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[Discussion] Ban List changes April 1st 2014

Started by Doks, 17-04-2014, 01:05:26 AM

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Doks

Hey.

So, I'm pretty surprised that there are next to no reactions in this forum regarding the bans published at the beginning of the month. I have at least expected some kind of hot discussion about TNN that may stay for some more time (it seems like so many people hate it and find it to be too non-interactive for our creature-heavy format) and the unbanning of Mystical Tutor (where people either think it will be blatantly OP due to Miracle effect cards or just another strong choice of the Mirage tutor cycle).

I personally like the unbanning of the M. Tutor, but can't share the hate for TNN except for being the ultimate planeswalker killer against control decks. Considering to unban Gifts Ungiven is also a step by our council that I welcome very much.


Is there nothing you guys are happy / salty about?

MMD

I was also wondering why nobody cries about the new banned list decision as usual. Actually I was not able to play magic since the last GP (my first son is born) so I can just give my theoretical input:

TNN – IMO this non interactive card is on the same level as Jitte in creature matchups. Both simply win creature mirros and are mediocre against other strategies. Either accept or ban both. Library of Alexandria is on the same level but in Control mirrors. I would better ban those "mirror game silver bullets" because of unfun and non-interactive reasons.

Mystical Tutor – This puts U control strategies on the next (and highest) level. Cards like Demonic, Merchant Scroll, Mystical Teachings, etc. multiply the accessibility of all Miracle spells (and/or other I win cards like Scapeshift, PoP etc.). I expect UW/UR/Esper/4COath are the "to beat" decks.  This will most probably also help to finally break Tolarian Academy. I am curios how Midrange can adapt to this huge threat, which I personally doubt.  I wouldn´t have released this monster personally.

Imperial Seal – Why is this card banned? Power Level? While Demonic and Mystical is allowed? Price tag and availability? Why is Tabernacle allowed then? I would appreciate to have a logic banned list and this does not make sense any more. I would expect that unbanning Seal would even help the format as this is a more or less exclusive Combo card which lacks competitiveness lately.

Gifts Ungiven – Having cards like Demonic, Mystical, Academy and especially LftL allowed and speaking about the unban of Gifts Ungiving in a slow downed game (Free mulligan) frightens me. Especially when my Mystical prediction (Control as Tier 1 strategy) becomes true I already have to think back to the Gifts/Loam games which were very unfun. Please do not allow Gifts in a slow downed meta, at least not with LftL around.

SDT – I have no bad experience with this card at all. No one I have ever played against has used this card in an improper way.

Entomb – This cards is dangerous as it can create absurd fast and nearly unbeatable situations. Perhaps a borderline card because it gets weaker in the late game but 1st turn Entomb seems very hard to beat for me (but the same argument is valid for T2 Oath IMO)

Oath of Druids, Mana Drain, Demonic Tutor, (perhaps also Enlightened Tutor and Yawgmoth Will) – not having them on the watchlist does not look correct to me power level wise. All of them could potentially break the format and should be watched.

I personally do not see a reason anymore for not playing blue based control decks with the new unbannings. The only question for me is what kind of U-based control strategy I have to play which depends on the expected Meta.


In a nutshell:

TNN – ban (like Jitte and LoA)
Mystical – ban (Miracle and other I win cards)
Imperial Seal – unban (combo support)
Gifts Ungiven – keep banned (unban only if LftL gets banned instead)
SDT – keep unbanned
Entomb – keep banned
Oath, Drain and Demonic – watch list
Feel free to browse through my MKM account:

http://www.magickartenmarkt.de/index.php?mainPage=showSellerChart&idInfoUser=13199

I also have a huge amount of chinese and japanese foil HL staples not listed yet,  which I would like to downgrade to english foil. Just let me know!

Ball.Lightning

#2
I would not overestimate the impact of Mystical Tutor. Agro or agrocontrol with blue simply dont need that and will not play it. They seldom play Wordly Tutor or even Enlightment tutor (appart Hulk deck). There are plenty of instant or sorcery answers to various board situations, but there are only two major cards that make Mystical tutor good. One is Terminus and the second one is Entreet the Angels. It the player use MT to tutor for Vindicate to get rid of PW, I am pretty fine with that and I will not feel cheated. Tutoring for Terminus gives control decks fighting chance against agro and it is X for 2 so far as the card advantage goes. Agro needs to count with Wrath effects, so I would not complain here either.

Entreet is different story, but think, when Entreet is good (on how many mana). If the control player is under pressure it will rather goes for Terminus than Entreet in the first place. 5 mana Entreet is rather weak, 6 is usually manageble and 7 is like certain win. But we are talking about 6+ MANA spell and resolving this should allow some wins.

Don't get me wrong Mystical Tutor is great news for control decks(using white). But the world will not fall appart. It will allow to end games faster for control players, which is good thing.

---
True-name Nemesis - on the other hand I am quite disappointed, that TNN is not gone. Most anoyig and frustating card I have seen in long time. In agro vs agro matchup it is just nuts and almost with certainty it will decide the result of the game.

Imperial seal - with Mystical tutor gone from the banned list, I see no reason this not to unbanned. OK, it cost $$$ (I would not personaly buy that) but that is not reason to stay banned. What is the most broken play would you do on T2 spending your whole T1 with imperial seal? I would bet it is Oath of Druids, but for that we have Enlightment Tutor that is even more powerfull. Creature decks don't want it so far as I can tell acording to mtgpulse and occurence of Wordly tutor in them (which again is an instant speet tutor).


Banned list : I want to congratulate to the council, because the change of mulligan rule has completely killed all possible combos that existed in format. I see no resurgence of them that is comming. I used to play lot's of combo earlier, but now it seems that everything is dead(you can still play them, but it is hard to gain consistent results with it). I will do some more attempts, but I am very sceptical now.

pyyhttu

Quote from: Ball.LightningI used to play lot's of combo earlier, but now it seems that everything is dead(you can still play them, but it is hard to gain consistent results with it). I will do some more attempts, but I am very sceptical now.

Post the decks you run somewhere. I'd like to see what builds you're playing with, and if there's something to make them better.

Vazdru

all in all good analysis so far imo
i share your view on the format for the most part MMD !

thx Doks, MMD & Ball Lightning for your feedback
Far below the earth
Where the demons hunt the souls of those that sleep
In the city of the Vazdru and the Drin
Where the black flame burns inside the palace fountain.

Ball.Lightning

Quote from: pyyhttu on 18-04-2014, 12:15:54 PM
Quote from: Ball.LightningI used to play lot's of combo earlier, but now it seems that everything is dead(you can still play them, but it is hard to gain consistent results with it). I will do some more attempts, but I am very sceptical now.

Post the decks you run somewhere. I'd like to see what builds you're playing with, and if there's something to make them better.

I am glad you to ask. I was posting decklists on this forum through years - namely High Tide, Heart beat and Hulk combo. My last posts were before mulligen change and before Natural order bannings. Hulk combo lost lots with departure of Order and mulligen, but there might be way with Dark Depths, that I am trying to fit in. It is not finalized product and I will not feel comfortable to go to tournament with it (my inspiration came from one guy on cockatrice (sorry, I forgot his name) http://deckstats.net/deck-3861065-8659295c19599639c8fd8f1a941eff1a.html I have not corrected that decklist yet). My current Tide version is something like this, but I am unsure about some cards (Spell Snare, Noxious revival, Intuition, Repeal) - http://deckstats.net/deck-3968098-d216c33c6fdb913e60fd438379702a5b.html  Same story here, it is pretty weak against all sorts of fast agro decks. I have yet to find some sort of new incarnation of hearth beat deck, but I am not sure, I will find one. I am testing differents splashes.

Kenshin

As much as I hate the fact that TNN exists, I still do not see a viable reason to ban it. Not being fun is not one of them. There are a lot of brutally unfun cards that make the game about protecting them or getting them handled and they are harder to remove (Back to Basics, Blood Moon, Sylvan Library, Oath). Yet I hear no one being as adamant about banning them.

I think that unbanning Mystical Tutor reduces the variety in Blue-White Control Decks. Before the unbanning you could play Terminus and Entreat at your own risk because Personal Tutor was so clunky (giving away Information, waiting a turn). Now I feel you are forced to play this three card set because it is so damn strong. There still is no viable combo deck and this one Tutor will probably not make it better. I already dread EOT Tutor on Price of Progress from the UR Decks. There is nothing greedy in a balanced three-color Manabase with lots of nonbasics, yet those strategies are easily hosable. But PoP is an insane game ender that oftentimes deals 10 damage out of nowhere and wins otherwise unwinnable games. So you basically doubled the number of this card in the UR decks.

Unbanning Gifts would be pretty crazy in my opinion. The worst thing you get is an instant tutor that gets you 2 cards. The best thing is a card combination that either lets you grind out your opponent (Life from the Loam packages), lets you set up Reanimation with Unburial Rites and your silver bullet fatty or just gets you a graveyard based combo (Recurring Nightmare etc.). This card does way too many unfair things in this format Unbanning it would be a folly. The fact that it even is considered for unbanning makes me wonder who in the council lost his mind to suggest that and get through with it. I hope that person/these persons come back to their senses before they try to murder the format with this card.

Vazdru

Quote from: Kenshin on 19-04-2014, 04:02:28 AM
Unbanning Gifts would be pretty crazy in my opinion. The worst thing you get is an instant tutor that gets you 2 cards. The best thing is a card combination that either lets you grind out your opponent (Life from the Loam packages), lets you set up Reanimation with Unburial Rites and your silver bullet fatty or just gets you a graveyard based combo (Recurring Nightmare etc.). This card does way too many unfair things in this format Unbanning it would be a folly. The fact that it even is considered for unbanning makes me wonder who in the council lost his mind to suggest that and get through with it. I hope that person/these persons come back to their senses before they try to murder the format with this card.

the reasons behind this card is on the banned list for quite a long time now in condensed form ... but presented in harsh words and "latent" aggressive way  ::) i guess you should work on your skills like diplomacy and empathy mate ... ;)

if we wouldn't share your thoughts at least in basic principle this card would still be available so no need to blame us yet imo
Far below the earth
Where the demons hunt the souls of those that sleep
In the city of the Vazdru and the Drin
Where the black flame burns inside the palace fountain.

W0lf

1.Stall infinitly
2. Play gifts ungiven
3.????
4. Profit


Sounds fair to me.:-D

Kenshin

That was meant as a humoristic exaggeration. I just can not understant what the notion behind moving it to unban watchlist is. The card was banned for good reasons and I do not believe those reasons have become invalid by now. Control Decks seem strong enough to me. They do not steamroll everything but they are between fair and very good. No reason to unleash the devil to get rid of some demons.

Tabris

Well there is the misconception. I can assure you that Gifts was not banned for good reasons thats why I voted for an unban.

W0lf

I like were this is going, can someone here state any reasons why gifts should be unbanned/stay banned?

Tiggupiru

Quote from: Tabris on 19-04-2014, 07:23:18 PM
Well there is the misconception. I can assure you that Gifts was not banned for good reasons thats why I voted for an unban.

I think it was banned for good reasons, but I also feel that those reasons _might_ not be prevalent enough for it to be banned anymore. Time issues are a huge concern to me still, though. Unless you are going for straightforward combo and you aren't losing fast enough to execute a premeditated Gifts - pile, choosing four cards and trying to figure what you are going to get takes a ton of time even if you are a good and experienced player.

I also fear that introducing big changes to the banned list right now would be rather counterproductive. I mean, we have Tolarian Academy that is far from explored yet, we just got Mystical Tutor back in to the fray so there are loads of possibilities still unexplored and I really would rather wait and see what direction we head with the current system before making powerful cards like Gifts available.

Every once in a while there are also new cards coming from new sets and I am actually glad that the Theros block has been bad from the power-level perspective so that we can actually focus on figuring new mulligan and recent changes to the ban-list without Wizards introducing more game changers. HL just isn't popular enough for the metagame to mature as fast as these ban-list changes can happen. I mean, it can barely keep up with four sets a year + the special products even if most of the new cards aren't worth even a second glance.