Feedback on January 2016 bannings

[MacGyver]

Announcement here: http://www.magicplayer.org/forum/index.php?topic=1164.0

The last watchlist changes are somehow confusing to me. During the last banning season the councils statement regarding Tolarian Academy was:

"Tolarian Academy always stays under close observation, as its potential as a key card for non-interactive combo is known.
The game has slowed down with the introduction of the free mulligan and it is not as easy as it was under spoils conditions to sculpt a perfect hand, but with the tutoring power present in the format, building a combo shell around Tolarian Academy is perfectly possible, and we want to see, what kind of new archetype this possibly brings forth. Should it be harmful for the metagame, we have to think again about Academy. The latest developments regarding the Eggs deck demand a reintroduction of Tolarian Academy to the ban watch list."

First of all, you said that TA ALWAYS stays under close observation. Then you also bring up all the good reasons why it should be watched. And last but not least you mentioned the EGGs-Deck. But if you followed the tournament results (Berlin and recently also Erfurt) you should have noticed, that there is also a second, even stronger deck that abuses the TA. Furthermore, the biggest part of the Berlin HL Community is constantly pointing out that this deck is really strong and should be observed.

So, please tell me, why is this card not even on the watchlist anymore? And please don't tell me, that only Berlin has this problem and that they have to deal with this because the meta in other regions don't have this problem. The fact, that a copy of this deck, the first time it was played somewhere else than in Berlin, instantly won the Erfurt Qualifier should at least justify that TA stays on the watchlist.

Especially this decision has caused a great shock and a huge discussions inside the berlin community. And as far as I get it, the B community feels ignored by the HL council.

I think you made a big mistake with this decision and I'm really looking forward to your explanations.

Edit by pyyhttu: Added announcement URL and split this post as its own topic titled "Feedback on January 2016 bannings"

[Dr. Opossum]

Hello MacGyver. Thank you for your Feedback!

The last voting concerning Tolarian Academy has led to a removal from the Watch list. The Council consists of very different representatives with very different opinions. Berlin has two strong voices in the Council. Therefore the fear, that this part of the community is not heard, is unfounded. Still the Council as whole has decided to evaluate Tolarian Academy as less problematic.

Especially at the last bigger tournaments (MGM, Slovakia, Cup) the performance of TA was not really impressing. The card was neither played very often, nor the results were outstanding.

The addressed list of Paul / Silberhase was only in the midfield at the last MGM.
The addressed Eggs-Deck was also not lead into the Top 8 by Toffel and hasn't made any appearance afterwards.

We as Council cannot just have Berlin in our focus, but have to keep the view on the whole community, which consist of the German areas, Finland and Slovakia.

Therefore, also as a person from Berlin, you should ask yourself some reflecting questions.

Why is a deck seen as unbeatable, but no appropriate strategy is developed against it?
Apparently the main problem was found in TA. Seemingly the option to integrate specific answers against this problem into the deck and the risk to make the own deck inconsistent, is inferior to the option to let Pauls winning streak unanswered continue.

Why isn't TA played this often elsewhere? Why is Paul the only pilot of the deck, even in Berlin? Until now only Payron tried this list.

Overall you should keep in mind that good constant placements are always a mixture of deck AND pilot. Payron and Paul are both players that regularly achieve great tournament results. Whether with TA, RDW or UW Control.
The reason that also these players lose now and then, is not only due to third components, like luck, daily performance etc, but due to decks with specific answers, that obviously could be found more often on bigger tournaments and in which you don't just play against 3 but 6 opponents.

Overall the points presence and performance were crucial for our decision. Still we have Tolarian Academy on the radar, independent of an entry on the Watch list. The missing Watch list entry only means, that under normal conditions Academy will not be banned in June and stays in format at least until October. This is true for every other card as well. Should this decision be exposed as "big mistake", we will react here too.

You as community has the option to counteract this decision. Of course not every Council member has the possibility to check every Facebook group or Twitter account. Speak and write to us, fill out the community questionnaires or give us direct feedback in the forum. Your post, MacGyver, is an important and welcome step into the right direction.

Currently we think about the structure of the Watch and Banned list.
At the moment we juggle with the idea to set up a wider Watch list, with the help of a lowered voting threshold. Cards, which are only troubling a part of the community, therefore has a bigger chance to get onto the Watch list. We will keep you up to date.

[Peddy Frost]

Dear Council,

I really don't like the desicion to remove every card from the potential-unbann-list, and with the recent banpolicy at all. In my opinion it's easy to justify cards that can pull of some kind of "random"-wins and do unfair things in niche Decks. I can fully understand that it might be frustating at some point to have those Situations, but the current ban/unban policy doesn't really affect the Metagame at all. And I think providing a balanced and diverse Metagame is the main reason for banning/unbanning specific cards. Looking at the reported Tourneys since Mulliganchange its obvious that 4cBlood is the most commonly played Archetype by a large margin. Showing off more than twice as much compared to the second most played Deck. This Situation is existing for a reasonable period of Time. As it is your duty to take care of the diversity of the Metagame I think u just have 2 options:

1. Ban centerpiece cards from the Tier1 deck. (which the actual watchlist doesn't indicate at all)
2. Unban centerpiece cards from Tier2 decks to make them more competative (Which the actual watchlist doesn't indicate either)

The only way to cut off 4cGoodstuff decks is to ban their Manabase, which is some kind of wack, since it hurts every other deck too. Unbannig cards like Entomb,Gifts or Balance to enable more consistency in Decks that follow a more unfair/comboish route to victory seems to be a viable option to me. Losing to T4 Iona/eleshNorn off of a gifts isn't really another thing than losing to T4 Primetime off of a NO for example.

Unban centerpieces in Niche decks forces to goodstuff to remove some Goodstuff from their decks and play some more niche cards on their own. That is the price u have to pay if u like playing a format without sideboard (having a sideboard would be very cool though[but thats just my opinion]{like 10 cards or so}). Controldecks have to do it,  Combodecks have to do it, and aggro has to do it too to some extend. It feels like that only the Deck that profits the most from the good manabase in HL doesn't have to do it in an extend than the other Archetypes.

This sux!
Best regards and happy new year

Peddy, the frostiest of all the Frostulats
(sry for grammer and spelling mistakes)     

[Maqi]

As Dr. Opossum already mentionend, we are currently pondering about reducing the voting threshold for the watchlists. Right now, a card will only be watchlisted if a simple majority of the members votes for the card.

It lies in the nature of things that this threshold is not easily met. Should this procedural change take place, it brings with it a different interpretation of the watchlist. Namely as a list of almost all the cards that are somewhat noteworthy in terms of power level and/or playing experience instead of just a list for upcoming bans/unbans of relatively few specific cards.

Consequently, this would regularly enable us to more quickly act when it comes to bannings/unbannings.

[ChristophO]

Hi Peddy,

regarding your two questions of the Watch list:

1) banning centerpieces of 4c blood
Other than having acess to great mana there is not much we can ban in a 4c goodstuff deck. I believe banning the dual/fetch manabase would simply create a new format beacuse the changes in meta an decklists would be that big. I dont see that as an option right now to improve our format.
2)
Unbanning Entomb:
There has been constant discussion about this card in the council. Reanimator has achieved quite a few top 8 results in the last couple of bigger tournaments. I personally feel the deck is strong, viable and in a good spot. Entomb would really buff the deck speedwise (there are quite a few 2cmc reanimation spells) AND enable tutoring for the best fatty against that particular deck. Other 1cmc spells to get a fatty in the grave are effects like Careful study which forces you to reanimate what you happen to had in hand leading to a much better game play in my opinion.
Unbanning Gifts Ungiven:
Also constant discussion about this card. Keep in mind that is has been banned before and that there was a big public demand for that. The community as well as the council has biog proponents for both banning and unbanning. My opinion are that there are two big factors speaking against an unban. A) The card is very dangerous because of the Eggs deck. B) The card eats unbelievable amount of game time not when cast but every time a person could cast it and thinks about it, and again on the next turn and then at end step etc.. I think this is also the main reason while many players hated the card back then before we banned it.
Unbanning Balance:
Balance has been banned for a long time. The card is unbelievably strong as a protection spell for creatureless combo decks such as Eggs and TPS. My personal opinion is that the effect of the card especially due to the discard clause is too powerful for the cmc of 2 and would not be healthy for Highlander game play.   

[Peddy Frost]

Thanks for reply,

I suggested in the Poll that unbannig entomb would be possible if demonic tutor would get banned instead. All decks would suffer from banning the best tutor in the format. But entomb could easily play the same role. The only diffence would be that each archetype other than 4c-blood profits more from entomb, since entomb is simply the best card in reanimator/GY-based strategies and decks with snapcaster Mage/jace are usually getting better options than non-Blue decks.
even if 4c. blood has some good use für entomb, it would basically upgrade each other deck more than 4cBlood.
thanks

[Tiggupiru]

Unbanning Gifts Ungiven:
Also constant discussion about this card. Keep in mind that is has been banned before and that there was a big public demand for that. The community as well as the council has biog proponents for both banning and unbanning. My opinion are that there are two big factors speaking against an unban. A) The card is very dangerous because of the Eggs deck. B) The card eats unbelievable amount of game time not when cast but every time a person could cast it and thinks about it, and again on the next turn and then at end step etc.. I think this is also the main reason while many players hated the card back then before we banned it.

Hmm.. I don't think Eggs is the reason Gifts should be banned. I mean, the deck would play it, but it would not be super-amazing-fun-time that suddenly broke the format.

But I do think time constraints are reason enough to keep the card banned. That is something not all agree, but I have a feeling the power level of the card is not reason anymore. We have Dig Through Times and similar cards that are more efficient when it comes to power. The fact that it would boost combo decks is just a plus in my opinion.

Balance has been banned for a long time. The card is unbelievably strong as a protection spell for creatureless combo decks such as Eggs and TPS. My personal opinion is that the effect of the card especially due to the discard clause is too powerful for the cmc of 2 and would not be healthy for Highlander game play.

Balance on the other hand would be utterly broken in Eggs. Just unload all the cantrips on the table, play this and opponents have nothing. Seems fair. Please unban, I want that so bad.

As Dr. Opossum already mentionend, we are currently pondering about reducing the voting threshold for the watchlists. Right now, a card will only be watchlisted if a simple majority of the members votes for the card.

I don't see a huge downside of having a lot more cards on the watchlist. Allows more flexible reactions to the metagame and sparks discussion.

[pyyhttu]

I suggested in the Poll that unbannig entomb would be possible if demonic tutor would get banned instead.

This an interesting proposal, which I find rational and something I could back up. Namely: Decisions that support maximum deck diversity, on this case banning Demonic and unbanning Entomb, would support this.

Having numerous all around good stuff piles in HL is not what I'd like to see, but decks that have distinguished game plan and synergy. One could then see also Mana Vault unbanned, as it would have little to offer to 4c-Blood, but lots to give e.g. combo and staxx, which are not seen on meta that much at the moment.

[haju]

[...] I suggested in the Poll that unbannig entomb would be possible if demonic tutor would get banned instead. All decks would suffer from banning the best tutor in the format. But entomb could easily play the same role. The only diffence would be that each archetype other than 4c-blood profits more from entomb, since entomb is simply the best card in reanimator/GY-based strategies and decks with snapcaster Mage/jace are usually getting better options than non-Blue decks. even if 4c. blood has some good use für entomb, it would basically upgrade each other deck more than 4cBlood. [...]

I think that Control is another archetype which would miss demonic tutor and even though I have not that much experience playing 4c-Blood I would suspect that they can compensate the loss of Demonic Tutor way better than control decks. Playing a control deck in a diverse meta requires many different solutions and the easiest way to get them is (and most likely will always be) Demonic Tutor. If you search for decks which play Demonic Tutor on mtgpulse, you will find control, 4c-Blood, reanimator and combo decks. Considering all these archetypes, only reanimator would be happy about the proposed change. I guess combo and 4c-Blood could compensate the loss somehow more or less easily while but control players would lose and key part of their deck.