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14018 Posts in 1016 Topics- by 444 Members - Latest Member: Dracomnis
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Author Topic: combo is dead - long live combo    (Read 7763 times)
carte_blanche
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« Reply #15 on: 17-08-2014, 02:58:12 AM »

Nice thread... I agree - I don't think combo is dead. Even creatureless combo is imho an option. There are just not enough players that like to play combo decks. Combo decks usually require a lot of practice and that's the show-stopper (I believe) for many players. As far as I can tell most HL players are of age 25+ and thus don't have too much leisure time left for turning paper cards and mastering such decks.

- - -

I've been testing Oath-storm variants for quite a long time. Unfortunately I lack practice playing them due to time issues. So my list might not be streamlined to the last... and I tend to loose against myself quite often... Embarassing moments when you just realize how you would/should have won right after you lost the game. Grin Lack of practice.

@the deck: When I'm playing 5c anyway, why not being super-greedy? So I combined some parts of the untapping engine from High Tide with Academy for mana generation - either "as combo" or as mana generation during a combo turn but not with too much focus on that aspect. First, the deck was focussed more onto the "High Tide game" with Tolarian Academy but that was way too clunky. Now I use the artifact mana both as acceleration to a critical amount of mana and as a backup against Blood Moon and Back to Basics.

In general, there are 3,5 ways to victory... Oath of Druids, Ad Nauseam, Basalt Monolith + Mesmeric Orb and a natural Tendrils for 20. The latter I count only as 0.5 because you can't set up a storm kill within reasonable time (around turn 5) without a lot of luck in your draw 7s.

@I removed most of the counter magic, because these spells were too unfunctional during the games. So I took the route towards more proactive protection (discard, silence effects). Many control decks are forced to play a lot of useless cards against creatureless combo, so I feel quite comfortable with the current choice of tools. I don't even use Force of Will because I just don't play enough blue cards.

@Recursion: I currently run both, Yawgmoth's Will and Past in Flames because I feel more comfortable this way and lost a couple of games before because of not playing a second YawgWin effect. Especially in grindout games vs. control you can "waste" one of these effects to recast one of your key spells without being forced to end the game right on the spot.

@Removal: Almost nothing. Just what I need as aggro stopper (and my archenemy Aven Mindcensor) and some catch-alls.


//Lands
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
1 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Scrubland
1 Plateau
1 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tree of Tales
1 Ancient Den
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Great Furnace
1 Reflecting Pool
1 City of Brass
1 Forbidden Orchard
1 Tolarian Academy

//Fastmana
1 Lotus Petal
1 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Rite of Flame
1 Seething Song
1 Manamorphose

//Accel
1 Mox Diamond
1 Chrome Mox
1 Talisman of Impulse
1 Talisman of Indulgence
1 Talisman of Progress
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Prismatic Lens
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Gilded Lotus

//Untap mode
1 Snap
1 Frantic Search
1 Turnabout
1 Mind Over Matter

//Draw
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Memory Jar
1 Time Spiral

//Orb plan
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Mesmeric Orb

//Oath plan
1 Oath of Druids
1 Griselbrand

//Ad Nauseam
1 Angel's Grace
1 Phyrexian Unlife
1 Ad Nauseam

//Tutor
1 Expedition Map
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Personal Tutor
1 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Cruel Tutor
1 Rhystic Tutor
1 Idyllic Tutor
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Perplex
1 Intuition
1 Wargate
1 Mystical Teachings

//Seek
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Impulse

//Protection
1 Silence
1 Orim's Chant
1 Abeyance
1 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Remand
1 Izzet Charm

//Recursion, kill & removal
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Memory's Journey
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate


I think the deck stands a chance against most decks - you can beat aggro with speed and still beat control in grindout games if pure speed didn't work out. What the deck currently lacks is an experienced pilot. Wink
« Last Edit: 17-08-2014, 03:14:26 AM by carte_blanche » Logged
Maqi
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« Reply #16 on: 18-08-2014, 01:14:02 PM »

I'm planning to go "storm", too.

I haven't got all the cards yet, so I have no actual game experience with the deck (although I played against it occasionally).

I'm wondering why nobody includes Lightning Bolt. To me the card seems to go right with the plan. On one hand, it gets rid of pesky hate critters like Aven Mindcensor, Thalia, Gaddock Teeg, Tidehollow Sculler, Scavenging Ooze, Deathrite Shaman etc. and on the other hand, it adds a virtual 2.5 points to your storm count (Storm +1, +3 dmg accumulates to 5 Damage when killing with Tendrils). It is also very cheap and goes along well with Yawgmoth's Will or Past in Flames.

Can anybody explain?
« Last Edit: 18-08-2014, 01:15:55 PM by Maqi » Logged
carte_blanche
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« Reply #17 on: 21-08-2014, 11:21:06 AM »

I was tempted to play the card now and then for exactly the same reasons you stated here, Maqi. However, the list I posted above your post is not a storm deck in the sense of TES but a combo deck that just uses storm to win. It's not tuned towards a natural storm kill to which you're referring to. (If I got you right...?) I alway preferred Firespout-like cards that get rid not just of these unnerving hate bears but also buy me one or two rounds against aggro by cleaning the whole board.

Moreover, I tend to use transmute cards as tutors so I naturally chose to play Pyroclasm and Toxic Deluge over single-target removal (toolboxing). Keeping in mind these reasons I would rather play Fire // Ice because it can be used to burn up to two creatures and is still usable against control (tapping islands). Worst case scenario: it just cycles.

Usually my problem in Oath-Storm decks is to assemble the combo parts in time and protect them. Once I manage this the storm count / damage output is almost arbitrary.

I am aware, that this reasoning must not hold true for a dedicated storm list... here mana const matters more due to the (comparatively) small number of fast mana cards (ritual mana, LED, moxen,...) and you usually don't got access to your whole library. My question is: how many of such "Blot effects" do you wanna play? And what to cut? Pyroclasm effects? (If you even play them in the first place.) Cutting tools to search for the right cards is certainly not the way to go, I suppose.

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Maqi
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« Reply #18 on: 21-08-2014, 10:06:57 PM »

Thx! Your line of thought makes perfect sense to me. I'm eager to put storm together. Can't wait until all those cards finally arrive...
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