetches.
Concerning mana accell, 3 is too few IMO and by having this, things like magus/BTB ain't that afwul. Actually these 5 mana artifacts are quite a recent addition, and i'm liking the results.
By the way, how many lands/mana artifasct you're using. As you can see i´m using 38 lands + 5 and in MWS i'm still a lot of time mana screw in there... =/

Pridemage is actually a very powerful card! one of the best early drops, also it helps vs such problems like btb, moon, orb. you should definitely try it out.
As for sower, it's just too killable IMO, if it had flash it could be a bomb with nice tricks, this way, i probably see it dropping on turn 4 and eot dying, without any significant effect on the game/board.
Like you can see on my "history" with this deck, i played wall of blossoms for  plenty of time, and i like it, but one thing that i noticed, in this format, you're better off with "aggro" creatures early on. Let me explain, this is the reason i play FoD. It's such an early pressure, in the initial hands few counters can touch it, if it gets bounced back, it's cheap enough to cast it again. killable? yeah a lot, but it probably dealt some damage along the way. So cutting wall for trygon, not only does it lose the flying but i lose the aggro part of it. that's why i cut blossoms, and don't play those new control walls that wotc printed. But yes, wall of blossoms, even in late game, because of its cantrip ain't as bad.
Rhox is one cards that i would like to play, but instead of FoD?! NO, rhox is way harder to cast (the same reason i put aside stoic angel), doesn't have an immediate impact on the game. I think i have plenty of lifegainers on my deck, and actually aggro, at least here, isn't being played so much.
Desolation giant was left out because of the double R, like starstorm and other interesting spells, my deck can't really support double R that much, and 6 mana for a wog, seems a bit too much, the only reason i'd play it would be for it's searchability with eladarmi call, other than that FTK is just faster IMO.
Really don't understand, because you seem to have lots of trouble VS RDW and RG and you´re saying to UP my mana curve... 6 turn wog  is a bit too late vs those decks, IMO.

Baneslayer angel i really wanted to add it, but it's quite â,¬â,¬ expensive and i really don't know what to cut. Doran is easier to cast. turn 3 to turn 5 makes a huge difference, especially being black it isn't affected by shriekmaw and others. As for exalted, exalted once again is faster. But it's one of those that is definetely on my watch list.

Well, i playe jace, mainly because it's a 3rd drop draw/shield, unlike liliana, i think i'd play ajani vengaent, or elspeth before this one. I even thought of making a 5CC with "all" PW, ebcause they are that great. But most of them are just a bit over ideal mana curve, especially in turns where you need  to play more than 1 thing. But yes, if you can pull her off quite often, seh's very powerful indeed.

Academy was cut because, it really hand't that huge impact on the game, vs control there isn't much things i'd like to fetch, vs aggro, yes, but it's usually a bit slow, at least this was my experience with it, it got STPed, tormod crytped, etc too many times, and i would end up with, IMO, a dead card.
Solemn if i went with more basic lands, it would be a definitely YES.

Crop, i can see being cut. But this one is very different from fetches. it fetches you maze, tabernacle, etc. Also cropping a targeted wasteland is very amusing
Well, sudden shock is there because of tricks, it can kill a pridemage, waterfron bouncer, it passes through counterspells and it even kills a magus of the moon even if i haven't a single original R source in play. And PtE is bad, IMO. i'd never hit a turn 1 bop, or noble with a PtE, but i'd indeed kill them wih a sudden shock
Treachery is just too expensive, i tried, had a lot of fun with it, but it was a bit suboptimal, IMO.

Superman? you mean morphling? well, morphling, IMO, isn't a very competitive creature in this format, even in mono U builds. As for tinkered colossus? well, let's just say if i was in a tournament and a person played tinker, i'd win without any difficulty  (see here http://www.magicplayer.org/forum/index.php?topic=2.0) So diabolic edict isn't as good as a targeted removal here, IMO. Great card, but i think there are better ones, IMO to play in a 5CC.

well, i already talked about the mana artifacts, and i´m quite happy, although signets aren't the much efficient (but still trying to figure out which colors are better).


Demonfire is both removal and winning condition. My use for this is way different than a starstorm or earthquake. i use this as removal (literally, since it RFG, which is quite important) or as a winning condition, dealing those final points of damage sometimes is hard and this helps a lot. it also kills magus of the moon without any R (original) source in play. That's why i still play with some burn (demonfire, fire/ice, sudden,), for that and to deal those final damage points.

Krosan grip is so powerful, no matter what your opponent has ,it gets through: stifle, counterspell, misdirection, etc, etc. It kills sensei divining top, the extra mana totally makes for it. you should give it a try.

Too much grave hate? well, perhaps you play a in a different meta, indeed. As i see it, i really don't play with any grave hate i play a cheap cantrip artifact, i play a limited tutor for CMC 2 and i play instant mass removal or pumper for finks/glen/other creature. i don't have any dedicated spell for removal, so these don't worry me, although jund charm is a bit hard to cast sometimes. =/
Holistic wisdom was a great card which you could pull lots of tricks, but early on, it isn't good, too late in the game you might not have anything good to discard/return. it was one of those cards that was excellent in some cases but it was also very bad in other cases. and IMO, it's important to have a balanced deck.

Once again thanks for the input, feel free to post your decklist here so i can compare it better, and talk a bit about your meta. because i´m a bit confused, you talk about RDW and RG like they were some kinds of demons and then you make so many suggestion to UP my mana curve that i have a hard time figuring that out. In my meta, even vs control you're better off with a low mana curve, unless you play loads of mana accel (artifacts and non artifacts).

Cheers,
Mythrandir

[Nastaboi]

Cut the Archmage - it sucks vs RDW (too expensive) and vs RG Beats (no creature spells) and these are definitely your toughest matchups imo.

Archmage is The Best Creature in the highlander format. He who gets one down first wins in control mirror, no expections. Even against dreaded RDW he blocks twice (not like Sower who just eats one otherwise dead removal spell).

[Loessli]

Hey again, I'm sorry it took me so long to reply, I just had a lot to do lately lol.

First of all; i have taken some of your suggestions into consideration; i have added a slight bit of Mana acceleration and I have replaced the following few cards:

Holistic Wisdom: You are right about this one; in the early game, it really isn't much of a help and in later stages of the game, you usually just don't have enough stuff to discard.

Desolation Giant: I have had great times with this one, but your input about my mana curve (more on that one later, btw) made me think a bit so I replaced it with Stoic Angel, which I really can't see not being played in this deck, if I chose to play it's equivalent with red instead of green, Lightning Angel as well - I actually find Stoic Angel better suited to the control theme of the deck and very helpful vs RDW matchups (think about those Piledrivers, Siege - Gang Commanders and Chieftains on the other side of the battle field...).

Faith's Fetters: Usually liked to pull this one out with the Rector, when playing vs Aggro decks, as it is very, very annoying to them. However, I find Hide/Seek a better, cheaper, as well as a more versatile option, especially in Control Mirrors, where Seek can really give you quite a nice LP boost.

Seal of Cleansing: Another pick for the Rector... oh well, Quasali Pridemage is just cooler (and a creature, which is always a great thing in Aggro matchups).

Venser, Shaper Savant: Just don't like him, say what you will; I just really prefer plaing the Baneslayer Angel instead ^^...

Sower of Temptation: I realized, that I hadn't actually added Treachery lol! So, there goes the Sower... Bohoo

Vision Fetchs have been replaced by enemy fetchs (yes, I am now playing roughly 35 proxies lol).


So, now that you have seen, what I got rid of, let's look at my deck list, before I say anything more...:


5CC:

Lands: 39
Reflecting Pool
Forest
Swamp
Island
Mountain
Plains
Bayou
Underground Sea
Volcanic Island
Plateau
Savannah
Tropical Island
Taiga
Tundra
Badlands
Scrubland
Overgrown Tomb
Watery Grave
Steamvents
Temple Garden
Hallowed Fountain
Godless Shrine
G/B Fetch (Name Still unknown to me, sorry lol)
Polluted Delta
Scalding Tharn
Arid Mesa
Windswept Heath
Mystic Rainforest
Wooded Foothills
Flooded Strand
Bloodstained Mire
Marsh Flats
Krosan Verge
Kor Haven
Maze of Ith
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Wasteland
Mishras Factory
Mutavault

Mana Acceleration: 2
Mox Diamond
Darksteel Ingot

Hand Control: 3
Thoughtseize
Duress
Mind Twist

Card Draw/Tutors/Card Quality: 8
D - Top
Demonic Tutor
Intuition
Gifts Ungiven
Impulse
Worldly Counsel
Fact or Fiction
Tithe

Removal: 15
Putrefy
Mortify
Diabolic Edict
Path to Exile
Swords to Plowshares
Wrath of God
Damnation
Day of Judgement
Pernicious Deed
Oblivion Ring
Lightning Helix
Vindicate
Fire/Ice
Starstorm
Pyroclasm

Nice Enchantments: 4
Moat
Collective Restraint
Necromancy
Treachery

Counterspells: 8
Mana Drain
Mana Leak
Counterspell
Dissipate
Absorb
Dromar's Charm
Force of Will
Force Spike
Evasive Action

Creatures: 16
Twisted Abomination
Quasali Pridemage
Solemn Simulacrum
Wall of Blossoms
Baneslayer Angel
Exalted Angel
Lightning Angel
Loxodon Hierarch
Kitchen Finks
Rhox Warmonk
Dimir Houseguard
Doran, The Siege Tower
Eternal Dragon
Vendillion Clique
Academy Rector
Eternal Witness
Shadowmage Infiltrator

Planeswalkers: 1
Liliana Vess

Recursion: 1
Regrowth

Hate: 2
Hide/Seek
Tormod's Cypt


Arguably replaceable cards: Twisted Abomination (do i really need another one of the kind?), Mind Twist (good sometimes, but other times a wasted card slot).


As you can see, my deck is quite concerned with the matchups against RDW.
Tell me what you think and let's discuss about what the best possible card choices are.


Thanks in advance, Loessli

[Mythrandir]

Hey again.

Well, stoic angel was a bit underwhelminh.. when he usually hits the board its a bit too late, specially because it has no immediate impact and is highly susceptible to removal, so i cutted. But i'd prefer stoic over lightning angel.

I'd prefer venser over vendilion clique. venser + karakas is very powerful. Also it's niecer vs aggro, since you can bounce 1 creature and block another. But u play some disprution, so perhaps this goes better with that part.

Would'nt you prefer to play firespout over pyroclasm?

twisted abomination i don't like it. eternal is good because it can be recurred, and it's way better to spend necromancy on a dragon than that azombie.
I would switch tormod crypt to a phyrexian furnace... but this is very situational.

Everything else looks ok, i didn't look very good at manabase...
I think you have enough stuff vs RDW, perhaps faith fetter VS oblivion ring.

[so_not]

I'd prefer venser over vendilion clique. venser + karakas is very powerful.

Well actually Vendilion Clique is fighting with Archmage for the title of the best creature in this format. Venser should definately be played also. On the other hand I wouldn't play Karakas since non-basic lands tend to screw your mana base against hate and you have to compensate that with bad mana artifacts like Darksteel Ingot.

[Mythrandir]

I'd prefer venser over vendilion clique. venser + karakas is very powerful.

Well actually Vendilion Clique is fighting with Archmage for the title of the best creature in this format. Venser should definately be played also. On the other hand I wouldn't play Karakas since non-basic lands tend to screw your mana base against hate and you have to compensate that with bad mana artifacts like Darksteel Ingot.

well, for me this is highly discussable. Karakas + venser led, many times, my opponents concending. I think venser is more versatile, IMO. vendilion doesnt seem very powerful vs aggro, but i must confess, never tried it.

[Loessli]

You should really, really try it, especially if you are playing vs lots of control decks.
Vs aggro, you get 2 things: A dead enemy creature and a potentially dangerous card less.
I don't find Venser very useful in most matches; 4 mana is just too much for his effect imo. I like to play one more counter spell instead (e.g. Absorb, which normally would be a bit expensive, but, if it replaces Venser, is actually one step towards a lower mana curve as well as one more sure counterspell and some lifegain, a very important thing when dealing with RDW).

[Mythrandir]

Well, again, some minor changes, but that i consider important. I tried making spoilers tags, but it didn't work, sorry for the long post. Overall changes and comments at the bottom. Any critics and opinions are welcome as always.

First, sorry for the bump, but i had some big (not huge) changes in the deck and a fellow player wanted to see my list.


Lands (38):
Bayou
Reflecting Pool
2x Forest
Savannah
Tundra
Scrubland
Nantuko Monastery
Stirring wildwood
Tolaria west
Island
Tropical Island
Volrath's Stronghold
Wasteland
Plains
Taiga
Underground Sea
Volcanic Island
Hallowed Fountain
Temple Garden
Swamp
Maze of Ith
Krosan Verge
Verdant catacombs
Rishadan Port
Badlands
Plateau
Karakas
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Flooded Strand
Wooded Foothills
Bloodstained Mire
Polluted Delta
Windswept Heath
Mishra's Factory (1)
Lonely Sandbar
Vesuva
Secluded Steppe
Breeding Pool
Steam Vents
Flagstones of Trokair
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Misty rainforest

mana accel: (5)
darksteel ingot
coalition relic
3x signets[/color] (currently figuring out which)
3x Talismans (UB, WU, GW)

Spells: (37)
jund charm
Sensei's Divining Top
Regrowth
Dissipate
Mana leak
Swords to Plowshares
Fire/Ice
Dromar's Charm
Lightning Helix
Vindicate
Demonic Tutor
Impulse
Gifts Ungiven
Collective Restraint
Pernicious Deed
Tithe
Evasive Action
Fact or Fiction
Mystical Teachings
Worldly Counsel
Eladamri's Call
Damnation
Moat
Mana Drain
Krosan Grip
Pact of Negation
Phyrexian Furnace
Wrath of God
Counterspell
Sudden Shock
Intuition
Life from the Loam
Hide/Seek
Shred Memory
Brainstorm
Crop Rotation
Putrefy
Pithing needle
Necromancy
Mortify
Demonfire
Engineered Explosives

Creatures:/Planeswalkers (19):
Ajani vengeant
Trinket mage
Tarmogoyf
Loxodon Hierarch
Eternal Witness
Etched Oracle
Exalted Angel
Flametongue Kavu
Eternal Dragon
Venser, Shaper Savant
Trygon Predator
Garruk Wildspeaker
Doran, the Siege Tower
Shriekmaw
Figure of Destiny
Aven mindcensor
Jace Beleren
Jace mindsculptor
Glen Elendra Archmage
Quasali pridemage
kitchen finks

Cards that went away
Green: Added cards

Some comments:
Pithing needle IMO was necessary due to the amount of PW out there, so trinket mage was no-brainer, after that.
Collective restraint (and possibly even moat   in the near future) was switch for ajani, mainly because PW are so powerful and collective was getting wasted every time (pridemage, unicorns, etc, etc)
Stirring is still in testing mode, but i prefer it better to nantuko mainly becauee it produces colors
Aven mindcensor is very powerful and cheap and efficient (like most creature nowadays). Highly recommend it for those still not using it.

cut:
-temple garden
-nantuko monastery
-krosan verge
-3x signet
-collective restraint
-jace beleren
-flagstone of trokair
-urborg
-mortify
-putrefy
-figure of destiny
-dissipate

added:
+ jace mind sculptor (better than old jace, seriously, way better)
+ ajani the vengeant
+ trinket mage
+ pithing needle
+3x talisman (WU, BU, GW)
+ aven mindcensor
+ stirring wildwood (still testing phase)
+ verdant catacombs
+ misty rainforest
+ swamp
+ forest
+ mana leak

[malz77]

something to look at: http://blog.magicplayer.org/2010/06/13/hl-gp-7-place-3-4-patrick-richter-5c-goodstuff/

[Mythrandir]

something to look at: http://blog.magicplayer.org/2010/06/13/hl-gp-7-place-3-4-patrick-richter-5c-goodstuff/

ok, thks a lot.

i've been looking at the list and it seems the only similarity is the use of the 5c. He plays a lot more (more than 2x my current list creatures and his design is a lot more agressive (stoneforge/SoFI is something i don't feel quite right in a control deck, IMHO).

However one cannot deny that creatures right now are so powerful and efficient and that a low creature deck (even control) might be suboptimal. Despite that, i still would like for 5CC to be viable and a different deck from 5c good stuuf or 5c creatures.

This past league i wasn't able ot finish all my games, so my current list (post-RoE) is still open to some (minor) changes. Let's see how it fairs on my next games.

Thks for the info.

P.s. to self: Must start going more often to the blog.

[Kristian]

I've considered playing Shred Memory in my own 5cc, though I favor Suffer the Past more due to the life gain. However, Suffer the Past lacks transmute. How often do transmute Shred Memory?

[GoblinPiledriver]

I think you often transmute Shred Memory, since you don't play often against any kind of Reanimation  or Recursion Deck.
So the best usage for Shred Memory is in a deck with Oath of Druids and Life from the Loam. So you simply wait till the right in play and mana situation or you see there is spontanius application for Shred Meomory itself.
The same is true for Muddle the Mixture and there you need 2 blue mana which you more often have than 2 black, and you need more often to counter a sorcery or instant than there is need to remove a genesis or a card targeted by eternal witness.

[Kristian]

I think you often transmute Shred Memory, since you don't play often against any kind of Reanimation  or Recursion Deck.
So the best usage for Shred Memory is in a deck with Oath of Druids and Life from the Loam. So you simply wait till the right in play and mana situation or you see there is spontanius application for Shred Meomory itself.
The same is true for Muddle the Mixture and there you need 2 blue mana which you more often have than 2 black, and you need more often to counter a sorcery or instant than there is need to remove a genesis or a card targeted by eternal witness.

While that is true, I play in a meta with alot of (and I do mean alot) recurrence. That also means that Shred Memory could be effective and perhaps even both of them could be played.

[Mythrandir]

I've considered playing Shred Memory in my own 5cc, though I favor Suffer the Past more due to the life gain. However, Suffer the Past lacks transmute. How often do transmute Shred Memory?

Quite often: it's really versatile, although it's double black: it can fetch counterspells (counterspell, mana drain, mana leak..), creature removal (fire/ice, helix), disenchant effects: (hide/seek, pridemage). so i'ts quite good.

@goblinpiledriver. there are quite few decks that use reanimations and recurrence. And if i cut shred memory, it would be for another grave removal, since i only play shred and furnace.

So i think it's a matter of personal choice (and meta) shred vs suffer the past. I like it and for the meanwhile i'm sticking with a furnace + a instant grave removal (because of mystical teachings and of course strategy)