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Bannings as of July 1st, 2008

Started by Vazdru, 04-07-2008, 11:32:11 PM

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Vazdru

http://www.highlandermagic.info/index.php?id=bannedlist

Banned:

    * Cephalid Illusionist / Zephaliden-Illusionist
    * Dread Return / Furchteinflößende Rückkehr
    * Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker / Kiki-Jiki, Spiegelzerbrecher
    * Painter's Servant / Diener des Malers
    * Chain of Plasma / Kette des Plasmas

Unbanned:

    * -

Watchlist:

    * + Hermit Druid
    * + Life from the Loam
    * - Aluren
    * - Dreamhalls
    * - Mana Severance
    * - Mishra's Workshop
    * - Yawgmoth's Bargain


Valid during July 15th, 2008 0:00 CET until October 14th, 2008 24:00 CET

Far below the earth
Where the demons hunt the souls of those that sleep
In the city of the Vazdru and the Drin
Where the black flame burns inside the palace fountain.

pyyhttu

Why Painter's Servant, not Grindstone?
Why Cephalid Illusionist, not Hermit Druid?

Also: What's the policy with these anticipating, preventing bannings that seem to have been the trend lately (Flash, Kiki-Jiki, Chain of Plasma)? I can't find grounds for them from the official 5-point banning strategy at: http://highlandermagic.info/index.php?id=faq#4

It feels almost as if the committee is not giving the players a chance at all to react to the meta by evolving it and letting them to work things out _first_. Instead, bannings are now enforced first on and on a grand scale. Shouldn't it be other way around?

Why this critique: I haven't seen part of the decisions (Kiki-Jiki & Chain of Plasma) linked to the actual hard data: deck lists.
We all comprehend those and can test according to those. Provide the lists and the foreign HL communities will actually have a chance to verify help the German community also by playing and providing the results here, say, in form of MWS-league as we do now.

I am off to test.

Mythrandir

Quote from: pyyhttu on 06-07-2008, 02:38:40 PM
Why Painter's Servant, not Grindstone?
Why Cephalid Illusionist, not Hermit Druid?

Also: What's the policy with these anticipating, preventing bannings that seem to have been the trend lately (Flash, Kiki-Jiki, Chain of Plasma)? I can't find grounds for them from the official 5-point banning strategy at: http://highlandermagic.info/index.php?id=faq#4

It feels almost as if the committee is not giving the players a chance at all to react to the meta by evolving it and letting them to work things out _first_. Instead, bannings are now enforced first on and on a grand scale. Shouldn't it be other way around?

Why this critique: I haven't seen part of the decisions (Kiki-Jiki & Chain of Plasma) linked to the actual hard data: deck lists.
We all comprehend those and can test according to those. Provide the lists and the foreign HL communities will actually have a chance to verify help the German community also by playing and providing the results here, say, in form of MWS-league as we do now.

I am off to test.

well, i´m not a part of the team who bans these, but i think the servant VS grindstone i can understand.. the painter is the new card that enabled the combo. grindstone whithout it isnt a real menace, that way ppl are free to use grindstone in mill decks (not that i´ve seen one.. but..).
as for the others bannings i havent noticed/played a growth in ppl playing those decks. here in the league, i´ve only played against aggro decks, but i really understand why they would do this... a deck with two cards and 6 mana (play both cards and the grindstone ability) can jump to the combo and win.

perhaps (and this is my point of view) we dont play enough in order to see the dominating decks actually dominanting, if i were in an area where ppl played more and more often HL, i´d probably see more players using these decks. perhaps then we could understant better the  reasons for theses banning. this happened to me with flash+ hulk.. i never played versus a single flash-hulk deck in my life...

just my 2 cents

Vazdru

Quote from: pyyhttu on 06-07-2008, 02:38:40 PM
Why Painter's Servant, not Grindstone?

That's a hard question. In my opinion the decision to ban Servant instead of Grindstone has been wrong...but i think even if this is true it's an excusable mistake.

I'm worry about the "trend" much more. The banned list becomes longer and longer and due to this more and more obscure.

Why is Mystical Tutor banned but not Enlightened Tutor (7 of the Top 8 Decks have played Enlightened).

Why is Trinisphere banned but not Survival, Gifs Ungiven or life from the Loam (all of this cards could be a "Gamebreaker").

Why banning combos (PlasmaSwans, Kiki-Pestermite) never proved their power and allow others (winner of GP 4 played e.g. GuiltyStuffy).

It's hard to explain an "Outsider" the systematics of the banned list.

Anyhow i think the HL Committee doing a good job and always try to do best for the format. It impossible to please everybody but i think there might be even a better way like the actual course  ;D 

Far below the earth
Where the demons hunt the souls of those that sleep
In the city of the Vazdru and the Drin
Where the black flame burns inside the palace fountain.

pyyhttu

I've got some time for constructive criticism, let's begin:

Quote from: Vazdru
In my opinion the decision to ban Servant instead of Grindstone has been wrong...but i think even if this is true it's an excusable mistake.

Why do you think that? Was that just a gut based feeling? Interested to hear!

I can just speculate that the committee thought that Painter is just being played more in DCI sanctioned eternal formats than the stone, thus, then the Painter must be the correct choice to ban. The reality however is that no reason whatsoever has been given why it was Painter and not the stone.

I read yet again the announcement to make sure and babelfished on the same go. I got:

Quote from: magicplayer.orgPainter's Servant

Die auch aus anderen Formaten inzwischen bekannte zwei-Karten-Sieg-Kombo Painter's Servant / Grindstone, die mit 6 Mana einfach aus der Hand jederzeit das Spiel beendet, aber auch so einfach mal Turn drei gezündet werden kann, zudem in jedes Deck integrierbar ist, da beide Komboparts Artefakte sind, wird als zu einfach und auch zu stark empfunden und daher schicken wir den Painter's Servant in die ewigen Jagdgründe.

Quote from: Babelfish translation (edited readable)Painter's Servant

The two card victory combo Painter's Servant/Grindstone, found in other formats as well, terminates the game at any time with 6 mana by simply playing the components from the hand. It can be executed simply on turn three and is integrable into each deck since both combo parts are artifacts. As a too simple (kombo) and we very strongly felt to send the Painter's Servant into the eternal hunting (fields?).

Or did I screw up the translation completely? I also checked the comments from the raging thread (as I write this, it has 75 comments) from Sturmgott, Malz and Hajo regarding to that but nothing essential was found.

I want to say that ban decision here was absolutely right in overall, just giving the details why it was Servant and not the Grindstone elude me.

Quote from: VazdruWhy is Mystical Tutor banned but not Enlightened Tutor (7 of the Top 8 Decks have played Enlightened).

Why is Trinisphere banned but not Survival, Gifs Ungiven or life from the Loam (all of this cards could be a "Gamebreaker").

Good points, but with your permission I'll skip those arguments in order to avoid off-topic babble about past bannings and keep this concise by focusing on the current bannings.

Quote from: VazdruWhy banning combos (PlasmaSwans, Kiki-Pestermite) never proved their power and allow others (winner of GP 4 played e.g. GuiltyStuffy).

Exactly. Or could it be that these committeers actually know better to anticipate the next killer kombo which would *possibly* spoil the fun of game reverting the format back to HulkFlash match-ups? Hard to say as high-level documentation is in Deutsch nur, committee don't respond to mails and never bother to visit here and contribute in discussions. Why was the centralized discussion pursued anyway if they don't support it by themselves?

Hard situation for me to say at least but let's investigate more:

Quote from: magicplayer.orgChain of Plasma muss gehen, weil die Kombo mit Swans of Bryn Argoll zu gut ist. Nach unseren Tests verschiedener, relativ wenig getuneter Builds dieses Decks wird auch hier der Kombodominanz im Highlanderformat vorgebeugt. Da die Swans jedoch interessante Board-Interaktionen ergeben, die Chain hingegen stets nur der weitere Burnspell "3 für 2" ist, haben wir entschieden, den Schwan im Format zu erhalten.

Quote from: BabelfishChain of plasma must go, because the combo with Swans of Bryn Argoll is too good. After our diverse tests, relatively little getuneter Builds of this deck the Kombodominanz in the Highlanderformat one prevents also here. However, since the Swans result in interesting board interactions, chain however will always be only the one more "3 for 2" burn spell. We decided to leave the Swans in the format.

Babelfish miserably failed here and I can't make out with my German skills what was being said from that "getuneter"-word onward. But clear is that no deck lists have been linked to or backed up with any data. Just "diverse tests" were mentioned and ban for the Chains was the verdict. Swans was commented to "result in interesting board interactions" and that's it.

Maintaining format is fine, but interfering with it too much and hassling with players (we don't like it) in terms of pre-bans is something else. How the hell they know already without other players contribution that Swans or Kiki-Jiki is the next killer-combo that leads to non-interactive games?

Quote from: magicplayer.orgAls nächstbeste zwei-Karten-Kombo erschien uns Buried Alive / Reanimate, die mit Kiki-Jiki, Pestermite und Karmic Guide auch sofort das Spiel beendet durch infinite Pestermites mit Haste. Da zudem diese Kombo sogar monofarben baubar wäre, erschien uns das hinreichend bedrohlich, um hier vorzugreifen.

Quote from: magicplayer.orgAs the next-best two map Kombo Buried Alive/Reanimate, those appeared to us with Kiki Jiki, Pestermite and Karmic Guide also immediately the play terminated by infinite Pestermites with Haste. Besides, since this Kombo would be buildable even mono colors, that appeared to us sufficiently threateningly, in order to anticipate here.

"Besides, since this Kombo would be buildable even mono colors, that appeared to us sufficiently threateningly, in order to anticipate here."

Quote from: VazdruIt's hard to explain an "Outsider" the systematics of the banned list.

Is a player (me for example) after 4 years still considered as an outsider to the format, or do you use the word "outsider" linking it to a Magic player who stumbled upon the format and ban list just yesterday?

This may seem as nitpicking and clunging into semantics, but as Highlander is non-DCI, non-sanctioned, unofficial format _from_ the players _to_ the players, the ban decisions *have* to be transparent, well-argumented and most importantly, backed up with data in English so that the decisions can be actually tested by the masses in time.

So far what I've noticed, The banning rules surely need some revising and honing, or then the bannings are only enforced to the watch list candidates. That would actually give some time to the metagame to react as well.

Vazdru

#5
Quote from: pyyhttu on 07-07-2008, 11:40:28 PM
I've got some time for constructive criticism, let's begin:

Quote from: Vazdru
In my opinion the decision to ban Servant instead of Grindstone has been wrong...but i think even if this is true it's an excusable mistake.

Why do you think that? Was that just a gut based feeling? Interested to hear!


It's quite easy: they have to choose between Servant and Stone to destroy that two-card-combo. There are enough arguments for/against both cards, in the end it doesn't really matter which of them has to go. Servant is always some kind of combo-piece, Grindstone may be played in a Milldeck or something like that. I would have chosen Grindstone because I've never seen the stone in any competitive HL deck but that's just one of many opinions.

Quote from: pyyhttu on 07-07-2008, 11:40:28 PM

Quote from: VazdruIt's hard to explain an "Outsider" the systematics of the banned list.

Is a player (me for example) after 4 years still considered as an outsider to the format, or do you use the word "outsider" linking it to a Magic player who stumbled upon the format and ban list just yesterday?

This may seem as nitpicking and clunging into semantics, but as Highlander is non-DCI, non-sanctioned, unofficial format _from_ the players _to_ the players, the ban decisions *have* to be transparent, well-argumented and most importantly, backed up with data in English so that the decisions can be actually tested by the masses in time.

So far what I've noticed, The banning rules surely need some revising and honing, or then the bannings are only enforced to the watch list candidates. That would actually give some time to the metagame to react as well.

"outsider" - I've meant a person who comes in contact with HL (magicplayer.org) the very first time. He will have a look on the Banned-List and wonder... ??? :P


@ pyyhttu - a suggestion: copy&paste your postings to "comments" on mp.org (ger)  :) i think that way you'll maybe get some reactions (just add a link to this forum)
Far below the earth
Where the demons hunt the souls of those that sleep
In the city of the Vazdru and the Drin
Where the black flame burns inside the palace fountain.

pyyhttu

Quote from: Vazdrua suggestion: copy&paste your postings to "comments" on mp.org (ger)   i think that way you'll maybe get some reactions (just add a link to this forum)

Good suggestion. Done. (The admin have to accept my post there first).

Now, any reactions?

Vazdru

Quote from: pyyhttu on 08-07-2008, 03:27:02 PM
Quote from: Vazdrua suggestion: copy&paste your postings to "comments" on mp.org (ger)   i think that way you'll maybe get some reactions (just add a link to this forum)

Good suggestion. Done. (The admin have to accept my post there first).


I think you do not need a registration at magicplayer.org to use the comment functioning. Just leave your name and copy & paste.
Far below the earth
Where the demons hunt the souls of those that sleep
In the city of the Vazdru and the Drin
Where the black flame burns inside the palace fountain.

Vazdru

Hopefully we get any reactions now  ???

Comment # 80 (MY first one) @ http://www.magicplayer.org/index.php

Sorry for non-translating the following statement. Maybe I'll find a few min this weekend.



Vazdru sagte zum Thema "Sorry":

Wollte mich aus der Diskussion eigentlich raushalten, kann aber jetzt doch nicht mehr an mir halten. Teilweise kommt mir es so vor, als ob sich eine Art "Betriebsblindheit" eingeschlichen hätte. Zu behaupten Mystical Tutor sei schlecht und Enlightened Tutor gut für das Format finde ich einem halbwegs logisch denkenden Menschen nicht vermittelbar. Klar findet man immer Argumente für seine Entscheidungen .. früher sagte man halt Mystical würde TPS weiter verbessern und sei deshalb unerwünscht...und jetzt wo TPS keine Rolle spielt?, na ja jetzt wird halt was anderes herangezogen...genauso könnte man genügend Argumente finden, warum man Enlightened bannen sollte und Mystical nicht, z. B. Tier 1 ist Survival (Enchantment?), 7!! der Top 8 Decks des letzten GP spielten Enlightened, einfach die Argumente von Crusader 1:1 kopieren und in einen etwas anderen Kontext setzen, einfach mal anzuführen, dass die besten noch zugelassenen Kombos auf Enchantments und Artefakten basieren (GuiltStuffy wurde vom Sieger des 4. GP gespielt, sollte also nicht zu schlecht sein), selbst als Staxx und Staxx-Oath die dominanten Decktypen waren, wurde Enlightened nie thematisiert (Hallo? Logik?)...ich nehme schon lange die Bannings einfach hin und gut, andere Leute vom Für und Wider von Bannings und Unbannings zu überzeugen ist müssig und hat in meiner mittlerweile langjährigen Erfahrung nur in äußerst seltenen Fällen gefruchtet. Wahrscheinlich taucht in Kürze jemand hier auf und versucht mir aufzuzeigen, wie unrecht ich doch mit meinem Gesagten hätte ... und vielleicht auch zu recht ... Who knows?

Dass allerdings viele die aktuelle Banned-Liste nicht mehr ansatzweise verstehen und deshalb auch nicht vermitteln können, stelle ich immer wieder aufs Neue fest ( -> http://www.magicplayer.org/forum/index.php?topic=108.0). So würde gerne ein Bekannter aus Finnland das Format in seiner Heimat supporten kann aber seinen Freunden und den Turnierteilnehmern die Banned-List nicht vermitteln, wenn er sie selbst nicht versteht. ICH kann ihm da auch schwer weiterhelfen. Über ein wenig support von Seiten der "Verantwortlichen" würde er sich sicherlich freuen...Thx in advance :)

Macht weiter so !! :) Cya (-> http://www.magicplayer.org/forum/index.php?board=16.0)
Far below the earth
Where the demons hunt the souls of those that sleep
In the city of the Vazdru and the Drin
Where the black flame burns inside the palace fountain.

pyyhttu

#9
Thanks for your input on this, Vazdru.

I saw that my reply there requesting checking this thread wasn't even posted there (Excessive moderating or should I've been registered & logged in afterall)?

No matter, It's getting late and I'll try to donate some time for translation job next week as well.

Edit: Done: http://www.magicplayer.org/forum/index.php?topic=105.msg837#msg837