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Author Topic: Journey into Nyx    (Read 15674 times)
W0lf
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« Reply #15 on: 24-04-2014, 07:00:03 PM »

Maybe in some kind of aggro Control deck with Opposition and pestermite, so you don't have to attack  to trigger him.
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MMD
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« Reply #16 on: 25-04-2014, 01:09:36 PM »

Deciple od Deceit  -So why not adding Merchant Scroll to the mix? You can tutor for Muddle the Mixture in order to transmute him…After paying UB sorcery for a 1/3 guy you just need to untap him somehow to gain a quite limited tutor effect. This card is garbage IMO.

Eidolon of Great Revel  - On the other hand I reconsidered this one. The stats are still quite bad and there is no haste printed on it but it is true that this guy is very annoying to many control/combo strategies. In aggro/midrange meta I still do not like him.
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« Reply #17 on: 25-04-2014, 01:55:46 PM »

tiggupiru is right, some people seem to look at disciple of deceit wrong. "oh inspired is so hard to trigger", "he does not untap until turn 4, thats terrible"..you got to look at it as a 2 mana 1/3 creature that has a high variance ability stacked on top of it that is immensely powerful when it happens - little investment, huge possible upside. downgrading this guy cause he doesnt trigger consistenly is silly..what is expected? that you transmute target card for 0 mana every turn because of a 2 mana 1/3 creature? that would be broken beyond words. often it wont happen, especially vs aggro decks, then it blocks a kird ape and loam lion all day, just like my augur of bolas is not a "lost card" when he doesnt hit. vs control this guy is a must remove threat and turn 2 vs. storm for example this is often game (get counter every turn, or mindcensor or whatever hoser you have). i mean, what would need to change on the card for you to consider it good: 1/4 body, 2/3? come on. you get incredible value for 2 mana, this ability on a 1/3 for 2 is very very good. and its much better than pain seer, 3 toughness is key here. people underrate 3 toughness on two mana creatures often i feel like.
« Last Edit: 25-04-2014, 02:14:09 PM by tonytahiti » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: 25-04-2014, 02:56:24 PM »

Perhaps comparing him helps...Is he better than Sygg? I do not find home for Sygg in any of my aggro control decks which is the only strategy were Diciple is playable at all.
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« Reply #19 on: 25-04-2014, 03:20:48 PM »

The problem with the Disciple in my opinion is not that it doesn't trigger consistently, but that you are limited in your search options by what's in your hand. The prospect of tutoring for an answer each turn against combo seems pretty utopic to me because of this. You can't really guarantee you will find an answer, because you can't reliably tutor for something specific with it. Therefore I can imagine the trigger being more or less irrelevant many times. It will only ever be consistently good in situations where any other card of the same cost would be better than what you have in your hand (cycling away removal against combo/control for example).

Dakra Mystic on the other hand is a very underrated card with a lot of potential in my opinion. Yes, the body is irrelevant and the ability costs you mana, but that is the case with other good creatures too, like Grim Lavamancer or Deathrite Shaman. Now admittedly, these two have way better effects, but the Mystic's is pretty decent too. It's a low cost creature that draws you extra cards, and while it does that for your opponent too, you also have the option to deny him essential topdecks, which in our largely topdeck-reliant meta and in the light of the Mystical Tutor-Unban doesn't seem too shabby. Additionally, it's a nice skill-testing card, one that isn't perfectly easy to use, but can have a huge upside if used correctly. For me, this is the real sleeper of the set and it's a shame how undervalued it seems to be.
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tonytahiti
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« Reply #20 on: 25-04-2014, 03:40:02 PM »

what? you think the trigger will be mostly irrelevant? what? thats only the case when you have the best cards (for that particular mana cost) for the spefici game you are playing in your hand, which is almost impossible. imagine you have a 2 and a 4 drop in your hand, how high do you think the chance is that you cant get a better suited 2 drop OR 4 drop? INCREDIBLY low. this is a 100 card format and if you think the trigger "target card in your hand gains 0:transmute" is mostly irrelevant then i am out of words. of course you sometimes cant get the best card in your deck (its not demonic tutor, we all know that) but it gives you an amazing tree of options. and calling the disciple trigger a problem cause its NOT demonic tutor, come on ("the problem with stoneforge mystic is that it only gets equipment" etc)..i mean, when we could have all our wishes magic wouldnt be fun.
« Last Edit: 25-04-2014, 04:05:12 PM by tonytahiti » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: 25-04-2014, 04:14:48 PM »

I'm not saying it will never be relevant, but it will be in much less situations than you think it will. Let's say you have a 4-Drop, but you desperately need to kill your opponent's planeswalker and the only answers you have for that cost 3. The effect is great for cycling away dead cards, and in most cases, yes, you will find something that might be better suited for the situation, but consistently finding answers for your opponent's threats is a whole different story. And on an empty board which is probably when the trigger will happen most often since the Disciple can then attack freely, you are either already winning or you have no idea what your opponent has up its sleeve, so you can't always tell whether or not you should transmute.
« Last Edit: 25-04-2014, 04:32:10 PM by phyrexianblackmetal » Logged
tonytahiti
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« Reply #22 on: 25-04-2014, 04:22:16 PM »

when you want to make a card look bad i guess you can with unreasonable arguments. again.."if somebody milled away your only two equipments, stoneforge wont find one, dont forget that!". when it comes to evaluating a card coming up with a unlikely scenario (only 4 drop in hand, 2 cards of 2 different manacosts is WAY more likely) that makes a card look bad is not the solution. i am not even sure what you mean by desperately handling a planeswalker? jace ultimate, liliana ultimate? in those games you already are so far behind and obv havent done much the last turns.. if thats the case AND you only have 4 drop THEN YES THE DISCIPLE WONT SAVE YOU (the card doesnt say "i win you the game no matter how far behind you are"). magic is more than about answers, when he has jace and i would rather get dsphere but cant, then i get a jace myself, face power with power is another kind of answer. tutoring in highlander for 0 freakin mana in a realistic scenario (2-3 different kinds of manacost) is incredibly powerful. i wanna say "there is no arguing about that", but apparently there is.
« Last Edit: 25-04-2014, 04:28:30 PM by tonytahiti » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: 25-04-2014, 04:24:43 PM »

Although I am not sure how good exactly Deceiple of Deceit will be, I think it has potential that needs exploring. What I am very certain about is the fact, that if my opponent EVER plays Dakra Mystic I will be very happy and will have to fight autopilot mode for the rest of the game.
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« Reply #24 on: 25-04-2014, 05:08:23 PM »

when you want to make a card look bad i guess you can with unreasonable arguments. again.."if somebody milled away your only two equipments, stoneforge wont find one, dont forget that!". when it comes to evaluating a card coming up with a unlikely scenario (only 4 drop in hand, 2 cards of 2 different manacosts is WAY more likely) that makes a card look bad is not the solution. i am not even sure what you mean by desperately handling a planeswalker? jace ultimate, liliana ultimate? in those games you already are so far behind and obv havent done much the last turns.. if thats the case AND you only have 4 drop THEN YES THE DISCIPLE WONT SAVE YOU (the card doesnt say "i win you the game no matter how far behind you are"). magic is more than about answers, when he has jace and i would rather get dsphere but cant, then i get a jace myself, face power with power is another kind of answer. tutoring in highlander for 0 freakin mana in a realistic scenario (2-3 different kinds of manacost) is incredibly powerful. i wanna say "there is no arguing about that", but apparently there is.

I don't know how it is for you, but unless my opponent is on 5 life or so, a planeswalker always needs to be removed as quickly as possible, and not just if it threatens ulti. I also think you are missing my point. I am not saying tutoring every turn isn't good, but the effect is too random to be an autowin against combo or even a "must-remove threat" against control, especially considering that it is hard to keep going, especially if you are the slightest bit behind (a 3-power creature on your opponent's side would already be enough in most cases). You can't really rely on it to do anything when you really need it to do something (aka when you're behind), and when you're ahead, the effect is just "win more" anyway. Most of the time this will be a 1/3 dork with minimal impact on the game. If you think that's worth playing, fine.
« Last Edit: 25-04-2014, 05:10:22 PM by phyrexianblackmetal » Logged
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« Reply #25 on: 25-04-2014, 05:16:38 PM »

Why are you tony always getting so mad? People are just discussing about a card that is hard to evaluate properly. You are right about 1/3 being a lot better than 2/2 in this case though.

The card is probably very good in a spesific deck but it's not some kind of ultimate format breaker or even playable in very many archetypes. Coolest deck I've built so far with Disciple is a Grixis-Splinter Twin-aggrocontrol that looks quite funny on paper. But due to recent changes in the banned list the format is heading very heavily blue direction. Historically fish decks tend to do well against combo and control and Disciple is the ultimate fish. Control decks are just so good right now with the new mulligan, True Name Nemesis and Mystical Tutor that winning will be hard for the tempo and aggrocontrol decks.
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tonytahiti
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« Reply #26 on: 25-04-2014, 05:42:52 PM »

i am not getting mad. a little irritated i get though when i hear that "target card in your hand gets transmute 0" will be "mostly irrelevant" -  then i dont know where to start explaining things. then i feel i am facing arguments that havent been thought through properly. like "the effect is random"..i dont even know how to respond to it, when it untaps it gives you tons of options..i dont know whats "random" about it. or "when he connects you are already ahead and its win more"? when i play this and you play thalia or even a bigger two drop and i remove it in my turn (thalia doesnt even have to be removed/example) and i attack (which is a common scenario), then i am not ahead in a way where the transmute doesnt matter. or "he doesnt do anything when you are behind"..it costs 2 mana!! which 2 mana creature will turn a game upside down etc when you are behind. its just very basic stuff, that seems to be not thought about enough, its statements i can prove wrong in a matter of seconds. i like arguing and exploring potentials but on a level like this i do get irritated, yes.
« Last Edit: 25-04-2014, 05:53:35 PM by tonytahiti » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: 25-04-2014, 06:24:36 PM »

like "the effect is random"..i dont even know how to respond to it, when it untaps it gives you tons of options..i dont know whats "random" about it.

It's random in the sense that the pool of cards you can tutor from is based on the random pile of cards that is your hand.

or "when he connects you are already ahead and its win more"? when i play this and you play thalia or even a bigger two drop and i remove it in my turn (thalia doesnt even have to be removed/example) and i attack (which is a common scenario), then i am not ahead in a way where the transmute doesnt matter.

This scenario is based on quite a lot of assumptions: that you have removal, that my creature can be removed with that removal, that you're on the play, that I only have one creature that threatens to kill the Disciple, that I don't have removal and don't draw it during my next turn... These are all at least equally as common scenarios as the one you described.

or "he doesnt do anything when you are behind"..it costs 2 mana!! which 2 mana creature will turn a game upside down etc when you are behind.

Well, these comparisons might be a bit silly, but since you asked: Stoneforge Mystic, Snapcaster Mage, Tarmogoyf, Pack Rat. These are the ones I could think of at the top of my head that have the potential to turn the game around when you're behind. Depending on the situation potentially more (like playing Phyrexian Revoker or Vampire Hexmage on the opponent's planeswalker that is dominating the board).
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ChristophO
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« Reply #28 on: 25-04-2014, 07:38:49 PM »


Guys, please try to stay civil with each other. Fighting about a card evaluation is not worth it.

Judging the potential of the card I agree with tonytahiti. The trigger is extremely powerful. Even if
you have only 2 cards with different mana cost in your hand this will let you tutor for 25 to 40% of your decks spells.
So I can understand why he is baffled by other peoples judgment of the trigger.

The card can fetch stuff like Jace,tMS, Damnation, Sower, Cryptic Command, Snuff Out in the 4 spot and Stuff like Liliana, Shackles, Back to Basics in the three slot. Hymn, Demonic, Bitterblossom, Mana Drain in the two spot and dicard, or utility such as Relic of Progenitus in the two spot. And those examples are just for an UB Aggro Control Deck. 

Now, the "bad" part about the card is a 1/3 for two that only does stuff when your opponent allows you to untap with it. And tapping it requires an attack first so the card is at its strongest only when you are capable of making a profitable attack/can afford the opponent attacking you as well. Against aggro decks a 1/3 for two acutally is really nice, because they block 2/1 creatures profitably and wall 2/2s. So I believe the card will see some play at least. For more it is doubtful.

Btw Imagine this scenario (Demanding Disciple + 4 lands + 1 4 cmc card (of in total maybe 8 with that cost) in your hand out of your first 10 cards):
T2 cast the guy on the play.
T3 attack
T4 upkeep dicard rando 4 mana card get opposition, cast opposition -> profit?

The opponent could ramp with an elf into a 3cmc 3/power guy or have a 3 power guy for 2cmc or less or spend a spot removal spell.


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tonytahiti
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« Reply #29 on: 26-04-2014, 09:34:33 AM »

"It's random in the sense that the pool of cards you can tutor from is based on the random pile of cards that is your hand"

- yes, like i said, its not demonic tutor, it is obviously depended on SOMETHING. just because it cant get any card, doesnt mean its random. not demonic tutor = random? no. actually the word "tutor" itsself screams: not random, not random.

"This scenario is based on quite a lot of assumptions: that you have removal, that my creature can be removed with that removal, that you're on the play, that I only have one creature that threatens to kill the Disciple, that I don't have removal and don't draw it during my next turn... These are all at least equally as common scenarios as the one you described."

- no. like christopho said, if you drop this guy turn two, its actually more likely you get to attack with it then not. opponent needs removal (but why would you play removal on this guy? he tutors randomly..) or 3 power creature. i think you underestimate how often a 1/3 can actually attack.

"Well, these comparisons might be a bit silly, but since you asked: Stoneforge Mystic, Snapcaster Mage, Tarmogoyf, Pack Rat. These are the ones I could think of at the top of my head that have the potential to turn the game around when you're behind. Depending on the situation potentially more (like playing Phyrexian Revoker or Vampire Hexmage on the opponent's planeswalker that is dominating the board)."

- stoneforge is banned. pack rats is good when behind? absolutely not. pack rats needs 2-3 turns to get going, having a 1/1, maybe two 2/2 when behind doesnt do anything, since you cant block if you want your rats to grow. tarmogoyf can stabilize, snapcaster too. but if you compare it with the best 2 drops of all time, disciple cant be that bad afterall.
« Last Edit: 26-04-2014, 09:46:06 AM by tonytahiti » Logged

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