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Reasoning for the past bannings?

Started by pyyhttu, 30-06-2008, 12:32:09 PM

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pyyhttu

First of all, as the banning season is getting closer and there may be cooking some new possible bannings under the lid this July (Hermit Druid, Grindstone... ), I am looking forward to an English coverage from the masterminds of this format for the reasonings, and what lead to the possible ban decision(s) as provided last time. Doable?

Also, I'd like to ask if a similar reasoning for the past bannings is possible. Then there would be at least some thread for the english speaking majority with compiled info covering _why_ some card has been banned in the first place earlier.

I ask this because I strongly feel there's a need for a list like this to add transparency, credibility and trust for the format more as highlander has been criticized in the past mainly because of it's odd-looking ban list by the players with no deep enough experience of the format.

They really don't have any source to check what were the grounds for decicisions as the high level banning discussion is held in German language only.

Vazdru

#1
Seen this?

Sturmgott wrote (http://www.magicplayer.org/forum/index.php?topic=31.0):


Single Card Explanations

Protean Hulk will be banned from the format because even without Flash he provides a basis for a viable combodeck. By reanimating and sacrificing Hulk the comboengine stays nearly the same. This problem could only be avoided by banning other cards like Entomb. We chose to ban Hulk and not Entomb, because Entomb is "broken" with no other card in the format, but can be put to good use in many decks, while Hulk will always be merely a combo piece. Thus banning Entomb would limit deck building far more than the absence of Hulk does. This decision was based on the same argumentation as the banning of Worldgorger Dragon.

Flash gets banned to get around similar combodecks which could otherwise surprisingly emerge in between two banning seasons if other abusable creatures hit the format in the future.

Unbanning Balance did not have the desired effect of improving control decks in the format. Instead of that Balance was abused by combo decks as the ultimate no-brainer creature removal. Furthermore the stax deck abused Balance as a combination of Wrath of God/Mind Twist/Armageddon for just two mana. In this respect unbanning Balance was a mistake which we hereby rectify.

The last Highlander-GP (in Germany, with 96 players competing) showed more than clearly the format-defining position of the Stax deck. Among the Top nine decks four players used such an artifact-based deck. The overwhelming dominance of this decktype was just stopped by extremely fast combo decks like HulkFlash or TPS and another deck which ran a huge load of artifact hate. In addition to that this decktype is confronting the metagame with the permanent threat of massive land destruction. For this reason we decided to intervent by banning the most powerful and threatening card of this decktype: Tolarian Academy.

While it's true that artifacts can easily be destroyed, we feel it's not healthy if success in our format depends on either being able to destroy at least two artifacts by turn four, or even having won by then already. We think that 'Stax' decks will remain playable even without Tolarian Academy. If this should turn out wrong, the power of this deck was obviously based on one "broken" card. Since all other decks (except for Yawgmoth's Will in TPS, see next paragraph) lack access to comparably powerful cards, we decided to take regulating action here.

Especially the decision whether we want the TPS deck to stay in the format in its actual form took us a long time and alot of debating. At last we decided to subscribe to the view of Hajo, SimonG and some other people and ban Yawgmoth's Will. The other option would have been to ban Gifts Ungiven. But Gifts does not do such broken things in other decks and is also an important card in every control deck. This is the reason why we want to keep Gifts in the format. Possibly TPS will now shift to being played Iggy-Pop-style, replacing Y.W. by Ill-Gotten-Gains, but we are convinced that the resulting deck won't be powerful enough to be a viable pure combo deck. We assume the deck will have to play some kind of other, defensive strategies to get the extra time needed.

Lion's Eye Diamond is another card which is only interesting for combo decks and would probably turn out to be the basis for the next-best combo deck with Auriok Salvagers. Since we don't want to jump out of the frying pan and into the fire, we applied preventive measures here.

Because Tolarian Academy is no longer permitted, Crop Rotation can rotate back in and will be legal for playuse in Magicplayer-Highlander as of 07/15/2007.

Changes to the Mulligan rule

The new Mulligan rule has been accepted as expected and we have received very positive feedback. The major criticisms have been addressed by the changes presented below, since the Combo-decks have had there potency greatly reduced, and many saw the combo-decks advantaged by this mulligan rule. The problem of “receiving a bad hand after the new mulligan and subsequently having to mulligan to 6 cards = Autoloss”, will be prevented by allowing the Mulligan rule once for the hand of his choosing. If you receive a bad 7 card hand, you could directly go to 6 cards without rejecting any cards. You can then apply the new mulligan rule on the 6 card hand so you would not be entirely helpless to a 7 card optimized hand.

In General

We have extended our Banning Policy to include the following point 5:

*Point 5 of the Banning Policy*

If a deck is playable only because of the existence of a “broken” card, then it has no right to existence in this environment and the broken card will be banned.

It is clear to us that there are points of argument regarding this case and that the decisions made under this point must be extremely well considered. We will continue to attempt to cater to your demands as well as our own in regard to care in maintaining and creating a healthy and balanced format.

Further Thoughts

The idea of unbanning further tutor cards and the future strategy of key-card bannings, was critically addressed. However, we concluded that the number of available good tutors is adequate. Unbanning further tutors would not provide any advantages. Especially regarding the Mystical Tutor, we spent a long time debating its worth. We decided it to be a Combo-Tutor card. Since we want to distance ourselves somewhat from excellent combodecks and also do not wish decks such as WWu and Stax to gain further tutors for their Armageddon-Effects, the decision was made to keep the card banned.

Demonic Tutor remains as the best tutor in the format since we wish to have one really good, universal tutor in this format and consider this tutor to be less dangerous than Vampiric Tutor especially since Balance will no longer be legal. In our opinion, the sorcery speed and the double cost is a greater disadvantage than not having the card directly in your hand.  The Vampiric is considered the best tutor for any potentially emerging future combodeck. Even the possibility in a control deck to wait for a threat from the opponent and in response an EoT tutor to search for the perfect answer is considered by us stronger than the advantage of the Demonic.

The Mystical Tutor presents the same advantages. Mystical Tutor searches for effects that can only be countered in contrast to enlightened tutor or worldly tutor which search for “Permanents” which can be attended to in various ways. As an example, just think of how good this addition to the HulkFlash deck would have been â€" it will find the Hulk (through the Summoner's Pact), as well as the Flash, and even Duress, Orim's Chant or Abeyance in order to protect the combo.

Insertion:

In addition â€" and this is just my personal opinion! â€" Demonic Tutor has a sense of charm that no other Magic card achieves. A banning of this card reduces the flare of Magic somewhat.

Umezawa's Jitte has not been unbanned despite several demands from players in the Forum. The reason remains the same as the reason we originally banned the card. We decided to ban Umezawa's Jitte for the following reasons:

1. Powerlevel and casting cost: Jitte provides a way too high powerlevel according to it's casting costs and cardtype (artifact). Jitte combines multiple important funktions in one card. It offers boardcontrol and fast kills for just two mana. Because the equipped creature only needs to deal damage, not combat damage, Jitte is almost always impossible to handle.
2. Missing selfregulation: The intended selfregulation through its legendary status (my Jitte destroys your Jitte) from WotC's R&D does not work for Jitte. It's far less likely to draw Umezawa's Jitte the time needed than in other formats to destroy the opposing Jitte. Thereby the luckfactor in a aggro vs. aggro matchup becomes more and more important because a Jitte which could not behandled for two or more turns is in most cases equal to victory.

Besides, Umezawa’s Jitte in this format presents an unwelcome and unnecessary worsening of the format.

Conclusion

We hope with these decision to have allowed a better and broader metagame which has less of a Type 1 feeling. This time we have attempted to achieve a greater level of transparency in our decisions. We are greatly looking forward to your discussions in the forum may it be criticisms or compliments: http://www.magicplayer.org/forum/index.php?board=16.0
Far below the earth
Where the demons hunt the souls of those that sleep
In the city of the Vazdru and the Drin
Where the black flame burns inside the palace fountain.

pyyhttu

Quote from: VazdruSeen this?

Sturmgott wrote (http://www.magicplayer.org/forum/index.php?topic=31.0):

Yeah, I've seen all that... I have this whole board mirrored via RSS feed in my reader and know what has been posted and when. Perhaps you should re-check my original post, notice that I already referred to that very same thread and then proceed to delete your post so it won't clutter this thread, I'll do the same for this then :)

What I meant by the reasoning of the "past bannings" is that I'd like to know the similar facts that led to the bannings of Dust Bowl, Imperial Seal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Memory Jar, Mind Over Matter... to name but a few.

For example, I know the banning of Dust Bowl is explained by Sturmgott here but I have no idea what exactly is being said, unless I commit a silly babelfish translation...

I really would like to promote this format where I live, but the lack of documentation of your format for the English speaking majority makes it really hard. At least explanation of your past bannings should be covered.

Or am I asking too much?

Vazdru

Quote from: pyyhttu on 30-06-2008, 11:31:31 PM
Quote from: VazdruSeen this?

Sturmgott wrote (http://www.magicplayer.org/forum/index.php?topic=31.0):

Yeah, I've seen all that... I have this whole board mirrored via RSS feed in my reader and know what has been posted and when. Perhaps you should re-check my original post, notice that I already referred to that very same thread and then proceed to delete your post so it won't clutter this thread, I'll do the same for this then :)

What I meant by the reasoning of the "past bannings" is that I'd like to know the similar facts that led to the bannings of Dust Bowl, Imperial Seal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Memory Jar, Mind Over Matter... to name but a few.

For example, I know the banning of Dust Bowl is explained by Sturmgott here but I have no idea what exactly is being said, unless I commit a silly babelfish translation...

I really would like to promote this format where I live, but the lack of documentation of your format for the English speaking majority makes it really hard. At least explanation of your past bannings should be covered.

Or am I asking too much?

Mea culpa - I've had just a short look on your post and haven't noticed the link.

There have some long discussions about e. g. Banning of Dust Bowl in the past but it's quite calm in the German Highlander Community recently. I think the best chances to get the information you looking for is to contact

a) Sturmgott (unfortunately almost inactive on this board a while)
b) Malz77 (MP.org Mod + promoter of GP V and "HL Council Member" ) -> malz77@web.de
or c) Hajo Höh -> (main analyst of Highlander Metagame) -> redaktion@magicuniverse.de directly.

Far below the earth
Where the demons hunt the souls of those that sleep
In the city of the Vazdru and the Drin
Where the black flame burns inside the palace fountain.

pyyhttu

#4
OK, thanks. I'll contact Frank and CC the two others of the "committee" with the same mail, but won't hold my breath if what you said holds true. Let's see if someone answers. Should I get a response and in case it's not posted here, I naturally put it here.

Edit: Done, sent the mail. Waiting for response.

pyyhttu

I've been rushing here: I just noticed based on malz77's post at magicplayer.org that I've been tried to contact by Hajo regarding to the translation of the bans BUT the mail got stuck on spam filters.

Hajo responded (kudos to him) and the short story is that I was assured the English translation of the _current_ bans are coming after all.

I am not so sure about the past bannings as from malz77 from magicplayer.org:

QuoteMalz77 sagte zum Thema "der Man aus Finnland":

...hat zumindest schon von Hajo eine kurze Antwort bekommen. Also nicht rumreden, wenn man keinen Überblick darüber hat, was überhaupt passiert. Ich schaffe es einfach momentan neben der Arbeit nicht, alle historischen Begründungen für Bannings ins englische zu übersetzen... das könnte ja auch mal irgendwer anderes machen (damit bist jetzt gar nicht Du Vazdru gemeint), die Sachen sind ja online und für jeden einsehbar.

I am not sure what is exactly being said there regarding to the past bannings.


Vazdru

#6
Sometimes i think it's absolutely ridiculous to discuss about sense or non-sense of bannings or unbannings. ??? ;D Why? Long story  ;)

I have to read things like Mystical IS banned cause Mystical MADE silly things in the PAST:

Arguments for banning Mystical:

1) Mystical WAS terrible in HulkFlash
2) Mystical WAS horrible in Swans of Plasma
3) Mystical WAS a matchwinner in TPS
4) Mystical is strong in ANY combo-decks (Which one????)
and so on

Hello??? Does anyone find out whats being wrong???

Sorry guys - can't believe what I've read. Like I've said it's always easy to find some arguments to justify his own course. Perceptions can be SO one-dimensional.

It would be so easy to say -> We don't wanna have Instant-Tutors for 1 Mana in our Format - that would be a evident criterion.

But to say Demonic has some kind of flair, Mystical is too strong, Enlightened is required, Gifts Ungiven is too strong but its just so a nice card and a rotation of Tutors is unrequested sounds like a running gag to me...like a course under thick fog.   

Sorry again - I'm overexcited and maybe frustrated :-\..better going to bed now.

Cya
Far below the earth
Where the demons hunt the souls of those that sleep
In the city of the Vazdru and the Drin
Where the black flame burns inside the palace fountain.

pyyhttu

@Vazdru: I don't want this to get to off-topic babble about bannings itself as just wanted to raise the topic in order to demand some love for us international players as well: Tell us in depth about the most recent bannings and about the past bannings when time allows.

So far no love of any kind.

I was promised by Hans Joachim Höh "complete explanations in the upcoming weeks."

I know that I'm not in the position to demand anything, but if this council wants to uphold at least any credibility, now would be the time to step out and at least answer to the whole community in this thread what's going on.

--
Tuomas

Vazdru

Quote from: pyyhttu on 02-08-2008, 07:43:35 PM
@Vazdru: I don't want this to get to off-topic babble about bannings itself as just wanted to raise the topic in order to demand some love for us international players as well: Tell us in depth about the most recent bannings and about the past bannings when time allows.

So far no love of any kind.

I was promised by Hans Joachim Höh "complete explanations in the upcoming weeks."

I know that I'm not in the position to demand anything, but if this council wants to uphold at least any credibility, now would be the time to step out and at least answer to the whole community in this thread what's going on.

--
Tuomas

I can't explain bannings cause I do not understand them at all by myself. Actually i don 't have the time to deal with the bannings made by the so called "Highlander committee". I'm still writing an article about the last highlander grand prix - so you might get an impression how much spare time I've had in the last weeks and month.

I've closed that mysterious book called "Highlander Bannings" already a while ago - I think I do not know more news to tell, even if i had more time. But maybe I'll take that time in my next holidays - in the last week of august. We will c.

Sorry - I don't be a great help in the moment.
Far below the earth
Where the demons hunt the souls of those that sleep
In the city of the Vazdru and the Drin
Where the black flame burns inside the palace fountain.

pyyhttu

#9
That's okay. We'll get this documented little by little, if not with the help of "committee", then by ourselves. But in that case the translations always aren't as accurate and "official". Would prefer to hear this straight from the horse's mouth.

BUT: Luckily there are others from German HL-community who actually care for the format on international scale. Sunflower on these boards decided to contribute his personal time by helping tremendously with the complete translation of the most recent bannings:

Quote from: magicplayer.org translation date: 1.7.2008

On 01.07.2008 the following changes to the banned list are made. These changes become active 15.07.2008.

Banned:

    * Cephalid Illusionist
    * Dread Return
    * Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
    * Painter's Servant
    * Chain of Plasma

Unbanned:

    * -

Watchlist:

    * + Hermit Druid
    * + Life from the Loam
    * - Aluren
    * - Dreamhalls
    * - Mana Severance
    * - Mishra's Workshop
    * - Yawgmoth's Bargain

Reasoning

The deck: Cephalid Breakfast

After extensive testing, the deck, which Oliver Malina won the last
highlander grand prix with, has turned out to be to strong for the
highlander format. Therefore we take an action.

Cephalid Illusionist

The Cephalid Illusionist is a mere combo card in contrast to the
Hermit Druid, which is often played in decks without enabling a
combo. While having the disadvantage (with respect to the Hermit
Druid) to need an additional card (Shuko, Lightning Greaves, any
En-Kor) to fill the graveyard, it has the big advantage of doing this
without having to wait for summoning sickness to wear off. Moreover,
it has the striking virtue of only filling the graveyard as full as
its controller wants it to. With the Hermit Druid in contrast it is
"top or flop", such that the combo needs to be thoroughly protected
when using him.

Dread Return

Since the combo is still possible via the Hermit Druid we have
thoroughly pondered whether the hermit needs to go too. Many players
like this card very much (it is gladly played as an utility creature)
and it has never made a ban-worthy appearance. Therefore we have
decided not to destroy the combo deck completely but to hinder it for
the time being. So far the Hermit Druid, together with Narcomoeba and
Acorn Harvest or Chatter of the Squirrel, has been a single card
combo. Now a player needs at least the reanimation in hand (or bring
it into his hand) to win the game. Since, in our opinion, the Hermit
Druid can not remain while Dread Return is in the
format, the latter has to leave. Should Hermit Druid turn out to be
too abusable, then it can potentially change its place with Dread
Return in one of the next banning seasons.

Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

For us the next best two card combo seemed to be Buried Alive +
Reanimate that ends the game, via Kiki-Jiki, Pestermite and Karmic
Guide, by infinite Pestermites with haste. Since additionally this
combo can be build mono-colored this seemed sufficiently threating to
take pre-emptive measures.

Painter's Servant

The two card combo of Painter's Servant and Grindstone, that ends the
game for 6 mana from hand at any time, but can as well be started on
turn three, is also known from other formats. Since it can be
integrated into any deck, as both parts are artifacts, it is perceived
as too simple and also too powerful. Therefore we ban the Painter's
Servant for good.

Chain Of Plasma

Chain of Plasma needs to leave since the combo with Swans of Bryn
Argol is too good. According to our tests of rather untuned builds of
the deck this will prevent combo dominance in the highlander format.
Since the Swans yield interesting board situations while the Chain is
just another 3 for 2 burn spell, we have decided to keep the swan in
the format.

Watch List: Life from the Loam

Due to the coming mechanic "Retrace" that allows spells (that have
this ability) to be played from the graveyard by additionally
discarding a land (yes, this is possible again and again) and for the
fact that it is not clear what cards with retrace there will be, Life
from the Loam is put on the watchlist. It is clear to us that Life
from the Loam is a card that has a strong influence on the format,
which means that further bannings are to be expected if Life from the
Loam needs to leave.

Generally problematic: Combo

Even though it is not yet an official part of the banning policy, it
should be clear from the discussions that the highlander council does
not approve of pure combo decks as tier 1 decks. For a major part of
the players combo is the most hated deck type, since the doings of the
combo players opponent are mostly irrelevant for the combo player.
This leads to a minimal interaction which cannot desirable. At the
same time we are aware that we proclaimed to shape the format such as
to have as many different decks and archetypes be tier 1 as possible.
From now on we will deviate consciously from the present
strategy and will make the format more friendly towards non-combo
players. It is also clear to us that we may fall from grace with the
friends of combo but we have intensively weighed the wishes and
interests of the players. In the end we have decided to take this step
and we will follow this way consequently.

First and foremost the highlander format shall be about fun. Combo
decks are no fun for most of the players, especially not from the
other side of the table. Interaction remains to be the main target of
our banning policy and will, in our opinion, be ensured more strongly
by this step.

This thread has served its purpose. Unfortunately it became rather apparent that the "council" gives Jack shit about international players but in turn, there are individuals that have honest understanding and urge to help.

Edit: credited Sunflower for the translation.