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Author Topic: Banlist changes - Oct. 1st    (Read 23532 times)
stsung
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« Reply #15 on: 13-09-2016, 02:20:49 PM »

BAN ? Y/N
Demonic Tutor N. I would still keep this as iconic card. I would leave it be because this is one of the ways some interesting and not so good decks can still competete against decks that are actually well tuned.
Fastbond N. I know what this card does in Vintage but I have never seen a player to abuse it in this way in Highlander. Unless this starts to get common I would keep the card unbanned
Mana Drain N. Even though I want to vote No, this card actually can be a really huge swing for the Mana Drain player. I've won so many games just because of the additional mana that I can actually agree with anyone who says that the card should be banned. In our community the card was well accepted so for that reason I still want to keep it unbanned.
Mishra's Workshop N. This card in my opinion is very fringe. It would most probably be played by staxx or artifact base combo. T1 Trinisphere if these two cards can show up together might be a problem but how often will this happen? Often Workshop comes into play when there is already many other sources of mana. If it hits the table turn 1 it may and it may not win the game.
Mystical Tutor N. I would vote no, since the card alone does not kill. If this card searches for the same card always, the tutored card might be reviewed instead. In general I don't mind seeing this card go though.
Oath of Druids N/Y. I'm not sure about this one. I never died to Oath even when this deck was around. But that was mostly because I could deal with it often. Being in different position I would most probably complain.
Tainted Pact Y. This card is instant demonic tutor in a sense and I always frowned when I saw the card being played because it meant instant death. It doesn't matter if it was me casting it or my opponent.
Timetwister N. unless combo becomes prevalent, I wouldn't ban the card.
Tolarian Academy N. unless combo becomes prevalent, I wouldn't ban the card. This card requires the player to play many artifacts and thus won't see play much anyway.
Yawgmoth's Will N. unless combo becomes prevalent, I wouldn't ban the card.

Unban Y/N
Gifts Ungiven N. I think unbanning this is rather dangerous but I may be wrong. I don't have enough experience with that but I have enough experience with Loam and Intuition. If this card gets unbanned I would find a way how to abuse it and I think many people would do the same.
Stoneforge Mystic N. Honestly, banning of this card made me leave the Highlander community. Since then I moved to play Vintage instead where I wasn't really limited by banlist that would change once in a while. After a very long time though of facing Stoneforge Mystics in other formats I finally understood the reasoning behind banning this card and I think of it when I kill someone with Sword of Fire and Ice or Batterskull that comes into play early. On the other hand there are more ways how to deal with Batterskull now. The question is, would people running white play SFM package? I would say yes. I still miss my little Kor... So in the end I would keep the card banned so it wouldn't need to be rebanned.

Someone mentioned Natural Order. I'm happily killing people with it on Magic Online now and I can see that this card feels like being from another world. It just wins the games too often. Even if the meta is Ux now...I would keep it banned.
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Remi
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« Reply #16 on: 20-09-2016, 01:40:10 PM »

BAN ? Y/N
Demonic Tutor - N- Combo is not dominating...Banning combo cards leads to narrow meta.
Fastbond - N- Combo is not dominating, banning combo cards leads to narrow meta.
Mana Drain - N - Blue decks haven't been dominating...this would weaken control and combo too much.
Mishra's Workshop - N- Combo is not dominating so remain on watchlist. Also, banning this would lead to more narrow meta.
Mystical Tutor - N - Another card that would weaken control and combo if banned.
Oath of Druids - N - You need to build your whole deck around this card...Also, combo hasnt been dominating.
Tainted Pact - N - This is a hard one...it's instant-speed demonic tutor. Probably does best in 4c/jund decks. I still dont think it's too big of a problem.
Timetwister - N- Combo is not dominating...Banning combo cards leads to narrow meta.
Tolarian Academy - N- Combo is not dominating...Banning combo cards leads to narrow meta.
Yawgmoth's Will - N- Combo is not dominating...Banning combo cards leads to narrow meta.

Unban Y/N
Gifts Ungiven     -N- It is like super-Intuition and when loam is unbanned, this should stay banned
Stoneforge Mystic -N- This card just is too strong with cards like batterskull or or sword of fire and ice in deck. It was banned for a good reason.


How I see it is that there are a group of people who would like everybody to play only creature-based goodstuff decks (4c being the most succesful one) and want to ban all decent combo and control cards. That leads to narrow meta, which is boring and not good for the format. Is it a catastrophe if combo or control wins a tournament or two? 4c blood has/had been dominating and winning tournaments for who knows how long, and it didnt get any of its cards banned...why is that?

Diverse meta is good for the format
« Last Edit: 27-09-2016, 12:18:28 PM by Remi » Logged
Goblin-Diplomaten
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« Reply #17 on: 26-09-2016, 03:26:48 PM »

Quote
4c blood has/had been dominating and winning tournaments for who knows how long, and it didnt get any of its cards banned...why is that

Let's say 4c is still dominating the format, which card would you ban to weaken a deck that plays only the best cards out of four colors? Wink
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Alucard
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« Reply #18 on: 27-09-2016, 03:31:31 AM »

BAN ? Y/N

Demonic Tutor     -N- I don't see how this would be a bigger problem now compared how is was before.
Fastbond          -N- This is often a useless card and needs real good starting hand with it. Yes, it's a 3-card combo too. Really bad topdeck draw.
Mana Drain        -N- I dont really currently see much reason to weaken control and combo decks.
Mishra's Workshop -N- It's a strong card, but only in specificly built deck.
Mystical Tutor    -N- This is probably at its finest with miracle cards like terminus...but again, there's no reason to ban these cards and leave control with no weapons...top already got banned.
Oath of Druids    -Y- This is a 1 card combo and a bit stupid in my opinion. Of course you need some deckbuilding around this, but still.
Tainted Pact      -N- This is better than demonic tutor if you're one specific card away from winning, but otherwise requires skill to use and exiling cards from your library can really backfire later in game.
Timetwister       -N- There's no reason to ban combo cards. Combo is far from dominating the format.
Tolarian Academy  -N- Artifact combo is not strong enough for this to get banned.
Yawgmoth's Will   -N- This card is only relevant for combo decks, as long as not all tournaments are dominated by combo decks there is no need to ban the card.


Unban Y/N

Gifts Ungiven     -Y- I might not have enough experience with this card, but I think it could be unbanned and maybe create some new stylish decks.
Stoneforge Mystic -N- This is too strong card that would be autoinclude in almost every deck that plays white.
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Goblin-Diplomaten
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« Reply #19 on: 27-09-2016, 10:25:26 AM »

Quote
Mana Drain -N- I dont really currently see much reason to weaken control and combo decks.

Quote
Stoneforge Mystic -N- This is too strong card that would be autoinclude in almost every deck that plays white.

I see Mana Drain as an autoinclude in almost every deck that plays blue. The ban of Mana Drain would remove a powerful card out of the format and would weaken blue decks in general not only control and combo.
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Vazdru
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« Reply #20 on: 29-09-2016, 07:40:00 PM »

Thanks for your feedback.
I wonder noone named Demonic Tutor for banning, same is true for Mystical Tutor - imo the two best tutor-spells available in our format.

The meta seems diverse, there are lots of archetypes actually which have the chance to take a top spot in the field. Nevertheless the powerlevel obviously rising steadily with each set being printed. My approach to start some kind of counter movement would be to remove the best tutors. That's why I voted to ban Demonic & Mystical Tutor like Tainted Pact as well. On the other hand i maybe have to reconsider this approach as the powercreep do not vanish by removing those tutors, it just become more random if you get/face it during the game or not, which do not improve the game experience much in this aspect necessarily. Furthermore the community seems fine with those tutors ...maybe because they make potentially a contribution to diversifacte the meta.

Anyhow the banned-list seems not too bad actually measured by the feedback I've received in the last days. Personally I would give Stoneforge Mystic a chance again, I guess its impact isn't that immense anymore which lead to its ban some time ago but it is not a heartfelt wish.
« Last Edit: 29-09-2016, 09:38:12 PM by Vazdru » Logged

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Remi
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« Reply #21 on: 29-09-2016, 10:49:09 PM »

Nevertheless the powerlevel obviously rising steadily with each set being printed.

This is indeed true, but the decks that get the most out of it are 4cblood and other goodstuff piles. Very few of the new cards can be used in combo decks for example.
I did a quick look in the last five 4cblood decks (a deck that uses best cards available) posted im Mtgpulse. These following cards in those decks were printed just during the last two years:

Anafenza, the Foremost
Den Protector
Dromoka's Command
Eldricth Evolution
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Hissing Quagmire
Kolaghan's Command
Liliana, the Last Hope
Nissa, voice of Zendikar
Painful Truths
Siege Rhino
Sylvan Advocate
Shambling vent
Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Tireless Tracker
(17 cards total)


Then I did a look in some Artifact-combo and Eggs lists. These are the following cards used in those decks combined that were printed in the past two years:

Dig Trough time
Ghirapur Æther Grid
Trail of Evidence
(3 cards total)


And when we look at the watch list, it mostly contains just combo cards. Do you see where im getting with this post?
« Last Edit: 29-09-2016, 10:52:26 PM by Remi » Logged
derStefan82
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« Reply #22 on: 29-09-2016, 11:10:30 PM »

Good tutors in my opinion are needed to be able to compete with fast aggressive decks.

They are absolutely required in a lot "non standard" builds that would be otherwise unplayable.

URx doesn't need them, goodstuff can replace them so I think they are totally fine and helpfull for a good meta.
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MMD
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« Reply #23 on: 30-09-2016, 01:10:14 PM »

I agree on the tutor topic.

The tutors (Demonic, Mystical, Tained Pact) are overpowered by themselves but are required to compete with Combo against Goodstuff.

I think these Tutors are replaceable in Goodstuff but not in the focused decks.


Some other thoughts on borderline cards:

Mana Drain - overpowered but a required hard counter for control decks (could be banned if WotC offers more reliable 2CC counters in future, which will most likely never happen)

Oath of Druids - overpowered but creates a restrictive archetype. I am biased here but I think we should keep this archetype alive for now (I still fear creatureless/Griselbrand versions)

Sensei´s Divining Top - A powerfull but not too powerfull card which is needed for Combo/Control decks to fight good stuff. I don´t accept the time issue argument.

Stoneforge Mystic - A card which goes into all white decks (which should be no real argument), I am unsure if it is "fair" enough to come back. A sneaked in Batterskull is still very powerfull.

Tolarian Academy - too much uncounterable (often recurring) mana explosion, even if restricted to artifacts.


My vote:

Ban - Tolarian Academy
Unban - SDT
Unsure - Stoneforge Mystic






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« Reply #24 on: 21-12-2016, 05:47:09 PM »

I agree with the above posters - Goodstuff decks just play good cards. Ban a tutor and combo gets hit 10x harder than a goodstuff pile because the goodstuff pile just wants good cards, combo wants very specific effects. Without tutors you're drawing random Nantuko Husks and that won't win you any games against pure raw quality. Realistically threatening to kill does.

With that:

Unban: Natural Order
Ban: Primeval Titan

The rationale for NO ban is always NO=>Titan, and how it sees play in Goodstuff decks as a blowout play. So eliminate that specific play. Goodstuff isn't going to run random uncastables the way combo decks do and if they do it's much more of a cost than running a top-of-the-curve Prime Time, and Ramp decks have more than enough bombs to choose from. Losing Titan hurts both combo and ramp, but far less than losing NO hurts Hulk decks for example.
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