5c control

[Mythrandir]

this is currentlu my deck. i´ve already looked at some decks at magicplayer.org, and took some ideas..

Creatures
  1 Loxodon Hierarch
  1 Shadowmage Infiltrator
  1 Eternal Witness
  1 Etched Oracle
  1 Solemn Simulacrum
  1 Exalted Angel
  1 Flametongue Kavu
  1 Eternal Dragon
  1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
  1 Venser, Shaper Savant
  1 Trygon Predator
  1 Academy Rector
  1 Mystic Snake

Spells
  1 Sensei's Divining Top
  1 Regrowth
  1 Dissipate
  1 Mortify
  1 Chainer's Edict
  1 Swords to Plowshares
  1 Fire/Ice
  1 Dromar's Charm
  1 Lightning Helix
  1 Brainstorm
  1 Vindicate
  1 Demonic Tutor
  1 All Suns' Dawn
  1 Dismiss
  1 Impulse
  1 Decree of Justice
  1 Lim-Dul's Vault
  1 Gifts Ungiven
  1 Concentrate
  1 Allied Strategies
  1 Collective Restraint
  1 Pernicious Deed
  1 Darksteel Ingot
  1 Tithe
  1 Evasive Action
  1 Starstorm
  1 Voidslime
  1 Gilded Lotus
  1 Fact or Fiction
  1 Debtors' Knell
  1 Mystical Teachings
  1 Future Sight
  1 Undermine
  1 Absorb
  1 Worldly Counsel
  1 Enlightened Tutor
  1 Eladamri's Call
  1 Damnation
  1 Moat
  1 Sylvan Scrying
  1 Mana Drain
  1 Krosan Grip
  1 Pact of Negation
  1 Personal Tutor
  1 Phyrexian Furnace
  1 Holistic Wisdom
  1 Wrath of God
  1 Counterspell

Lands
  1 Bayou
  1 Reflecting Pool
  1 Forest
  1 Mountain
  1 Savannah
  1 Tundra
  1 Scrubland
  1 Coastal Tower
  1 Nantuko Monastery
  1 Kor Haven
  1 Island
  1 Tropical Island
  1 Volrath's Stronghold
  1 Wasteland
  1 Swamp
  1 Plains
  1 Taiga
  1 Underground Sea
  1 Volcanic Island
  1 Hallowed Fountain
  1 Temple Garden
  1 Watery Grave
  1 Maze of Ith
  1 Krosan Verge
  1 Rishadan Port
  1 Badlands
  1 Plateau
  1 Karakas
  1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
  1 Flooded Strand
  1 Wooded Foothills
  1 Mountain Valley
  1 Rocky Tar Pit
  1 Bloodstained Mire
  1 Grasslands
  1 Bad River
  1 Polluted Delta
  1 Flood Plain
  1 Windswept Heath

comments and suggestions are welcomed
some points to consider:
debtor knell VS trechery
intuition VS all sun dawns
chainer edict VS diabolict edict
few winnning conditions -> i some times feel i lack some wining conditions (palynchron?)

p.s how do i put his on mws file?

thks

// Edit by Admin: I have converted it to MWS format and attached it to your post.

[Sturmgott]

First of all: Your deck looks good already, but maybe a bit "old-fashioned". Where is Life from the Loam? This card is simply too good not to be played in control decks that have access to green mana.

And with Life, Intuition vs. All Sun's Dawn is no longer a question. The downside of this is of course that your deck will likely mutate to a LftL.deck once you have access to its power. And that is also the downside of LftL being permitted at all in the format.

If you want to play it in this classic style, I personally think that Venser is not good enough. Replace it by the ever-notorious Withered Wretch which is invaluably strong in the current format.

Also, Undermine is not a very good counter in this deck. Its bonus ability just is not very valuable in a control deck. I'd suggest you play Hinder instead which is a) easier to cast and b) generates a more useful side-effect in alot of matchups.

Next, where is Isochron Scepter? You have 13 imprintable spells in your deck (sure not all make sense on the Scepter).

Although we slowed the environment alot with our last banning decisions, he format is still fast enough to suggest you play more cheap spells like Mana Leak >> Dismiss. Also Concentrate and Allied Strategies should be replaced. In my opionion you don't have enough early answers to creatures; I'd suggest adding Lighning Bolt and Sudden Shock here.

just my 2 cents for today

[Mythrandir]

ok, i dont know a lot about the current metagame, so its kind of hard to change my deck according to it, however some of your points are correct, sometimes i lack early answers.

i´ll test the lftl, i´ve already thought about it. venser is both a counter or a bouncer, plus if u have karakas in play its a nice combo. withered wrethc i´ve played it, but it was usually killed (like i said before, i dont know the metagame, so withered depends on this...)

i´m a bit unlucky with the scepter.. early versions of this deck, runned it, however it was usually countered/disechanted.. or i would end up with a scepter in my hand and no 2 mana instants =/

for teh concentrate/allied strategies i think you´re right.. especially allied strategies, its only good mid/late game, but it's always fun drawing 5 , but i think i'll change it to a sudden shock

another question is tolaria west VS sylvan scrying? sylvan is only 2 mana, but the tolaria can be a land if i´m mana screw and it can also fetch pact of negation.

well. i´m going to make some changes considering the things you´ve said, and then i´ll see..

[MarkusMagic]

I play a 5C Control deck myself and hope I can help you a bit.
First of all I like your decklist and think it is pretty good, but according to Frank I think some important cards are missing. Especially Life from the Loam is such a powerful card that I think it is a "must play".

Below I'll post my decklist and try to give some reasons for the cardchoices:

Lands:     Underground Sea     Volcanic Island     Tundra     Tropical Island     Plateau     Scrubland     Savannah     Taiga     Bayou     Badlands     Windsweapt Heath     Polluted Delta     Flooded Strand     Wooded Foothills     Bloodstaind Mire     Watery Grave     Hallowed Fountain     Breeding Pool     Stean Vents     Godless Shrine     Karakas     Flagstones of Trokair     Tolaria West     Rishadan Port     Wasteland     Volrath's Stronghold     Academy Ruins     Maze of Ith     Kor Haven     Mishra's Factory     Fairy Conclave     Nantuko Monestary     Secluded Steppe     Lonely Sandbar     Plains     Island     Snow-Convered Island

Creatures:     Loxodon Hierarch     Shadowmage Infiltrator     Trygon Predator     Lightning Angel     Etched Oracle     Wall of Blossoms     Eternal Witness     Flametongue Kavu     Eternal Dragon     Academy Rector     Exalted Angel     Tinket Mage     Meloku the Clouded Mirror     Spells:     Demonfire     Rolling Earthquake     Life from the Loam     Crop Rotation     Vindicate     Fire // Ice     Hide // Seek     Lightning Helix     Pernicious Deed     Absorb     Darkblast     Diabolic Edict     Damnation     Demonic Tutor     Tainted Pact

Brainstorm     Intuition     Deep Analysis     Mana Leak     Evasive Action     Worldly Counsel     Stroke of Genius     Force of Will     Decree of Silence     Muddle the Mixture     Counterbalance     Remand     Repulse     Impuls     Mana Servance     Fact or Fiction        Mana Drain                       Gifts Ungiven     Counterspell     Enlighted Tutor     Tithe     Swords to Plowshares     Seal of Cleansing     Decree of Justice     Moat     Wrath of God     Gilded Lotus     Goblin Charbelcher     Zuran Orb     Scroll Rack     Isochron Scepter     Mox Diamond     Senseis Divining Top     Phyrexian Furnace     Engineered Explosives

Ok this is the complete list. There are some cards in the deck for testing . I hope some of you can give me some advice or feedback on me list (and I know there are 102 cards in the deck J I could not decide which one to cut). I’d like to some reasons for my cardchoices and try to point out some critical cards.

Lands:

• I think two cycle lands are enough but I consider playing Horizon Canopy to support Life from the Loam.
• I’m just testing Academy Ruis and so far I like it a lot in Control vs. Cntrol matchups. But I did not play against aggro decks enough to say whether the fact that it produces colorless mana is a problm or not.
• Furthermore I’m thinking about adding Treetop Village, but I don’t like the fact that it comes into play tapped and producing green mana.
• Tolaria West is also in the “testing phase”. I try to find out whether it is good enough to search cards like Maze, Engineered Explosives, Zuran Orb and Volrath's Stronghold or not. I would appreciate if someone could post his results of testig here.

In your list Mythrandir I don’t really like the Mirage "Fetchlands" and Costal Tower because sometimes they are too slow. And I played Tabernacle for a long time and then decided to cut it, but I’m not sure about it. With Crop Rotation, Life from the Loam, Gifs and Intuiton it may be goog enough to get into the deck. Maybe you can tell me something about your results of testing it in different matchups.

Creatures:

• In my opinion Trinket Mage is a very powerful creature. It can fetch graveyardremoval, lifegain, Sensei's Diving Top or Explosives. You can also think about playing Pithing Needle against Survival, Penoptic MIrror or Seat of the Synod to fix your mana. But I don't think these two options are good enough
• Against aggro decks I like Wall of Blossoms but I think it’s more personal preferences.
• I don’t really like Solemn, but maybe it is good. It also supports the Academy Ruins quiet well so i should consider adding it again.
  

Also I think there are not enough creatures in the deck to make Teferi really powerful. My experience is that he cost too much and it’s not really worth protecing it when he hits the board. But again I’d like to hear your results on testing.
Last but not least I think Mystic Snake is not quiet good. For a creature it is too expensive and does not bring that much advantage against aggro decks and for a counter it’s too expenive. But I've also heard other opinons and think it depends on personal preferences.

Spells:
Here I'd like to discuss the differences and some cards I’m not sure about.

• Counterbalance is one those cards that I’m not sure about. Sometimes it performs quiet well and sometimes it sucks. I think it is just playable with a lot of “support cards” like Scroll Rack, Brainstorm, Top and Muddle the Mixture. I would be happy about other opinions and some help here. Thanks
• Card draw is another problem I think. I discussed it Frank via ICQ and I drew the conclusion to play Stroke of Genius, Fact or Fiction and Deep Analysis. I also considered playing Careful Consideration. What do you thins is best?
• The combo (Mana Servance and Goblin Charbelcher) got into the deck after I read the results of the tournament in Düsseldorf where a 5CC deck finished first playing these cards. I like the cards so far, but I’ll go on testing against aggro. Also Academy Ruins got into the deck because I’d like to support the combo a bit.
• Darkblast also got into the deck after Frank and I discussed it via ICQ. He thinks it’s very powerul against RDW and UG-Aggrocontrol versions. I tested against RG Beatz and  now I'm convinced that Darkblast ist really good.
• Zuran Orb is another card I’m testing. It’s not that powerful anymore after Balance has been banned. But the possibility to fetch it with Trinked Mage and Tolaria West seems good enough.

If there are other cards I forgot just ask me and I’ll try to give reasons for playing it.

I also agree with Frank that cards like Concentrate and Allied Strategies are not good enough to be in the deck. But I’m going to test All Suns Dawn. I also support Franks opinion that you better play some “cheap” counters like Mana Leak and Evasive Action in stead of  Dismiss and Undermine. Also Force of Will is missing in your deck.
I think Holistic Wisdom seems very powerful. But my experience showed that it’s not. Sometimes it’s just too slow or too hard to cast. The same thing is true for Debtors' Knell as well I think. Even though it can be really good with Academy Rector.
In times of massive Land Destruciton in decks like Stax or even in White Weenie decks Collective Restraint is a card I don’t like that much any more. I played it just some time ago and Frank conviced me to cut it.

Ok that was loooong post. I hope someone read it.
I look forward to your replies and hope for a good discussion about this decktype.

Thanks Markus

[Mythrandir]

first of all, thanks for the post and opnions, i´ll try to cover all the points u mentioned :)well, lets start

1) the coastal tower in my deck is a mistake... i must have loaded an old MWS file and forgot to replace that

2)solemn in your case is not that good, because you only play 3 basic lands, so perhaps there are better things

3) treetop i tested and its not that good and neither is faerie.. every time i turn these lands they are killed =/ the only one i seem to keep alive ist monastery.

4) tolaria west im testing it VS sylvan scrying. i think its important to have a tutor for lands, because of maze, tabernacle, volrath, monastery, etc... i think the tolaria might be better especially if you play zuran, explosives, pact of negation

5) FoW i´ve tested and i either i was very unlucky or my dck was good for it.. i changed it to pact of negation and the pact is way better, at least for me

6)trinket is good if u have things to fetch, and i really dont have that many 1 artefacts. but wall of blossom is great, but i dont really know how to fit that one in my deck...

7) the mirage fetchs are great in my opinin, they avoid a lot of color screw problems and they bring a lot of card advantage in midgames, avoiding too many land draw.

tabernacle is very good especially in WW decks or similar.. u really should keep it in, especially if, like me, u play urborg tomb..
intuition, LFTL, gifts.. tolaria west make it easy to put it into play. By the way i´ve already put LFTL and its great..

9) teferi is great.. the flash ability and the "denial" effect for the oponent is great, and also with the mystical teachings (which is a powerfu instant tutor) i thinkteferi is quite good. also legendary creatres are great in these decks because of karakas, which protects them. i also play venser because of karakas.

10) mystic snake i´ve never had that many problemas casting it.. and it gives a blocker, i might be willing to trade it for another counter, but i had good experiences with it.

11)i really dont like counterbalance... it think is a very random based effect, unless u have a top in play. i dont like the scroll rack, i´ve played.. and sometimes it really doesnt do anything.. =/

12) draw.. i prefer concentrate VS deep analysis. deep, that 3 life flashback against aggro is really bad =/

13) u should also have starstorm (perhaps instead of rolling earthquake).. its mass removal at instant speed, and its has cycling, which is good in case of control deck.

14) severance and charbelcher seems a good combo, but i dont like it personally because i think it goes agaistn the philosophy of my deck

15) darkblast seems quite strong against aggro decks. i might consider putting it in, instead of mortify.

16) u should play krosan grip, the split second ability is a killer

17) collective is great agaisnt aggro decks. its like a second moat, the chances of getting one of theses is better than only having one

18) debtor knell is one of my winning conditions, but sometimes its just a dead card in my hand, í´m thinking of replacing it by treachery or take possession. holistic wisdom is very good and it not that hard to cast, the fact that u can play the ability at instant speed is very, very good.

well, i think i´ve covered all the points.. now i´ll talk abou your deck a little more.

Lands:
nothing to say here... do u have color screw problems?

creatures:
almost identical to mine... except the lightning angel (never tested it). meloku seems good.
i´m thinking of testing aeon the chronicler, what do you think?

spells:
i´ve talked about starstorm VS roling, u should try it.. the instant factor is great. tainted pact is very good card, i´m also thinking of replacing it, instead of lim dul vault.

........................i´ve got to go now........ but i´ll finished this later.......... sorry...

but i´ll gladly keep discussing cards and options for 5C control

[MarkusMagic]

Hi
Here are some new points on your thoughts:

• I also thought about Aeon Cronicler. He can make the Control vs Control matchups much better but seems to be a dead card against aggro decks. Maybe I'll try it instead of L. Angel.
• I don't think Starstorm is better than R. Earthquake. The only card that comes into my mind which starstorm could be better against is Decree of Justice. But in Control vs. Control you'll cycle Starstorm and don't keep it because you fear the decre I think.
• Maybe I should cut Faery Conclave but I like the Manlands a lot because if you take the boardcontrol you want to have fast damage. There's not always a good creature in your hand to kill the opponent, so the lands do a very good job.
• 3 basic lands are enough with solemn. I just wanted to say that L. Angel for example is a much better Turn 4 drop than Solemn. Even Aeon Cronicler is better than Solemn I think.
• I don't agree with your opinion on Force of Will. It's just always a really powerful card. Pact is worse than Force because it's impossible to cast Pact in the early game and in later turns you can also hardcast FoW.
• Yeah the Mage is powerful with some artifact. I think if you play Tolaria west you should test Zuran Orb/Ivory Tower/E. Explosives and Phyrexian Furnace or at least some of them. I'm sure you'll like that guy.
• f you play Gifts and Intuition I can't understand why you like Concentrate more than Deep Analysis. It's just a cards you can search with gifts beside Life and some lands. I like it a lot. And even the 3 lives for Flashback are not that bad against aggro. The risk of not flashbacking it is worth drawing only two instead of 3 cards.
• And last but not least Collective Restaint is really good against RG. But against WW sometimes it just sucks against Armageddon, Ravages of War or Cataclysm. Furthermore it's not that good against other creature based control decks because in the late game your opponent can afford it paying 5 to attack with Hierarch for example.

Thanks
Markus

[Mythrandir]

hey,

i´ve run deep analysis on earlier versions of my deck and it just didnt seem that good. there were lots of times when i couldn flashback.. and deep isnt that good with intuition, there are far better cards to search, that that

FoW i know its very powerful, but i actually prefer pact, i had better results with it, but i know it jus my preference.

i´m also thinking of replacing solemn, the only advantage VS l. angel is the cost.. solemn is colorless and can fetch me a land.. perhaps i´ll replace it with wall of blossoms

collective restraint is by far worse than moat, but i like to have those 2 to increase the odds of getting 1 th a game.

by the way, u should put eladmri call, its a very powerful tutor, and also mystical teachings which is quite good fetched via intuition or gifts.

i´ll change my deck a little bit, and then have a little go at MWS games.

if you play MWS, i would gladly play against you

[Lotus]

Is it useful to play the Decree of Silence just for the Acedemy Rector? ...i mean if you draw the decree its the 6cc cantrip counter or you will need to hardcast it for 8 mana  ..is that realy useful?

[Vazdru]

Is it useful to play the Decree of Silence just for the Acedemy Rector? ...i mean if you draw the decree its the 6cc cantrip counter or you will need to hardcast it for 8 mana  ..is that realy useful?

In my opinion you should have at least some (~2 or 3) good aims for Academy Rector and Decree of Silence is of course a very good one. But there are alternatives as well, e. g. Debtor's Knell, Mirari's Wake, Future Sight, Treachery, or even Privileged Position - i would play maximum two of them (cc5+), it depends which fits best.

In a 5C Control i would play following Enchantments:

Moat
Pernicious Deed
Animate Dead and/or Necromancy
Treachery

maybe Holistic Wisdom, Decree of Silence, Solitary Confinement, Counterbalance, Sterling Grove

[Mythrandir]

Is it useful to play the Decree of Silence just for the Acedemy Rector? ...i mean if you draw the decree its the 6cc cantrip counter or you will need to hardcast it for 8 mana  ..is that realy useful?

In my opinion you should have at least some (~2 or 3) good aims for Academy Rector and Decree of Silence is of course a very good one. But there are alternatives as well, e. g. Debtor's Knell, Mirari's Wake, Future Sight, Treachery, or even Privileged Position - i would play maximum two of them (cc5+), it depends which fits best.

In a 5C Control i would play following Enchantments:

Moat
Pernicious Deed
Animate Dead and/or Necromancy
Treachery

maybe Holistic Wisdom, Decree of Silence, Solitary Confinement, Counterbalance, Sterling Grove

i already play debtor and future sight.. privilegd position i just dont think is that good. it doesn actually win me a game =/

as for Decree of silence, i´ve been considering it a long time, but i was avoiding it for it CMC, but once it hits the board, its quite powerful, i´ll have to test it out. i´m currently modifying my deck, so i´ll see if i can fit into the list.

as for counterbalance i think it has very random effect to be included
sterling grove i dont have that many enchantments to include it in, i already have enlightned tutor to search for enchantaments.

as for necromancy i havent tested it, but tha ability to cast it instant and target any graveyard makes it probably a good card...

[Lotus]

What about the folloeing cards? :

1. Putrefy and Mortify (both excellent target removel)
2. Regrowth (good alrounder, also good with intuition and gifts)
3. Hinder, Forbid, Dissipate and Droma's Charm (in my opinion all better then absorb)
4. Abeyence (Good cantrip, very very good with sceptar)
5. Disentchant (better then seal, its instant and you can imprint it)
6. Lightning bolt (very good direct damage)
7. Stifle (also an alrounder, that it helpfull against nearly ervery deck

...aren't they worth playing?

[Mythrandir]

What about the folloeing cards? :

1. Putrefy and Mortify (both excellent target removel)
2. Regrowth (good alrounder, also good with intuition and gifts)
3. Hinder, Forbid, Dissipate and Droma's Charm (in my opinion all better then absorb)
4. Abeyence (Good cantrip, very very good with sceptar)
5. Disentchant (better then seal, its instant and you can imprint it)
6. Lightning bolt (very good direct damage)
7. Stifle (also an alrounder, that it helpfull against nearly ervery deck

...aren't they worth playing?

- my decklist has mortify, regrowth, dissipate, dromar charm and absorb.
- i prefer krosan grip over disenchant.. the split second is awesome.
- there are better direct damage than lightning bolt.. i prefer sudden shock or even incinerate.
- on early verison of my deck i played stifle.. and it was a killer against decrees, storms, deeds, and that kind of stuff.. but against aggro decks it wasnt that good..
- abeyance i never tested it..

[Lotus]

I think you should test Abeyence its realy good with the sceptar.

There is one more card i forgot: Repeal. I think its a good card with cantrip, it is able to save your own permanents and to protect you against a pumpt up weene creatures at the start of the game..

[MarkusMagic]

• Maybe you are right with Abeyance. I made some changes in my deck yesterday. I added Electrolyze, Mind Stone and Mystical Teachings for Counterbalance, Scroll Rack an Demonfire.
• I cutted Kor Haven cause it's just ot good enough against aggro. I prefer a colored land instead.
• Furthermore I think Necromany is a good idea. I'll test it and then give some more feedback.
• Lightningbolt maybe better than Electrolyse cause it works with scepter. But the cardsdraw is really good.
• I don't like Putrify and Mortify that much. I can't really tell why but I think tehy are not necessary in the deck.

Thanks
Markus

[Mythrandir]

• Lightningbolt maybe better than Electrolyse cause it works with scepter. But the cardsdraw is really good.

Thanks
Markus

so why not use incinerate? or sudden shock? lightning bolt is not that good in a control deck, there are far better options even if you want to imprint it. i havent try electrolyze cause i think its weak =/

by the way, if you like abeyance, why not put that plus orim chant... for the scepter, its not my favourite move.. but its quite good at locking the other guy