Main Menu

Banned List October 2014 feedback

Started by MMD, 17-10-2014, 02:21:08 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

MMD

OK, so I will cast the first stone even if I am not into actually playing with cards lately. So this is my theoretic approach on it:

True-Name Nemesis – seems OK, even if I think that Jitte has a similar power level. Both are oops I win cards in creature matchups.

Tolarian Academy – The power level of this card is just absurd. But as long as no deck shows up which breaks the metagame I cannot argue. Similar status than Yawgmoth´s Will IMO.

Mystical Tutor – This is where things went wrong IMO. Unbanning Mystic was the last piece of the puzzle to raise blue based control above the other deck strategies. With Cards like Entreat the Angels available you can even center your strategy on Mystical Tutor. I wonder why control decks do not play Merchant Scroll and Mystical Teachings as standard setup.

The best cards in the format can be played in one deck strategy. Mana Drain, Demonic Tutor, Mystical Tutor, Enlightened Tutor, Jace the Mindsculptor, Brainstorm, Sensei, Divining Top, (Tolarian Academy), (Yawgmoth´s Will) and even splashing Oath of Druids if you want. Perhaps Dig through Time is even another card which comes into this elite circle (not played with it yet). The only question for me is if an UWb(x) Control or Tezzerator deck will win the next HL Cup.

Entomb – Not sure about that. Creates no-brainer games like Oath of Druids does. I would not allow both if I could choose.

Fastbond – Niche application with a huge payout like Tolarian Academy and Yawgmoths Will. It is worth a test IMO

Gifts Ungiven – I am happy that the council thinks that this card does not belong in our format any more. I would love to play with it but I think it will just create silly decks together with the above mentioned power cards.

Natural Order – Perhaps this is not a must ban but I have to cut 2 cards in all green based deck. Natural Order for Primeval Titan is just a no-brainer and must play for me. I don´t see the use of unbanning it again.

Stoneforge Mystic – same as NO. I will just put this guy in every white deck available. But this goes even further. I expect that I could even center my strategy on it in midrange decks as there are a lot more creature tutors out.

Btw, I am still missing to see Imperial Seal on the watch list for unbannings. Don´t see that this is any better than the other tutors around.

The same goes for Demonic Tutor, Mana Drain, Enlightened Tutor, Jace the Mindsculptor and Oath of Druids. Not that I want them to go now but everyone taking a look on the HL rules should now that these cards are on the borderline regarding the allowed power level.


Feel free to browse through my MKM account:

http://www.magickartenmarkt.de/index.php?mainPage=showSellerChart&idInfoUser=13199

I also have a huge amount of chinese and japanese foil HL staples not listed yet,  which I would like to downgrade to english foil. Just let me know!

Vazdru

#1
@ MMD

+1
I agree with almost everythin you've said
call me your voice in the council  ;)

...but unfortunately it isn't like in former times when Sturmgott made the decisions (almost) alone...so it's just 1/6 voice of the council ...  ;D

...
and for all who doesn't know me...

...that was just kidding obviously - I'm quite happy we have a council and I do not to have to make the decisions by my own ... better 4 u anyway  ;-)
Far below the earth
Where the demons hunt the souls of those that sleep
In the city of the Vazdru and the Drin
Where the black flame burns inside the palace fountain.

tonytahiti

this small font thing you are doing is not only really weird but also very unnecessary. speak up and speak clearly if you got to say something, i dont want to get a magnifying glass everytime you say something.
Winner - Pro HL Cup, Prague 2002
Winner - Highlander Regional Masters, Phuket 2006
Winner - Sunrise Trophy Run, Hawaii 2006
Winner - North Dakota HL Championships 2007
Winner - Tahiti "One And Only"-Cup #3, 2009
Winner - Gio di Gio Seria, Florenz, 2016
Winner - Jail or be Jailed, Berlin, 2017

Vazdru

#3
Quote from: tonytahiti on 18-10-2014, 09:08:01 PM
this small font thing you are doing is not only really weird but also very unnecessary. speak up and speak clearly if you got to say something, i dont want to get a magnifying glass everytime you say something.

indeed - you are absolutely right!
thanks for this piece of advice

i guess this small font thing is almost as unnecessary as your post (and mine) - I try to avoid it in the future!
Far below the earth
Where the demons hunt the souls of those that sleep
In the city of the Vazdru and the Drin
Where the black flame burns inside the palace fountain.

Kenshin

#4
Mystical Tutor: It basically is a 2nd copy of your best spell at the expense of discarding an additional card. The problem is that there are game-ending instants and sorceries (especially problematic: Price of Progress) which are worth the card disadvantage. Who cares if you have one less card, if your opponent is already dead. Terminus and Entreat the Angels did not convince me. Both cards are hilariously bad when in your hand early or drawn at a bad time. The thing happening the most is my opponent getting price and then "punishing" me for greedily having 4 non basics out of 10 lands... I dislike the unbanning.

Gifts Ungiven, Stoneforge Mystic, Natural Order: No... please no... Unlike other cards of that category, they do not require you to bend your decklist. You would play redundant spells, Batterskull or Green Creatures and Titan anyway. Having those "oops, I just won!"-buttons in a deck comes at virtually no cost. They are good in almost any stage of the game and allow for the creation of gamestates where one cheap spell creates a problem so big that it can only be solved by investing multiple cards and a lot more mana. They either are against the idea behind highlander times four (Gifts), are a two mana gamewin engine or a four mana cardadvantage and boardpresence machine. Just brutal and lame cards that are almost impossible to play around or outrace. TNN is in almost every regard a worse card.

There is a ton of pretty retarded cards out there. For me the question is wether or not it can be handled by various decks through various means. TNN seems okay to me. It is a silly card and pushed beyond belief but it still is easily beaten most of the time I see it in play. The decks just adapted. There are other crazy cards that most decks are absolutely incapable of handling even with changes. It is always hard to draw the line, but you have to draw it somewhere. And to me TNN is at the fringe of what is acceptable and I would not be sad to see it go but the cards mentioned above are just so game-breaking, that I would be really displeased to see them back in our format.

tonytahiti

#5
nemesis is very clearly a better card in highlander than stoneforge. stoneforge was never a problem in some local metas and people there were super suprised it got banned in the first place. its good but it also means you have to play at least 2 equipment (you dont want your stoneforge to be a squire when you draw the one equipment first naturally) which means you gotta play batterskull + 1..that +1 in most midrange decks can be super awkward on opening hand and is only being put in FOR and BECAUSE OF stoneforge. its a sacrifice you make and a sacrifice that can actually cost you games.

nemesis needs absolutely no build around, you just throw it into any blue deck with creatures. when cast turn 3 on the play very often runs away with the game. the rest of your hand only needs to be decent to ride nemesis to victory. stoneforge means you spend turn three putting it in (if stoneforge gets bolted then you basically have no relevant board) and you can easily lose to some tempo deck or tempo draw by some midrange deck. just my thoughts.

ps: to use a tutor (i guess wordly turn one you mean) to get stoneforge is, especially on the draw, an absolute huge liability. turn one you do nothing, turn two you play a squire, turn three you vial that equipment in..this start is super weak against a good aggro draw, turn 1 creature, turn 2 creature,  turn 3 removal on stoneforge (or even his turn 4 when he didnt get batterskull in response to equip) - the stoneforge deck basically loses to the 4 drop there, you did nothing relevant to the board and you need a sweeper right then and there. If that kind of strategy is build around and too strong for your local meta..i mean..its really not that strong vs alot of opening hands.
Winner - Pro HL Cup, Prague 2002
Winner - Highlander Regional Masters, Phuket 2006
Winner - Sunrise Trophy Run, Hawaii 2006
Winner - North Dakota HL Championships 2007
Winner - Tahiti "One And Only"-Cup #3, 2009
Winner - Gio di Gio Seria, Florenz, 2016
Winner - Jail or be Jailed, Berlin, 2017

ChristophO

#6
Thank you everyone for their feedback (and I would vermy much like to read more from other players as well even it might be similiar to feedback/opinions already made. I would like to comment on a couple of things and tell everyone how I voted in the council and why I made my choices like I did.

Comments first:
@MMD
Entomb - I also fear the dread of T2 Griselbrand being reanimated again and again.
Oath - Agree Oath is very borderline. I like that it is a card that restricts the player on creature choices (like Acadamy and maybe Fastbond).
Imperial Seal - The card is one of several cards that has been discussed in the council. I personally would not vote for its unbanning right now.
Jitte - I disagree on your Jitte comment. Jitte is far more powerful than TNN. You can not race it/overwhelm it. Jitte gains life and kills creatrues wehter you block or not. With TNN it is easier to pick your poison. 

@Kenshin
Mystical - Demonic also fetches all the non miracle spells in the mid and late game. Do you feel that Mystical is a specific problem because it is blue
and therefore better fits into decks like UR Aggro Control when comparing with other?
Ooops I win spells - There are a LOT of oops I win spells in the format. I agree on that but that is also the nature of MTG formats with a big cardpool when you spend more than two or three mana. That said I feel Natural Order is just too cheap for the effect and Gifts Ungiven is broken in HL the same way Pod was because the card just offers so many more options than it would in normal 60 card deck with lots of 4 ofs. Stoneforge/TNN see tonytahiti.

@Tony:
Apearantly we have very different experience with Stoneforge/TNN. This is how I see it:
Stoneforge and TNN are very different cards. Stoneforge creates card advantage because it tutors for a high quality card. Please take note that many decks like to play Batterskull and/or other equipment. TNN creates virtual card advantage because it blanks most removal and outclasses most creatures at the same time. Depending on the Matchup/Meta/Game Situation one or the other can be better. That said, Stoneforge is 2 mana only which completely invalidates a direct comparision because of the inferior mana cost. Just think about Tarmogoyf2 costing GG1 instead of G1 like the original does.  
Regarding the tempo discussion Stoneforge is extremely hard to answer mana and card neutral In the following I will discuss the typical turn 2 Stoneforge fetch Batterskull play. If you (can) immediately kill the Stoneforge  you need to spend mana when you have very little of it - turn 2 or 3 depending on who started. If you have a removal for one mana and a second spell for 1/2 the opponent can gain a small tempo advantage at the cost of a card which often happens to be very strong to catch up (Batterskull) due to the lifelink + vigiliance. Please take note that the Bolt + follow up play could also have created Tempo against every other two drop creature without the opponent getting an extra Batterskull out of it. Now, if you have an instant kill spell for the germ or the Batterskull itself you could also wait for the vial effect and kill it directly in the combat step. There are not a lot of cheap cards that do this. Examples would be StP/Path/Vapor Snag/Dismember for the token and Putrefy; Wear//Tear for the artifact. In either case you need to spend mana that could also be used to cast further threats. Again, If you have a good follow up threat that makes you use your mana you get out ahead Tempo wise but not by much. If the Stoneforge player also has a one mana removal and/or some good 4 drop you will not win before T5 comes around and Batterskull is live again. You need to have a very busted draw of efficient threats and your best removal to rush through a Stoneforge Mystic. When Stoneforge and the Spoils mulligan was still around I played a lot of Pattern Rector to great sucess with Stoneforge where all of this happened routinely. Stoneforge gets you a great card and drains the tempo out of the opponents draw because he has to cast removal instead of threats which enables the Batterskull even more.
This is why I am strongly against unbanning Stoneforge Mystic because it is so deveastating to most aggro starts. And aggro is the archetype with the biggest troubles right now because there is a lack of good one and two drops in the appropriate numbers for creature based aggro decks. Mono Red burn is fine obv.

My votes:
Unban: Nothing of the watch list.
Ban: Still unsure about wether Mystical is too powerful. I feel banning Mystical but leaving Demonic feels strange Demonic being the more powerful card. I also feel the weakest tutor still being banned is Entomb and I just dislike 2 card you win/lose the game combos on turn 2. T3 and later is fine because it opens up enough avenues to interact. This is also why I hate to have Trinisphere + Workshop in the format but I seem to be the only one...  

Kenshin

@ChristophO: Yes, I think the main Problem is, that it is blue. Black is not the best highlander color at the moment (I think) but Demonic is a strong incentive to splash. It usually is the superior card with the exception being the miracles. And the fact that you can Tutor for U at the end of the opponents turn. So a Spell costs its mana cost and not 1B + mana cost.
The only real problem I have with Mystical is that it gives UR a virtual 2nd copy of Price of Progress. A card that in my opinion is really broken. Early it wipes planeswalkers with 4+ loalty for just 1R and later it wins games, even if you have a basic heavy manabase with a few nonbasics. A manabase like that lets you almost ignore Back to Basics or Blood Moon effects. But Price of Progress still kills you because it usually hits for more than 6 and ends the game on the spot, while the other nonbasic hosers at least leave you with some room to wiggle.

I personally would like to see the Price on the watchlist. It is a card that causes such huge gameswings, it seems brutally unfair to me, especially for its casting cost. The reason it is not banned or on the watchlist is, that like many powerful non-permanent spells, it does not sit around on the battlefield, being a visible nuisance over several turns, but hits hard and then is put away to the graveyard. I personally have lost so many games I could not have lost to any other card (especially at that mana cost) to a timely price, even with enough artifact mana and basics to fight through any other form of nonbasic hate, that I came to the conclusion that this card is straight out broken.

Ball.Lightning

#8
TNN: it is certainly very powerfull creature. I think it is stronger in decks, that accualy want to see it atacking. T2-T3 TNN with almost any follow up is almost gg. Good thing is that control decks use TNN usually as better wall, so there is time to breathe. If TNN gets equiped or is followed by any 4cc creature it is almost GG, which I don't like. There is still not enough answers to it. In my eyes TNN>Stoneforge. In our meta is blue midrange underplayed, so I dont see it as too problematic card. No ban.

Mystical T.: I see great fear of MT fetching Price of Progres. It has never happened to me though. Mystical is usually fetching some miracle spell (usually Terminus or Entreet). Which I find quite backbreaking and hard to play around. While POP is played in UR builds it is played mainly in agro decks. Introducing MT did not led to new combodecks. Combo is still nonexisting in our format, it has made control better. I would not ban it now. Format need still time to evolve. With new control goodies (Dig through time or Treasure Hunt, it might be too much) We will see. If meta turns into only blue controldecks, I would ban it then.

Btw. if you want to fetch POP - use Muddle to Mixture! ;-)

Stoneforge: I think it is safe to unban. It should not have been banned in the first place. I tend to play agro now, but equips are not the greatest cards in the deck. There is quite a preasure to play artifacts hosers due to Academy plus format is full of removal, that swords can end up useless (TNN, Maze, Wraths..). With bigger availability of PWs even for agro it is not necessary to play equipments. Stoneforge would probably change that, which is not necessarily bad thing. The only problem I see here is more situations that lead to TNN+equipment.

Order: Do not unban. It would push some decks over the top.

Last word: Unban Imperial seal. For those, who claim that it have to stay banned. Write here what WORST cards it could fetch. It would not probably be used in control, because of the life loss and the fact it tutors just on top. Cards aside from combo usage, that might end up beeing searched for are probably Tolarian Academy or Oath of Druid. Whitch is still not that insane after all. If someone use this for Stoneforge, I would laugh :-)

tonytahiti

i agree. i am really suprised that the equipment-package you need to play for stoneforge is rarely being used as an argument. in legacy you play 4 stoneforge and 1-2 batterskulls, which means you are 4 or 2 times as likely to draw stoneforge than batterskull which is so different to highlander where its 50/50 to draw stoneforge or batterskull naturally (tutors excluded, call on stoneforge or worldy on stoneforge is not that insane of a play). in legacy you play more stoneforge than equipment, in highlander it is the opposite, THAT MAKES A HUGE DIFFERENCE. stoneforge is not "oh it goes in every white deck without any loss, booh"..you will draw the skull and you will draw the sofi and alot of decks havent played those cards before. batterskull is slow (especially for naya decks) and sofi can be super clunky. i do think stoneforge ban needs a new evaluation. here in berlin nobody had a problem with stoneforge (maybe "a berlin thing") and i heard the same about other cities. the ban felt rushed.
Winner - Pro HL Cup, Prague 2002
Winner - Highlander Regional Masters, Phuket 2006
Winner - Sunrise Trophy Run, Hawaii 2006
Winner - North Dakota HL Championships 2007
Winner - Tahiti "One And Only"-Cup #3, 2009
Winner - Gio di Gio Seria, Florenz, 2016
Winner - Jail or be Jailed, Berlin, 2017

MMD

#10
@tonytahiti:

"Very clear" as playing Chain of Vapor?  ;)

In midrange decks it will be most probably Batterskull and SoFaI which you play along with Stoneforge Mystic. I do not see it a liability to play SoFaI in any creature based deck, in fact there are situations where I use Enlightened Tutor to get it. Drawing one of these equipment's naturally is no liability for me either as they are both strong enough on their own. I have won many games not although but because of an equipped mana dork or a hardcast Batterskull. I still play SoFaI in nearly all creature decks and Batterskull in most control shells, even without Stoneforge Mystic available. Both are certainly clunky but there should be something in your hand to interact with your opponent before you hit five Mana, otherwise I would question your keep. Having the second equipment on hand with an active Stoneforge can even be very nice. Paired with any hexproof/protected creature he will be a force not speaking about the devastating situation when you have Stoneforge AND TNN. Certainly in white aggro decks you should think about cutting Batterskull but also playing one of the others swords (at least SoWaP) is not a mistake IMO.

He will be even "splashed" in creature less UWx builds to get either Batterskull or Sword of the Meek which cannot be said for TNN.

Center a strategy didn´t meant to play bad tutors or "waste" a 1st turn Worldly Tutor but he will definitely be the main target for Eladamri´s Call and Fauna Shaman as he simply brings the most value for many game states due to his cheapness. The rest of the statement could be copied from ChristophO´s post...

@ ChristophO:

Comparing cards is always very hard to do. Either side can argue with a good reason from either position.  Jitte is perhaps even better in creature matchups but TNN always threatens Planeswalkers and has an immediate effect on a board which has creatures on it. Also it is very unlikely that you waste mana into casting TNN which is very possible while equipping Jitte. Also I would better draw TNN as Jitte against control decks in general. A clear advantage is certainly that Jitte is colourless and would go into any creature deck, so I can really understand its ban. So TNN is very borderline for me and I wouldn´t raise my eyebrows if TNN would be banned in future. I see all three cards on a similar power level, but they are certainly very different on their own and have differently strengths in different situations.

Regarding Imperaial seal I don´t want to give up. I request to receive a statement from the council why Imperial Seal is banned. IMO Seal exclusively improves combo strategies. Combo is nearly non-existent in HL and could need some help from the banned list. So what are the council´s restrictions? Having Demonic/Mystical allowed and this on the banned list is simply causeless.


Feel free to browse through my MKM account:

http://www.magickartenmarkt.de/index.php?mainPage=showSellerChart&idInfoUser=13199

I also have a huge amount of chinese and japanese foil HL staples not listed yet,  which I would like to downgrade to english foil. Just let me know!

pyyhttu

Quote from: MMDI request to receive a statement from the council why Imperial Seal is banned.

It's too expensive. Once Wizards reprints it as a judge foil, then sure.

Alternatively, if majority of the players think that price point shouldn't be used as an argument, then sure, it can also be unbanned.

But then logical follow-up measure would be that all IE & CE cards will also be banned.

MMD

#12
Quote from: pyyhttu on 20-10-2014, 06:53:45 PM
Quote from: MMDI request to receive a statement from the council why Imperial Seal is banned.

It's too expensive. Once Wizards reprints it as a judge foil, then sure.

Alternatively, if majority of the players think that price point shouldn't be used as an argument, then sure, it can also be unbanned.

But then logical follow-up measure would be that all IE & CE cards will also be banned.

You know what questions will follow:

What about the Workshop/Tabernacle argument? The price tag is the same.
Why is an unban of Imperial Seal connected to IE/CE bannings in this context?

I have no problem when the community says "NO" due to the financial aspect but than you should communicate a critical value and take the others out as well.
Feel free to browse through my MKM account:

http://www.magickartenmarkt.de/index.php?mainPage=showSellerChart&idInfoUser=13199

I also have a huge amount of chinese and japanese foil HL staples not listed yet,  which I would like to downgrade to english foil. Just let me know!

Maqi

The thing with Imperial Seal is this:

1.) It is outrageously expensive. Last time I checked there were only 29 items for sale on magickartenmarkt.de. Last selling price is about 325 € (which is in the same league as Mishra's Workshop or The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale).
2.) It is an automatic inclusion in any Oath deck and in almost any combo deck, which will lead to a sharp rise in demand. My estimation is, the price will at least shoot to somewhere around 430-450 € after a very short while. That price tag is a considerable amount higher than what you have to pay for basically every other high end card in the format. The likelyhood of it being sold out at a reasonable price for a relatively long time is quite high.
3.) People will be frustrated either because they cannot afford the card or because they have to spend so much cash to get it in order to not having to to play suboptimal lists (which feels super horrible).
4.) The card enables broken t2 stuff, which is always dangerous (the most obivous case is Oath of Druids, of which it is basically another copy) and might result in a re-ban of the card, which will make people feel even worse.
5.) In the case of a re-ban, people will have problems to sell the card again because it is not played anywhere sans Commander. It is even banned in DuelCommander. In the end, that money spent could very likely be gone for good.
6.) There is very little emotional investment in the card. What I mean by this is, cards like Bazaar of Baghdad or Mishra's Workshop or Tabernacle provide some kind of unique effect, that no other card copies or mimics to an entent that feels quite the same. I can understand somebody that is attached to these cards. Imperial Seal though is "just" a tutor. It won't have a lasting effect on the game (since it is placed in the bin immediately) and won't make itself noticed after it has resolved. My point is, what do we add to the game by unbanning this? The inherent fun/play value of the card is quite low.
7.) The only positive merit of unbanning Imperial Seal would be to strengthen the combo archetype. I doubt however that this alone would suffice to make something like storm.dec for example viable. In the face of modern day Magic card design, combo will have a hard time going forward with or without Imperial Seal. However, the more cards à la Jeskai Ascendancy are being printed, the brighter combo's future may look.
8.) This leads me to the other already mentioned  high priced cards in our format (Bazaar of Baghdad, Workshop etc.). Now, here is the important sentence: If they were banned, I doubt we would unban them. However, things are as they are and as of today those cards have been unbanned for a very long time. Players have had time to adapt to the fact that they exist in the format. They could have set aside aside money bit by bit to buy those cards (as I did) and can be relatively sure that they are here to stay. Otherwise, they would still have the option of selling them at about the same price they paid to acquire those cards (because they are "live" in other formats as well).
9.) That being said, in a perfect world price should not be a factor for banning/unbanning. The world is not perfect whatsoever. People have limited budgets, expected gains or merits of unbanning cards vary, our player base is small, entry barriers are already high etc.
10.) Everybody that wants Imperial Seal unbanned should write letters to WotC and convince them to reprint it in a From the Vault expansion.

I hope this makes sense to you. Let me add that this is my line of argumentation and my reasoning to have voted against an unban and I do not speak for the council as a whole.

MMD

Your line of argumentation makes sense to me. Just my two cents on that:

Exchanging Imperial Seal with Oath of Druids in the banned list to keep combos alive and take out THE "most frustrating hard to deal with no brainer oops I win" two drop looks as it would be an improvement of the format in a perfect world disregarding price and availability. IMO Oath of Druids should be banned due to power level and unfun reasons anyway.

I was simply not aware that fun/frustration, emotion and price tag/development are official valid arguments for the council. Actually I appreciate that the council takes care about these "soft factors" as in the end this is still a fun niche format. I´ll go to contact WotC for a Judge Promo, then  ;)

P.S.: Perhaps Kenshin is right as the description of THE "most frustrating hard to deal with no brainer oops I win" two drop also fits to Price of Progess...
Feel free to browse through my MKM account:

http://www.magickartenmarkt.de/index.php?mainPage=showSellerChart&idInfoUser=13199

I also have a huge amount of chinese and japanese foil HL staples not listed yet,  which I would like to downgrade to english foil. Just let me know!