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upcoming Ban list votes ChristophO

Started by ChristophO, 04-05-2016, 05:39:59 PM

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ChristophO

Hello Community!

I will use this thread for my personal discussion of which cards I am going to vote for a ban/unban. I am strongly looking forward to read fromt he poeople that have been rooting for a more open discussion. When in doubt I always to prefer to do no changes. Due to human nature changes are always conceived as BAD by people and will cause negative opinions and discussion in communities. That said fixing things is still beneficial of course and will result in a net gain for the format and therefore all of us.

To ban a card it needs to be unhealthy for the format and quite powerful. If you compare our HL ban list with 60 card formats one can see that the cut off for power level runs somewhere between the vintage and legacy formats for the most part. This means that crazy powerful cards from all of magic's past should be in the HL meta like they are now. For evaluating card strength it is still necessary to evaluate the meta and availability of "enabler" cards. Biggest contrast between 60 card formats and Hl is the amount of strong fast mana you can put in your deck. There are very few playable Dark ritual effects that you can play in HL. The same is true for cantrips - which is one reason why some players are/were worried about the ban of SDT in April  btw. This is important to keep in mind when talking about card power in a vacuum and moving to comparisions with 60 card formats and/or metas.

That said I personally am looking for a HL meta where the attack step/preventing the attack step is the typical way of winning a game of HL magic. Combo decks are fine in the meta but should not be a "deck to beat" and be common in the meta. There should be competitive combo decks that are attractive to play for players that like that stuff without completely taking over the meta and driving out the players that enjoy combo math etc. I know this is hard to "measure" and that this will rely on my judgment but also on the feedback of your impressions and feelings.   

That beeing said I would like to talk about the current top 3 (imo) combo decks:
5c oath storm
Artifact combo
reanimator

I feel that 5c storm and artifact combo are too strong for the well beeing of the format right now. This is especially problematic because both decks do not rely on creatures at all. The decks also perform vastly differently from metagame to metagame which makes an openminded discussion even harder. Cards that have been in discussion by the council and the communtiy that might be banned are the following:

Fastbond (fast mana)
Oath of Druids (used as self mill outlet for a predeterminded combo win)
Tolarian Academy (fast mana)
Yawgmoth's Will
3 cmc Draw 7 effects/Time Spiral
limiting the avaiable tutors

Now the question is how to tone the decks without
- completely "banning" them
- doing a one time ban

I firmly believe that Fastbond should be banned. It is a do nothing/break everything card with no middle ground and upside for the format. It needs to leave the format and has done us no good. Just banning Fastbond will not be enough however. However it should be noted that the ban of Fastbond will tone done Yawgmoth's will severly in those combo decks.Now I would like to pull some teeth from the oath combo deck by taking away "Oath of druids" as well. This would have the splash daamge of ending the existance of the "oath control" archetype but I see no other way. That archetype plays a very niche role in the metagames I know so I am willing to pay that price. Let me know if you feel differently!   
The artifact combo deck is a much tougher nut to crack. While I could still see a Yawgmoth's will and assorted two card combo deck beeing around after banning oath I dont see the same for 5c artifact combo after the ban of Tolarian Academy. I also feel that TA is spawning more T2 artifact ramp decks than oath, so I feel the splash damage would be a bit greater here. The deck also feels "only" opressive in the Berlin meta. Still we should fix it. I actually think we should attack the card drawing of that deck (as well as the storm combo deck). 
I have the hope that banning Wheel of Fortune and Timetwister could cost the deck artifact combo deck quite a bit of resilience to counterspells as well as ways to reach critical mass of of artifacts to really break Tolarian Academy. I would like to discuss this with the community. Downside would be the splash damage to High Tide/Dream Halls and similiar combo decks.
I am perfectly fine with Tolarian academy tapping for 8 mana btw. If it is turn 8 or 10 of the game. TA is problematic tapping for four on turn 3 which is enabled by drawing another 7 cards to find 2 more artifacts along "win" spells.   

Reanimator is in a very good spot right now power-wise and has been for a year or two. However i do not want to have a "oath" scenario with that deck which would be enabled by entomb always getting the perfect Fatty for the MU on T1. Thats why I am strongly in favor of keeping Entomb on the Ban list.


BAN
Fastbond
Oath of Druids

Ban Watch List
Wheel of Fortune
Timetwister

UNBAN
Nothing
esp. not Entomb

Vazdru

#1
Quote from: ChristophO on 04-05-2016, 05:39:59 PM

That beeing said I would like to talk about the current top 3 (imo) combo decks:
5c oath storm
Artifact combo
reanimator

I feel that 5c storm and artifact combo are too strong for the well beeing of the format right now.

based on available data and based on personal experience I would say you've just missed the best one atm
http://mtgpulse.com/event/24189#327552
http://mtgpulse.com/event/24146#327216
http://mtgpulse.com/event/23505#321335
http://mtgpulse.com/event/23165#318199

furthermore I can't see any of the mentioned combo-decks are too strong in comparision how an average Midrange- (e. g. Blood, Jeskai) or Aggro- (e. g. RDW) deck performed in recent tournaments (also against the mentioned combo-decks from time to time)

additionaly I don't like the idea if all combo-player are forced to play Scapeshift while other combos become unplayable - or should the just switch to 4c Blood, Jeskai and Izzet? ... that's not my idea of a diverse meta
Far below the earth
Where the demons hunt the souls of those that sleep
In the city of the Vazdru and the Drin
Where the black flame burns inside the palace fountain.

ChristophO

#2
Why do you think the three decks I mentioned would be a unplayable?
That is also not my intention.
QuoteThere should be competitive combo decks that are attractive to play for players that like that stuff without completely taking over the meta and driving out the players that enjoy combo math

There have been at least two first places for artifact combo since January that I know of and has been a constant nuisance for parts of the Berlin meta. Reanimator and Storm has done really well at the Highlander GP level last couple of times. They are are more established to me than Scapeshift. 


While I did not include Scapeshift in my combo list (which I sould have) it is a deck that needs to deny the attack step to win. It's a deck that prolongs every game to finnish with a combo. Or with Titania, Protector of Argoth. I also didnt include Azorious control or Artifact Ramp with Thopter/Sword. Though I agree that Scapeshift is much more focused on the Combo finish than those decks.  

Vazdru

#3
Quote from: ChristophO on 04-05-2016, 10:04:45 PM

Why do you think the three decks I mentioned would be a unplayable?


that wasn't my statement

Quote from: Vazdru on 04-05-2016, 09:39:38 PM

additionaly I don't like the idea if all combo-player are forced to play Scapeshift while other combos become unplayable


I just expressed that i don't wanna ban cards which probably lead to less playable decks and therefore to a more monotone and less diverse meta
in contrast I like the idea to ban cards which maybe weaken the overpresented decks like 4c Blood which is obviously hard as most cards of this archetype are easy replacable (as I don't wanna ban duals or fetchlands)
that is also the reason why I don't wanna weaken other archetpes atm (so I haven't voted for Ban Mystical Tutor and Mana Drain although I guess they are both ban-worthy based on power-level)

pet- / tier 2-decks won't become more competetive if we weaken some combo-decks as they will still lose to the currently most dominating decks
Far below the earth
Where the demons hunt the souls of those that sleep
In the city of the Vazdru and the Drin
Where the black flame burns inside the palace fountain.

ChristophO

#4
It wasnt?

Quote from: Vazdru on 04-05-2016, 09:39:38 PM
additionaly I don't like the idea if all combo-player are forced to play Scapeshift while other combos become unplayable

As you know I disagree on Mystical and Mana drain.
For now I would like to discuss the spell based "combo menace" that some parts of the community has a problem with (as far as I have heard). I thinik I know your standpoint from our internal discussions. I have posted here to get feedback from the community as well.

tonytahiti

#5
Thank you for writing this ChristophO.

I am relieved to see that (at least some) people in the council realize that there is indeed a problem. As a berlin player, who is confronted with 5cArtifacts alot, it has been a little difficult to voice my opinion without being targeted by stuff like "yeah, only because you lose to it", "only because you dont metagame versus it", "it is only a problem in berlin" - there has been a serious lack of professionalism and knowledge shown by some council members in my opinion. I know that sounds condecending but statements like "fastbond is not a real card in highlander" or "it has not won a "big" tournament" (while having 80%+ win percentage around here) just lack so much empathy, knowledge and thoughtfulness that I can not find other words than that.

That Vazdru says "you forgot the strongest one" is a perfect example. A few berlin players have said they believe there is a problem (over months now) and a council member, who has not played here, has probably not played more than 5 games vs artifacts (i would like to know), looks at a few results and says "obv scapeshift is better". From far away he looks into the berlin meta, totally dismisses what people have said/felt and basically says "nah, no matter what you guys say, mtgpulse makes it clear, scapeshift is stronger". That is naive, condescending, amateurish, not thoughtful and overall super arrogant. (Note: If Paul, our 5c Artifacts player, would post his winning list on mtgpulse every time he wins an FNM MTGPULSE WOULD BE TOTALLY OVERLY FLOODED with the same list week by week - there has not been "two wins by artifacts since january" but about 6-8, pointing to mtgpulse to argue for a strength of the deck feels so weak and limited to me. )

Now I kind of started a rant, which i didnt even want. But some of this stuff is just so baffling to me. Back to my original statement: Thank you ChristophO for writing this .
Winner - Pro HL Cup, Prague 2002
Winner - Highlander Regional Masters, Phuket 2006
Winner - Sunrise Trophy Run, Hawaii 2006
Winner - North Dakota HL Championships 2007
Winner - Tahiti "One And Only"-Cup #3, 2009
Winner - Gio di Gio Seria, Florenz, 2016
Winner - Jail or be Jailed, Berlin, 2017

Vazdru

at least I don't ignore the available data  ::)
but nevertheless I respect your opinion

Far below the earth
Where the demons hunt the souls of those that sleep
In the city of the Vazdru and the Drin
Where the black flame burns inside the palace fountain.

tonytahiti

Imagine this scenario: One gets the feeling there is a huge gap in knowledge and understanding of the game in between council members. Voicing this is difficult because saying "you don't know what you are talking about" sounds hurtful and aggressive and it is very hard to sugarcoat this statement – the opinion that some council members just lack some knowledge/understanding. So is there no way to say that without sounding like a total jackass? Let's find out.

"That said I personally am looking for a HL meta where the attack step/preventing the attack step is the typical way of winning a game of HL magic. Combo decks are fine in the meta but should not be a "deck to beat" and be common in the meta." – when I read this from a council member, I feel this format is in good hands. Those are only two sentences, but IMO there is a lot of knowledge and understanding in this. I enjoy reading this because I go "snap, that is well said and well phrased and contains much truth". (because it implies that tuning your deck vs one boogeyman deck – in this case 5c artifacts, a deck, that basically plays solitaire – means becoming vulnerable vs. the other 10 decks you could face in a tournament, something that results in a super shifted meta, where you need super specific answers vs one deck but can't have a decent matchup vs. the other decks, cause those specific answers you put in your deck..are..well.."specific" and don't carry their weight in those other matchups). One would expect every council member has written some good stuff, some knowledgable stuff that shows to the community: "We know what we are doing!" (And no I don't mean "statements I agree with" but things that touch the game on a deeper level, that go deeper than "here are some results, and this data is available" etc.). But I have been reading a lot of stuff on this forum and some council members deliver very basic and tier3 arguments, that makes it painfully obvious to me that there is just a lack of understanding for this game called Magic the Gathering. (again: I do not want to hurt anybody, its just my honest impression). So whats the solution? Will the council members agree or admit that some have a better idea what is going on in this game? Of course not, they are not aware and every persons instinct is to say "I know a lot of things! I am very knowledgeable! There is a reason I am in the council!" – so that will always be the reaction and I understand (kind of). But it remains my honest opinion and I think it has become obvious that some members deliver thoughtful and deep arguments while others only really scratch on the surface and deliver very basic arguments.
Winner - Pro HL Cup, Prague 2002
Winner - Highlander Regional Masters, Phuket 2006
Winner - Sunrise Trophy Run, Hawaii 2006
Winner - North Dakota HL Championships 2007
Winner - Tahiti "One And Only"-Cup #3, 2009
Winner - Gio di Gio Seria, Florenz, 2016
Winner - Jail or be Jailed, Berlin, 2017

derStefan82

"That said I personally am looking for a HL meta where the attack step/preventing the attack step is the typical way of winning a game of HL magic. Combo decks are fine in the meta but should not be a "deck to beat" and be common in the meta."

I have to say that I feel the complete opposit if I read something like that. There are people who like playing combo and I'm all for the possibility to play aggro, control and combo strategies and they should all be tier 1.

Banning Combo Decks will lead to even more 4C Blood style decks.

I think Paul played Academy in the HL Ladder as well and it was not dominating there, we have a local Academy player in Würzburg as well who brewed a really long time on it and knows how to play that deck.

Of course this kind of deck feels more devastating if you loose against but it has it's downsides in playing 50% mana and "no" creatures.


tonytahiti

#9
"I have to say that I feel the complete opposit if I read something like that. There are people who like playing combo and I'm all for the possibility to play aggro, control and combo strategies and they should all be tier 1."

This is exactly what I mean. A Statement that is much deeper gets interpreted (misinterpreted) in the most basic way. I mean..you say "there are people who like playing combo..". WHO SAID COMBO SHOULDNT EXIST, WHO SAID IT SHOULDNT BE TIER 1? (Note: Artifacts is something close to Tier 0.5) His statement goes much deeper cause it implies that IF a combo deck is the strongest deck in the room, GEARING TOWARDS IT (or as he said "deck to beat") results in a super negatively shifted Metagame. Cause gearing your deck towards a deck with zero Creatures means cutting most/ all creature removal and stuff like Kavu/Reflector Mage, everything that interacts with Creatures. That, again, results in your deck being "good" (probably "decent" at best) vs his deck (you go from 10 dead cards to 0 maybe) but you are playing against other creature decks with no removal, which leads to you being highly disadvantaged (thats another big difference between scapeshift and artifacts, ux midrange decks have close to 0 dead cards vs. spapeshift, but they have close to 10 vs artifacts - every hand with path + reflector mage is a mulligan vs artifacts while its a fine keep vs scapeshift, for example). So its tournament day and you found a way to beat Paul maybe = Great. But you are unlucky and you are not even facing him but you are facing 6 creature decks with your Zero Removal deck. That maybe gives an Idea how simple minded statements like "you aren't metagaming vs it enough" are.

(And Shocker: Paul has 0 dead cards vs every opponent. 0. You know why? Cause he doesnt play vs. your deck, he plays vs himself and the clock)

So please, read a little deeper, read a little between the lines. He makes a very good and thoughful statement and it doesnt deserve to be met by a statement that is as simple and wrong as "people like combo, i think combo should exists" - OF COURSE IT SHOULD EXIST. By the way, i am gonna write an article called 20ThingsWrongWithArtifacts , maybe its gonna be 30 things, maybe that clarifies what problems exist with this deck.
Winner - Pro HL Cup, Prague 2002
Winner - Highlander Regional Masters, Phuket 2006
Winner - Sunrise Trophy Run, Hawaii 2006
Winner - North Dakota HL Championships 2007
Winner - Tahiti "One And Only"-Cup #3, 2009
Winner - Gio di Gio Seria, Florenz, 2016
Winner - Jail or be Jailed, Berlin, 2017

ChristophO

I think T1 is a rather undefined term. When I talk about T1 decks I mean decks that perform well and are played "a lot". A lot meaning I would deem it likely to play more than once against them at a Highlander/MGM Type of HL event. Right now there are only three T1 decks in HL (according to my understanding):

4c Blood
Izzet Aggro control
Azorious control

There are a bunch of other well performing decks that I would expect to perform as well (let's call it T1.5):
Mono Red
Scapeshift
Reanimator
Artifact Combo
5c Storm
other stuff I am missing right now
...

T2 (decks that are not the optimal choice to win such a big tournament):
Pattern Rector
Artifact ramp
Mono black Aggro
DreamHalls
High Tide
....


Pls note I tried to focus a bit more on the Combo decks of the format. This is also I want to have combo decks in T1.5 - that means people can play combo and have a great/as great a shot at winning. But their deck might be more complicated, or needs to be be tuned a bit more thoroughly which will keep it's numbers in the meta down. Keep also in mind that such a list depends on your personally perceived MU's between archetypes. Which is especially hard to test with 100 card singleton decks.  

Now my perception is that for Berlin only players put artifact combo into the T1 category I have defined a bit more precisely in this post. That is a problem because it will start to warp card choices. The perception in Berlin right now seems to be that artifaxct combo is a problem and based on the many reports from their torunaments in our forum over the course of at least the last year (which not all them have been uploaded to mtgpulse) I can understand that feeling. So Vazdru, I am not ignoring data, it's just that you seem to be disregarding that data (it's in our forum - have a look). Those results are not changed a lick by Scapeshift also being a good choice (which I have never disputed).

Now what will acutally help is honest input from artifact combo players. how can we weaken the deck a bit to take away the most busted (and thus most hated) quick kills and add a bit more vulnerability to the deck without banning the decks centerpieces and making it unplayable which I think most of us dont want to happen. But if I read Vazdru and derStefan82 it feels like we should be discussing unbanning Mana Vault, Mana Crypt and maybe Mox Saphire (bad in 4c blood after all) to increase deck diversity...

Dr. Opossum

All calm down a little pls... The passive aggressive sidenotes are annoying as hell.


Quote from: ChristophO on 05-05-2016, 07:38:37 PM

Now what will acutally help is honest input from artifact combo players. how can we weaken the deck a bit to take away the most busted (and thus most hated) quick kills and add a bit more vulnerability to the deck without banning the decks centerpieces and making it unplayable which I think most of us dont want to happen.

I will write Paul/ Silberhase a PM. Maybe he is willing to give some input to this topic.

berlinballz

#12
Thanks for starting this discussion, Christoph. I agree a lot with the initial approach that combo and fast mana should not become overly strong. Regarding the dominance of Artifact/Academy based decks piloted by the Silberhase in unique fashion (in Berlin) I can just repeat that the deck's result numbers are incredibly lopsided. Statements like "it has never won a big tournament" or "it didn't do good in the online league" are mindblowing to me and have been analyzed enough in the previous posts. The number of total Highlander players in my opinion totally allows the assumption that no one has mastered these decks like Silberhase. Meaning: nobody else seems to know how to play this deck and is maybe a year behind him experience wise. At his level of play the deck to me is absolutely busted. The fact that he didnt win the big tourneys (one person playing this deck to its full potential, no one else) and that he didn't win the online league (variance, different concentration level on screen) are things that can be easily explained even though the deck wins at an alarming 70+ percent rate.

As someone who has actually witnessed it I can only say this: The only ban that will do anything in my opinion is Tolarian Academy, although this also hurts other decks. The artifact decks will still be very good in Silberhase's hands. They still attack from a unique angle. And I have seen the decks win without Academy many times. I can only tip my hat to the Silberhase again, because he has done something beautiful to the meta that's unheard of. But facing him when he plays the deck is simply traumatizing. Maybe he has an idea how to shoot himself in the foot without an Academy ban, but that deck would still be Tier 1 in his hands even if he shoots both feet.

(I say "decks" sometimes because what he did with artifact staxx last friday was just as traumatizing as what he does with 5c)

Vazdru

#13
Finnish Nationals, Apr. 9th 2016, 51 players

1. 4c Blood
2. RDW
3. Jeskai Control
4. Esper Control
5. 4c Blood
6. Pattern Rector
7. Cruel Control
8. Mono G Ramp


Meta-Game-Masters # 5 Berlin, Feb. 27th 2016, 52 players

1. 4c Blood
2. RDW
3. Scapeshift
4. Grixis Control
5. Articfact Combo feat. Academy
6. Jeskai Midrange
7. 4c Goodstuff (w/o W)
8. Scapeshift


HL Cup # 16, Hanau, Jan. 2nd 2016, 102 players

1. 4c Blood
2. 4c Blood
3. MBU Control
4. Jeskai Midrange
5. 4c Blood
6. Izzet Aggro-Control
7. Pattern-Rector
8. Simic Aggro-Control


that are the results of the hl tournaments with 50 players+ this year


2:0 vs G(r)-Devotion (Iulus)
2:0 vs RDW (dsck)
1:2 vs Izzet (Tazi)
1:2 vs Esper (Payron)
2:1 vs Reanimator (K0d013e4st)
0:2 vs RDW (r4nd0m)
2:0 vs MBC (piepser)
0:2 vs 4c Goodstuff (w/o G) (Peddy Frost)

overall 10:9

that is Silberhase's performance in HLL Online Leagues with 5c Tolarian Academy-Combo-Control


so you can say the data is useless - like everybody who don't like the data presented / this is your good right
but you shouldn't blame we for taking this data in account

at least I won't think about ways to weaken Stax or 5c Artifact Combo-Control atm

maybe the only way to convince me is if you play in next online league to prove the data is useless and your opinion/experience is right
looking forward facing some Staxx, Artifact-Combo-Decks, Fastbond-Combos in next season

deal?
Far below the earth
Where the demons hunt the souls of those that sleep
In the city of the Vazdru and the Drin
Where the black flame burns inside the palace fountain.

berlinballz

I seriously wanna stress that I am not trying to make fun of you. But I read this statement 10 times and I cannot understand what you are saying.
Can you like use other words?

Quoteso you can say the data is useless - like everybody who don't like the data presented / this is your good right
but you shouldn't blame we for taking this data in account

at least I won't think about ways to weaken Stax or 5c Artifact Combo-Control atm

maybe the only way to convince me is if you play in next online league to prove the data is useless and your opinion/experience is right
looking forward facing some Staxx, Artifact-Combo-Decks, Fastbond-Combos in next season

deal?