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Author Topic: Chain of Vapor and meta in Berlin    (Read 8682 times)
tonytahiti
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« on: 05-10-2014, 10:52:03 AM »

the data is of no use. i have been playing chain of vapors in all blue based midrange decks for a long time and nobody has picked it up eventhough its clearly correct and obviously the best card ever in those decks. i wanted to help and support but the data actually goes nowhere.

Edit by pyyhttu: Chain of Vapor topic separated from Berlin tournament reports from here: http://www.magicplayer.org/forum/index.php?topic=668.msg10559#msg10559

 
« Last Edit: 11-10-2014, 12:29:45 PM by pyyhttu » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: 08-10-2014, 12:06:06 PM »

I also doubt that data of a <10 person regional tournament has any use regarding the evaluation of the format. But it can be “nice” to promote new deck ideas and showing deck development progress which is better than nothing in a format which has no other content available. So I am happy with every deck list which gets online.

@ tonytahiti: Your statement sounds like you think a great deal of yourself. Is it possible that the rest of the community thinks that playing Chain of Vapor is “clearly incorrect” and “obviously not the best choice” in blue based midrange due to the conditional behavior of the card? Actually the card sees no play outside of combo decks due to a good reason. This does not belong to the topic, so I will not go into detail here but as you know better than me there are even uncommon game states where Chain of Vapor can be unplayable.
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« Reply #2 on: 09-10-2014, 09:06:45 PM »

@MMD: Shots fired!
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tonytahiti
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« Reply #3 on: 09-10-2014, 09:25:08 PM »

kenshin seems very excited. if those are "shots" for you, you shoudlnt come near a real argument.

been playing chain forever now and every player in berlin has picked it up (even jonny  who is pretty resistant to new cards, he plays it in almost all his blue decks). we play with the card and say its correct, you havent tested the card and havent played with it and say its incorrect. umm Smiley.

the way i said that chain of vapors is a must rubbed you the wrong way. instead of it bothering you that "i think a great deal of myself", maybe test cards that are successful somewhere else. that makes you a better player.
« Last Edit: 09-10-2014, 10:04:14 PM by Tabris » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: 09-10-2014, 09:54:58 PM »

i have been playing chain of vapors in all blue based midrange decks for a long time and nobody has picked it up eventhough its clearly correct and obviously the best card ever in those decks. i wanted to help and support but the data actually goes nowhere.

how do you know that? are you some kind of visionary?
maybe those guys just do not reach top spots in the tourney they play in or just wanna keep their decklists hidden?

every player in berlin has picked it up (even jonny al saidi who is pretty resistant to new cards, he plays it in almost all his blue decks)

something wrong maybe ?!
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tonytahiti
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« Reply #5 on: 09-10-2014, 10:00:34 PM »

"you think a great deal of yourself"
"are you some kind of visionary?"

guys you give me way too much credit Smiley and you are way too concerned about what i think about myself.
people in berlin saw what the card does and integrated it in their decks..i dont even know what "something wrong maybe" means, it isnt clear what you are trying to say. now it seems like you two are just offended and its not about the card anymore. pls stay on topic, thank you.
« Last Edit: 09-10-2014, 10:02:56 PM by tonytahiti » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: 09-10-2014, 10:21:23 PM »

Well it sure is a nice card. But without having it tested extensively it just seems a bit lackluster. Sure it only costs U, which is nice, if you strive for board presence, your opponent will probably bounce one of your permanents too. That is why this card is usually used in combo decks that do not have board presence until they kill you. So the problem for me is understanding why this card, contrary to my chain of thought, is supposed to be superior to, let's say Cyclonic Rift.

I have never considered the card, although I have seen people play it because I just fail to understand why it would be better than other options.
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« Reply #7 on: 09-10-2014, 11:01:03 PM »

.i dont even know what "something wrong maybe" means, it isnt clear what you are trying to say.

sorry, my fault - i should have been a bit more clearly
so lets try to help ya to understand what I've trying to say:

if anyone says to me:
"the data is of no use...chain of vapor is obviously one of the best cards because I play it for years but noone ever picked it up"
and a bit later he would say to me:
"every player in berlin picked it up"

I would ... Huh ... Roll Eyes ...
« Last Edit: 09-10-2014, 11:07:15 PM by Vazdru » Logged

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tonytahiti
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« Reply #8 on: 09-10-2014, 11:07:17 PM »

you cant be serious. i hope you are joking. if you really didnt understand the difference between picking up the data from mtgpulse and picking up the chain of vapors tech life in berlin, i am out of words. shocked even.

the data went nowehre. the decklist data on mtgpulse..nobody ever picked up my chain of vapors inclusion from there. in berlin - FACE TO FACE- REAL LIFE- everybody picked it up. i cant make it more clear.
« Last Edit: 09-10-2014, 11:09:51 PM by tonytahiti » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: 10-10-2014, 12:05:19 AM »

ah - thanks alot, now i've understood !


.... but i still wonder how you can know that noone in karlsruhe picked up chain of vapors ... but I'm pretty sure you can explain it to me sometimes ...

« Last Edit: 10-10-2014, 12:08:32 AM by Vazdru » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: 10-10-2014, 08:22:33 AM »

@kenshin

chain of vapors gives you an incredible amount of play. while one says its "conditional", i could argue that its one of the most non conditional cards: bounce every nonland permanent for one blue. that part happens. what happens afterwards is gamestate depended and can be influenced.

in the first few turns chain of vapors is cyclonic rift for half the mana cost. its incredibly rare that you bounce the best (most likely most mana hungry) permanent and they are willing to sacrifice a land..thats too much of a tempoloss, even if they bounce your biggest threat, you each got something bounced but you basically stone rained them for one blue instant speed.

regarding "the play" it gives you. i am gonna list some scenarios which arent the most common but which have happened before and which showcase how incredible versitile chain is:

1. opponent has nemesis and fauna shaman on board. you have kavu (and one blue open). he plays shriekmaw on your kavu. you bounce your kavu with chain, then sac a land, bounce his fauna shaman. he then is forced to destroy his own nemesis with shriekmaw and passes the turn with shriekmaw only. its your turn and you play kavu on shriekmaw. the gamestate was looking horrific for you, now it looks quite good and youre ahead on board.

2. you flood a bit vs control and beat down with snapcaster, clique, you got wall of omens laying around too. opponent doesnt have the best draw either but finds supreme verdict. you response by bouncing your three creatures (you gotta sac two lands to do that which is close to irrelevant since lands are a ressource that you got plenty of). eot you play snapcaster and clique for value, your turn you play omens etc. you probably turned card disadvantage (supreme verdict being a three for one) into card advantage (lands arent actually "cards" at this point and your creatures have etb triggers.

before people argue those are christmaswonderland gamestates: they are not. if you are good at creating gamestates where chain of vapors does alot it will DO ALOT.
« Last Edit: 10-10-2014, 08:46:42 AM by tonytahiti » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: 10-10-2014, 08:59:50 AM »


2. you flood a bit vs control and beat down with snapcaster, clique, you got wall of omens laying around too. opponent doesnt have the best draw either but finds supreme verdict. you response by bouncing your three creatures (you gotta sac two lands to do that which is close to irrelevant since lands are a ressource that you got plenty of). eot you play snapcaster and clique for value, your turn you play omens etc. you probably turned card disadvantage (supreme verdict being a three for one) into card advantage (lands arent actually "cards" at this point and your creatures have etb triggers.

I just wonder if you can sacrifice more than one land for making more copies of CoV? I haven´t found any relevant answers only some chating with judge in the link below. As my personal 2 cents - I think it wouldn´t work like returning three creatures (permanents), only 2 at maximum.

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/magic-rulings-archives/254681-chain-of-vapor

But I think Chain of Vapor can be very good overall, but there are some more bounce spells around to play, so it depends on your personal opinion and playstyle.
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« Reply #12 on: 10-10-2014, 10:05:29 AM »

You copy the spell including the copy clause. So as long as you sac lands you can copy it. You can not sac multiple lanes to copy it several.Times at once.but each copy lets you generate another's copy.

Well it may not  be magical Christmas land but those.cases are incredibly rare. And apart from those it is lacking in power. Other bounce spells are not as cheap but come with added benefits or without drawback.
What if your opponent just bounces.his etb trigger guys?  Aside from constructed examples, what is it it regularly does? Rift allows you to come back from a lot of unfavourable board states. Venser beats down and can carry swords. Command is nuts.

I am not saying this card isn't good. But jamming it in every blue deck seems a bit too much.
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« Reply #13 on: 10-10-2014, 10:42:29 AM »

you havent tested the card and havent played with it and say its incorrect. umm Smiley.

the way i said that chain of vapors is a must rubbed you the wrong way. instead of it bothering you that "i think a great deal of myself", maybe test cards that are successful somewhere else. that makes you a better player.

No. I wrote the whole community thinks it is incorrect as the card obviously sees no play outside of Combo.

Actually I personally don´t really care that you and whole Berlin plays this card because I:

-   Can understand the card text
-   Can connect this to potential applications
-   Can connect this to opportunities and threats
-   Made my own experiences since the card was printed
-   Know the options
-   Know what a bounce spell should basically do for me in a tempo deck (and none of your examples are matching these criteria. I could spam you with examples where the card is terrible or at least worse than the available options)

You tell us “data is of no use” because the card is not listed which is a unique understanding of the data available.
You tell us that when you (and your local crowd) play this card it is obviously the correct choice and all others are wrong.
Very Interesting.

The know-it-all behavior made me to write my post; it’s not the missing deck lists or even a single card. If you want to find acceptance in the community I would advise to work on your communication skills or accept people turn away from what you have to say.
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« Reply #14 on: 10-10-2014, 11:54:45 AM »


While I agree that Chain of Vapor allows some really neat plays especially in repsonse to Wasteland effects and/or with Senseis Top in play I really dislike the first scenario.
The Fauna Shaman guy is really playing like the biggest idiot. First of all casting Shriekmaw on a creature that is completely outclassed on board is not the best choice. I would
rather use the Shaman and play Bloodbraid Elf/Siege Rhino/Edric/Witness or some such depending on the game situation. If I acutally had played the Shriekmaw and my Fauna Shaman would be getting chained I would also sac a land and simply bounce my TNN. While the Fauna Shaman guy would have lost a lot of tempo this is still not a terrible outcome for him. 
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