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Author Topic: Chain of Vapor and meta in Berlin    (Read 8683 times)
tonytahiti
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« Reply #15 on: 10-10-2014, 12:17:53 PM »

mmd, you seem to be getting emotional and tell me about my wrong doings instead of staying on topic. you say you dont care but your whole posts screams that you care alot. the -16 karma guy tells me how to find acceptance in the community, come on, we are not in 5th grade, its not always about acceptance, this is not some mafia clan family.

and you say "as it sees obviously no play otuside of combo". the last magiccardmarket tournament in erfurt (32 players or something) had two non combo decks in the final (one has splinter twincombo in the deck but is not a combo deck really). both finalists play chain of vapor. i dont know why you say that. doing research first helps.

christophoh: i agree, that he could have bounced his nemesis and his play wasnt optimal (the card can be a little confusing to players). but there are lots of scenarios similar to that where bouncing your creature in response to removal and then saccing a land to bounce theirs creates totally different gamestates for one blue, which is worth mentioning.
« Last Edit: 10-10-2014, 12:36:47 PM by tonytahiti » Logged

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Tabris
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« Reply #16 on: 10-10-2014, 01:27:07 PM »

Beneficial chain scenarios are not rare and its not even close to magical christmas wonderland its more like the staple district which is a suburb of value city.
Imagine a card which could do the following things: bolt, stp, stone rain, fog, ancestral recall, faiths shield or boomerang. What would you say should be the mana cost of that card 6,5,4? How about ONE FUCKING BLUE MANA?

Comparing chain with 4 mana bounce spells shows that you are very misled in thinking that card is a bounce spell in some kind but really its not it is all the things above and even more. Cyclonic rift is not even close to playable. Maybe in some Tier 3,452 staxx decks which will lose more games to the "you cant bounce your own stuff"clause than winning games with the 7 mana mode.

Besides saying you can evaluate a card because you know the rules text is a weak approach since we all know that feeling to discover sleeper cards which came to light simply seeing them in action. (Esp. in our format were we have so many interactions and no one can predict every outcome)

Now I get that you are all upset beceause it looks like Tonytahiti is saying: Berlin > all but hes not. He simply wanted to show you guys that we encountered many players from other cities and regions which thought chain is some kind of random card or even worse a bad card. I remember a time with another berlin-export card, sulfur elemental, were players said: "what a random "hate" card" and didnt realize what role that card fulfils. Same thing with scryb ranger which I promoted in 2009 in my UG and a lot of people said "what a bad card" simply beceause they overlooked the wide range of applications it provided.

I dont want to waste your and my time by presenting dozens of scenarios were chain shines. Trust me when I say the + side overweights the - side by A LOT like not even close.

Btw we dont say you should play the card because we do but because its correct to play it Wink
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MMD
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« Reply #17 on: 10-10-2014, 02:24:26 PM »

mmd, you seem to be getting emotional and tell me about my wrong doings instead of staying on topic. you say you dont care but your whole posts screams that you care alot. the -16 karma guy tells me how to find acceptance in the community, come on, we are not in 5th grade, its not always about acceptance, this is not some mafia clan family.

and you say "as it sees obviously no play otuside of combo". the last magiccardmarket tournament in erfurt (32 players or something) had two non combo decks in the final (one has splinter twincombo in the deck but is not a combo deck really). both finalists play chain of vapor. i dont know why you say that. doing research first helps.

OK, so I am off topic. So what is the topic then? “Chain of Vapor is the best tech ever and I want my credit for it but I could cry that nobody cares except some of my hometown buddies which made the 1st and 2nd place in a 30 person tournament with my tech”?

I can assure you that I really don´t care about this. I care that some guys from Berlin post like they are superior to the rest of the community.

Regarding your Karma “argument”: The negative Karma on this account is more or less completely from the “Spoils party” during the mulligan discussion. As always, people out of arguments threaten to start a world war or hit a “bad karma button”.
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« Reply #18 on: 10-10-2014, 04:48:33 PM »

@tonytahiti: Cut the weak ad hominem arguments. What rubs me the wrong way is that the quintessence of your posts is: "I am so smart. I found a card that is awesome. I convinced others that is awesome. You are stupid because you do not agree that it is awesome. I want my credit for being awesome!"

Instead of a discussion you started a chain of vapor circlejerk. And what bothers me the most is, it does not even have anything to do with the topic that reporting decklists is beneficial or not. What you say is "People read my few decklists, they are not impressed enough. Because they do not drop everything and do as I do, sharing deck lists has no point." That is just plain silly. Sharing Decklists is not sharing absolute truths but inspirations.

I can come up with realistic examples how certain cards just flat out won games too. Does it make playing them correct in every circumstance? I think not.
Two overexaggerated examples:

1) My opponent has one life, no cards in hand, only lands in play. I play Squire. My opponent draws a land and plays it. I attack for one and win. Your opponent having one life and drawing dead is not uncommon.
2) I have six cards in hand, 10 life and my opponent attacks with Stormbreath Dragon. He activates Monstrosity. I play One with Nothing. Next turn I attack with my Creeping Tar Pit for lethal damage. Stormbreath Dragon is a card that is played in some decks. So it is not an unrealistic example.

And I could add scenarios where opponents straight up misplay, like you did with the player who played Shriekmaw without necessity and then did not bounce his own TNN. That does not make the card great but your opponents screw up devastating.

What is relevant is not, what this card does, when it shines, but what it usually does. And I have my reasonable doubts, that it is as good as you want to make it seem.
Strangely enough Cyclonic Rift does for me, what Chain of Vapor seems to do for you. Normally it is an okay card but sometimes it just flat-out wins games. It is only playable in control decks where you realistically hit 7 Mana in most of the games. But it does make for great comebacks/resets.

Some cards are obviously best in slot (Mana drain, Demonic Tutor, True Name Nemesis) while other cards are debatable. You claim that Chain of Vapor is such a best in slot card. While it is obviously great in clutch tempo matches and has added benefits making it a solid card, I just can not see, given your deck has another plan/enough mana to cast spells for more than one blue, why it should be one such card.
« Last Edit: 10-10-2014, 04:52:20 PM by Kenshin » Logged
SirGalahad
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« Reply #19 on: 24-10-2014, 02:52:02 PM »

Having played a lot of games with Chain of Vapor in my Breakfast-deck i cannot understand the hype about this card. Even in a combo-shell i sometimes hated the card because of it's drawback and had to play around it alot.
And i'm not willing to believe there are so many benefitial situations for chain where it's not only a normal bounce-spell with a slight drawback for less mana. I tested the card for different decks, like UGBw-Richter and UR, and was never satified with it.

And for the discussion about publishing decklist: I copied Jonnys decklist from Erfurt, tested it and had the cards sleeved out two evenings later as the deck wasn't fitting my playstyle and i didn't like many of the cardchoices.
The problem here isn't people not using the data you publish, but people seeing your decks, testing them and dismissing them. Or get inspired by them. But you cannot estimate people just copying your decks without question.
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pyyhttu
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« Reply #20 on: 24-10-2014, 04:42:21 PM »

Quote from: SirGalahad
Having played a lot of games with Chain of Vapor in my Breakfast-deck i cannot understand the hype about this card. Even in a combo-shell i sometimes hated the card because of it's drawback and had to play around it alot.

That's probably because Chain of Vapor was in a wrong shell, especially if you use Hermit Druid in your Cephalid-combo. I guess you noticed getting into situations in which you couldn't use Chain of Vapor since it would let your opponent to bounce your combo outlet too?

Chain of Vapor has its uses, and they are specific. Everyone of us are blind to certain degree to the card choices we make, especially when they are pet cards.I've been known to jam Crop Rotation in to every deck that runs green, and come to learn it's not always correct thing to do.
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ZeSword
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« Reply #21 on: 17-12-2014, 04:57:32 PM »

In fact your debate is really interesting, and can be summed up in a more global debate :

* When building, is there a "theoretical best" deck (in a given metagame, of course) or is there only a "personal best" deck, which is only suited to you ?

Sam Black thinks it's relative to you. You like your cards, you do well with them :
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27628_Make-The-Right-Play-For-You.html

Craig Wescoe thinks there is a best deck, and you should adapt to play it well :
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=11578

I believe that it's relative to you. For example I really hate Hymn to Tourach in Abzhan tempo, because for me the deck is all about destroying the mana base, and if you destroy the manabase of your opponent he can't play his spells, so there is no need to discard him for two manas and doing nothing else (you're playing aggro, you need to build your board presence !). Usually noone agrees with me, but when I do have that card in hand, it never does magical things. Either I prefer playing something else on turn2, and then on turn3 my opponent has nothing interesting left in hand, either i play it and discard cards I don't care...

So everyone should play cards he likes, be good with them, and be happy ! :p

For Chain of Vapor, I don't know if in Highlander Aluren is a viable choice, but I've been playing Aluren in Legacy for quite a long time, and it was one of my best cards. I have Aluren on the board, so 4 lands, and bouncing 5 times my creatures makes me win every time I do it !
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MMD
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« Reply #22 on: 18-12-2014, 06:40:55 AM »

I agree that playing "your pet deck" helps to win, mostly because you have the most experience with. I doubt that playing "your cards" is helpful as the card does what it does, certainly in regards to the deck strategy/design.

For me: I will most probably be more successful on tournaments if I would play Bant all the time, but an old pet card like Stonecloaker will most probably lower the power level of the deck and is not the best choice. I can also write heroic stories what Stonecloaker did for me in the past but in the end the card is to borderline to be a staple. Certainly if you have a meta full of Reanimators he will be set again.

Another aspect is that pet decks tend to disregard basis rules of successul deck design. Playing GG/UU/WW in Bant is obsolete IMO with the new mulligan and should be reduced to UGw or GWu. Having Courser, Counterspell and Hero of Bladehold in the same deck might look like a good idea for "your pet deck" on paper but is not the best idea if you want to have the best Bant tournament deck as you will very often not be able to play Counter/Courser/Hero in T2-4.
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« Reply #23 on: 18-12-2014, 01:08:09 PM »

I wasn't talking about "pet deck" which is, I think, a bad choice in general in big events (but a good choice in general in small events).

I was really in the "card that works for me" situation. For ex. I play darkblast in the sideboard of Robots in Modern, and it's one of the best cards for me (made me a few dollars @ GP Lyon), even though nobody plays it. I just like this card a lot, and I'm able to make situations in which it just win games. For ex. :

* Darkblast + Canonist => gg against Infect.
* Darkblast + Tarmo battle => gg.
* Darkblast @ upkeep, dredge, Darkblast => kills your x/2 and you maybe didn't see it coming.
* Darkblast + Delve...

This is a card in which I believe, and which passes the cut in most cases (well, it doesn't pass the cut in Duel Commander because the metagame is too control and it's a dead card in too much cases). Still, I see that this conviction is not very well shared by others. I don't care, it works for me Shocked)

When you like a card, it's not a problem when you draw it at the wrong time. When you don't like a card, and you draw it at a bad timing, you'll be psychologically tilted. It makes a whole lot of difference, because Magic has its psycho side I think.
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Maqi
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« Reply #24 on: 18-12-2014, 01:37:42 PM »

My two cents:

a) Playing a card that is objectively bad just because you like it = not a good idea
b) Not playing a card that is objectively good (and should be in your deck because of power-level or because it strategically belongs there) just because you dislike it = not a good idea
c) Playing an objectively good card over a different objectively good card because of preference = sure, why not

To elaborate on c): It is not always evident which card is the better card overall when comparing 2 or more cards that could go into a specific slot. It is often times meta-dependent and cannot be perfectly assessed by any means available to us.

Your Darkblast slot is a perfect example of this. The card is obviously very good in some scenarios and rather bad in others (therefore it is a sideboard card in the first place). Now, Darkblast won't be as efficient as Dismember e.g. in the Twin-matchup.

I feel these "weigh-against-another-option-decisions" have become more frequent in modern day Magic, because the cards being printed currently don't differ as much in relative power level than those from eras longer ago.
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ZeSword
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« Reply #25 on: 18-12-2014, 03:51:34 PM »

* your a) occurs a lot of times, sure, we all agree there are cards which are really bad, because it's easy to find strictly superior ones (even if I just love the drawing of Bear Cub, I won't play it)

* your b) is tricky, because there is the manabase issue, the metagame issue, etc. which, for me, don't allow much cards in the "objectively good" pot. Take Brainstorm for example, guys will tell "omg just play it if you play blue". Well, maybe not if I can't play a lot of shufflers. I don't think there are much cards which are auto-include. Even basic lands for example are not auto include (in Duel Commander I play Abzhan with only one basic - ok I play many elves)

* your c) is what happens most of the time, and was my point. I'm really saying that it's relative. I prefer playing a card I believe in rather than a card I see in many decks, and that never made me think when I saw it in a match "wow, what a play, I like it !"
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Maqi
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« Reply #26 on: 18-12-2014, 05:17:49 PM »

@ b) True, I consciously chose the word "objectively", fully aware that it is very hard and dependent on many different factors to determine which cards are objectively too good not to play.
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