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Banlist changes - Oct. 1st

Started by Vazdru, 03-09-2016, 06:48:27 PM

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Vazdru

Hey out there,

there will be maybe some changes on banlist at Oct. 1st.
I would appreciate some feedback of the community if you are satisfied with the current setting or would like to have some changes (and why).

The cards to vote for:

BAN ? Y/N
Demonic Tutor
Fastbond
Mana Drain
Mishra's Workshop
Mystical Tutor
Oath of Druids
Tainted Pact
Timetwister
Tolarian Academy
Yawgmoth's Will

Unban Y/N
Gifts Ungiven
Stoneforge Mystic
Far below the earth
Where the demons hunt the souls of those that sleep
In the city of the Vazdru and the Drin
Where the black flame burns inside the palace fountain.

W0lf

Unban:

Natural Order
Divining top
Stoneforge mystic
Ban:

Tolarian Academy
Yawgmoths will
Fastbond

tonytahiti

Ban:

Tolarian Academy
Fastbond

Unban:

Stoneforge Mystic
Senseis Divining Top
Winner - Pro HL Cup, Prague 2002
Winner - Highlander Regional Masters, Phuket 2006
Winner - Sunrise Trophy Run, Hawaii 2006
Winner - North Dakota HL Championships 2007
Winner - Tahiti "One And Only"-Cup #3, 2009
Winner - Gio di Gio Seria, Florenz, 2016
Winner - Jail or be Jailed, Berlin, 2017

Bat

Ban:

Tainted Pact (Simply because its a second Demonic Tutor for the best deck in the meta. Atm we dont see many 4cblood lists, imo this is because the good players with this deck are testing some other builds. And especially in Mannheim 4cblood is at an alltime low because everybody is playing Ux decks.

Unban:

Nothing

On the Ban Watchlist:

Treasure Cruise (With "theone" behind us, and 3 more big tournaments this year coming up [the one autumn, Maintal Sideevent, HL Cup end of the year]. I would like to see if Ux decks can dominate as some people think, and if it is the case, TC has to go.

Off the Unban Watchlist:

Stoneforge Mystic (If this thing gets unbanned, we will see an instant reban like we did with Natural Order. Its just too strong, autoinclude in too many decks, boring and repetative games focusing around SM and the tutored sword.)

Goblin-Diplomaten

Quote from: tonytahiti on 05-09-2016, 09:18:38 AM
Ban:

Tolarian Academy
Fastbond

Unban:

Stoneforge Mystic
Senseis Divining Top

Why?

Quote from: W0lf on 04-09-2016, 11:46:30 AM
Unban:

Natural Order
Divining top
Stoneforge mystic
Ban:

Tolarian Academy
Yawgmoths will
Fastbond

Why?

Goblin-Diplomaten

BAN ? Y/N
Demonic Tutor      N - 2 mana sorcery speed tutor, i think being sorcery makes this card fair
Fastbond      N - fast mana is dangerous, but the cost of having a land heavy deck/hand is fine.
Mana Drain      Y - i would love to see another 2 mana hard counter, but mana drain is more of a premium ramp spell
Mishra's Workshop   N - fast mana is dangerous, but the cost of having a artifact heavy deck/hand is fine.
Mystical Tutor       N - Instant tutors are dangerous, but the card disadvantage makes this card fair
Oath of Druids       N - It would destroy a lot of archetypes which are strong but beatable
Tainted Pact      Y - 2 mana instant speed tutor, i think being instant makes this card unfair   
Timetwister      N - This card is only relevant for combo decks, as long as not all tournaments are dominated by combo decks there is no need to ban the card
Tolarian Academy   N - fast mana is dangerous, but the cost of having a artifact heavy deck/hand is fine.
Yawgmoth's Will      N - This card is only relevant for combo decks, as long as not all tournaments are dominated by combo decks there is no need to ban the card

Unban Y/N
Gifts Ungiven      N - An instant tutor for two cards is too strong, I always think of searching for Treasure Cruise/Dig through Time + two cards you might need
Stoneforge Mystic   Y/N - not sure with this card, I would love to play with it but at the same time I fear seeing it and batterskull in every game till it gets banned again

derStefan82

For me the format seems pretty fine at the moment, there are different / diversive top 8 in all major tournaments.
I think Ux took the place of Blood in being the most played / successful deck overall.

Insert Quote
BAN ? Y/N
Demonic Tutor      N - this makes "non-standard" decks playable, there is no real replacement for those decks that have to deal with decks killing you in 4 turns (RDW, fast Aggro)
Fastbond      N - requires really special setting, almost only used in combo shells but at the moment don't see that it's over the edge
Mana Drain      N - could be a potential ban candidate if you would like to weaken blue decks as it's one of the strongest cards for blue control mages
Mishra's Workshop   N - requires special setting, is there forever and never had the feeling it's too strong
Mystical Tutor       N - personally I like having this in the format because the cheap counters make combo playable and not auto loose because of the speed of the format (similar to DT)
Oath of Druids       N - it would destroy a lot of archetypes which are strong but beatable and it's good against creature strategies which are getting better and better (there are also many more good solutions meanwhile)
Tainted Pact      N - not amazing in combo because of the exiling, kind of random to ban it because of blood which is anyway not dominating right now, seems like a fair card in general  
Timetwister      N - This card is only relevant for combo decks, as long as not all tournaments are dominated by combo decks there is no need to ban the card
Tolarian Academy   N - fast mana is dangerous, but the cost of having a artifact heavy deck/hand is fine.
Yawgmoth's Will      N - This card is only relevant for combo decks, as long as not all tournaments are dominated by combo decks there is no need to ban the card

Unban Y/N
Gifts Ungiven      N - my assumption is that for 4 mana it's pretty mana intensive, if you look at vintage everyone thought that after unrestriction a lot of gift decks will appear but in the meantime the formats all got faster, on the other hand you have the Unburial Rites combo in addition so there is quite some risk here.
Stoneforge Mystic   N - would like to play it but fear another story like Natural Order here

Shuffle

I'm feeling a bit like in Eldrazi-Winter at the moment... Play UR Mirror or loose!
Since some players in Mannheim have updated their UR-lists this is the most powerful deck in the format.
Even the proud inventor of 4c Blood plays it (even though he hates the deck) because it is too strong!
I have tried for at least a month to bring any builds that could stand a chance against it and the best result i could come up with was about 50/50 with a bant-tempo deck fully teched against UR.
Fact is: this deck has NO bad matchups. at worst 50/50 whitch leads towards a meta where everyone is playing U/X control and midrange will vanish completely.
The list of the 30 most played cards at the "The One" highlander tournament had only 5 non-blue cards on it which is also a strong sign that blue is currently much too strong!



BAN ? Y/N
Demonic Tutor - N- Combo is not dominating so remain on watchlist
Fastbond - N- Combo is not dominating so remain on watchlist
Mana Drain - y - the strongest blue card atm wich can turn around a game very easyly by providing too much tempo for the control player
Mishra's Workshop - N- Combo is not dominating so remain on watchlist
Mystical Tutor - N - has mostly 2 targets: mana drain and Tresure Cruise those are the random game winners. not the tutor
Oath of Druids - N - hasn't seen much play in the last time anyway
Tainted Pact - N - it should remain on the watchlist but atm blood is not the deck crushing the meta so no need for ban right now
Timetwister - N- Combo is not dominating so remain on watchlist
Tolarian Academy - N- Combo is not dominating so remain on watchlist
Yawgmoth's Will - N- Combo is not dominating so remain on watchlist

Treasure Cruise and Mana Drain are too Strong in the current Meta, leading to dominating 2colored nonbasic-hate decks, smothering any cool 3+colour builds people might come up with by denying those decks to "play Magic", making the meta very one-sided, boring and frustrating.

Unban Y/N
Gifts Ungiven - N - a better Dig through time which costs only 4 without delve. above that it feeds the strongest decks in the current meta
Stoneforge Mystic - N - allthough it could give midrange a boost the games would become one sided and swingy like with Natural Order

berlinballz

Hey, me again, with the yearly announcement (it's always the same): Just because there is a shift in a small meta game DO NOT cry for bans right away. We had it in Berlin with one Artifacts-Genius and it's just wrong. A 35 player tournament isn't the Meta, look outside your box, try beating a deck for more than a few weeks, build to beat it and consider that Highlander exists in many cities and countries. Meta games shift. It's totally normal. Interesting side note: When Mannheim played 4C Blood Mirrors for years and won GPs with it no one in Mannheim EVER asked for bans to stop Blood. Now someone finally figured out how to punish Blood and you feel the need to ban all really good blue cards? UR has not proven to be a problem anywhere else. It hasn't even been very good. It loses to a lot of decks. A well built three color-deck which is designed to not fold to random Back to Basics and Blood Moon outqualities UR all day. Imho. UR has a ways to go to prove it's overpowered. Blue is the best color in eternal formats, like it or hate it. I heard green is good in standard right now.

Highlander is about using all cards ever printed to beat all cards ever printed.
We need less bans and more games. That's all.

I'm not gonna make a list. Nothing needs to be banned. There is 0 consensus right now among the Metas on anything being too good. Which is good. UR ... too good. I really didn't see that one coming.


tonytahiti

If you think UR is the best deck in the format, you have no Idea. I know this sounds harsh but its the truth. UR is so far from being the best deck your post reads like a joke. Again, sounding harsh, again, only the truth.

UR has tons of absolutely horrendous matchups, including RDW (estimate 39% to 61%, no lifegain, no fast clock, land hate is dead), including uw tempo, including uw control, including tuned and well played sultai lists, including artifacts. Artifacts loses against UR only if b2b or
blood moon is coming down or an aggressive start is followed up by price. chances are this wont be the case (looking at one game). Pls stop referring to Blood Moon and 2B2 as end all cards, that ruin your day. Those cards in UR are not tutorable and even if we include Magus only every 33th card is actually capable of preventing your opponent to cast spells. Chances are that you do not draw one of those in one particular game (including fetchlands, and thinning: yes).

If you feel like Eldrazi Winter, work on your deckbuilding and your playskill. UR won two tournaments (both small, in highlander there all only small tournaments, but those mentioned are like..particularly small..what is it..19 people and 37? in the grand scheme of things, this means literally nothing, it just means variance is a thing in magic. big surprise there).

I cant read those statements because it only focuses on "i lost to that, x blood player even plays it now". Tell me how UR shits its pants when smiter comes down turn 2 and looks at 2 counter spells and lighting bolt in their hand. every 4 toughness creature is a nightmare. you think ur is a better deck in a big tourney than jeskai? this is laughable. i take the better, way better, card quality over that every33thcardislandhate aspect all day ever day. UR is absolutely amazing if you draw blood moon and b2b every game and play vs 3c deck every game: yes. That is not reality. Apart from the land hate UR is an underpowered deck that has bad removal, lacks flexible answers to different kinds of permanents (enchantments, pw). Its good at handling things on the stack, agreed but a good player is very ready to expose this weakness.

I am baffled to read this statement. UR: the best deck? where the fuck are you playing? jeezus.

Winner - Pro HL Cup, Prague 2002
Winner - Highlander Regional Masters, Phuket 2006
Winner - Sunrise Trophy Run, Hawaii 2006
Winner - North Dakota HL Championships 2007
Winner - Tahiti "One And Only"-Cup #3, 2009
Winner - Gio di Gio Seria, Florenz, 2016
Winner - Jail or be Jailed, Berlin, 2017

berlinballz

Note to history: The fact that the last two post almost say the same thing and were posted amost at the exact same time without either writer knowing about the other is amazing even if you don't agree with the content. Just saying.  ::)

Goblin-Diplomaten

Note to history: The fact that tonytahiti summoned a wall of text about someone explaining his ban/unban decisions, but is unable too explain his own  is amazing... no wait that's pretty sad.  ::)


I think Ux is at the moment the best meta game call, but for sure not the best deck in the format.
QuoteEven the proud inventor of 4c Blood plays it (even though he hates the deck) because it is too strong!
It is too strong in the meta that you expect in a bigger tournament than a FNM, I would love to hear MaQi's opinion  ;)

Shuffle

Thanks for (nearly) all the kind feedback on my thoughts.

It's true that i only have a meta game perspective of my home town (whitch happens to be MaQi's too)
but that's what this threat is all about, right? collecting diffrent player's oppinions from all countrys and citys to see if anything sticks out everywhere at the same time.
So i gave my 2 cents.

I would love to hear MaQi's oppinion on our current UR build ;)

W0lf

All mentioned cards have been the subject of discussion for years. I can't think of any new arguments on why they should be banned/unbanned so my earlier statement should be enough.
If not: Q_Q

DarkLight

My Ban Wish:
Mana Drain: 2cc Ramp + Disruption (2 in 1). It allows you mostly to play turn 3, spell(s) for 5-6cc + you slowed down your opponent.
Oath of Druids: I am one of these players who wanted this card on the banlist for years. Because its hard to handle and playable really early in the game so mostly no time given for the opponent to react. With creatures like the Eldrazis or Grislebrand the game could be pretty much over at turn ~3.
Since this card is at the moment mostly played by combodecks increases my wish for a ban right here.
Tolarian Academy: I think this card makes it more and more possible to play decks like 'Eggs' who are more like Solitaire decks with nearly no player interaction. So probably the only player who has fun with this deck is the pilot himself.

My Unban Wish:
Stoneforge Mystic: Since this card was banned few more new tools to handle her or the equipments she provides were released. I think even a turn 2 'Stoneforge Mystic' into turn 3 'Batterskull', which was probalbly the main reason for the ban, wouldn't harm the format too much these days.

Formerly known as With-FuLL-Force.