Highlander Magic

MagicPlayer Highlander => Highlander Strategy => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tabris on 16-01-2014, 02:37:29 PM

Title: Canadian Highlander [Viclander]
Post by: Tabris on 16-01-2014, 02:37:29 PM
Hey guys

I want to draw your attention to another highlander format. Its called Viclander (since the community is located in Victoria, Canada) and their highlander format is pretty similiar to ours but they use a point list instead of a banlist and they play with P9.

I collected some information and want to share this with you.

General Info [Point List/History]: http://canadianhighlander.wordpress.com/

Video about their recent T8 Tournament made by me (I compare their lists with ours): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGaywD6WQbg

Twitch Channel [They recorded their T8 tournament]: http://de.twitch.tv/yjmagic/profile/pastBroadcasts
Title: Re: Canadian Highlander [Viclander]
Post by: Nastaboi on 16-01-2014, 07:27:34 PM
Seems insanely opening hand dependant. Games with Ancestral/Lotus/Sol Ring/Mox/Crypt in opening hand are dramatically different than ones without.
Title: Re: Canadian Highlander [Viclander]
Post by: ChristophO on 16-01-2014, 08:42:04 PM

Cards are on the banned list (of any format) because they are decided to be unhealthy for the format; because they do not work in a tournament setting, because they cause too many frustrating starts, because they win the game when drawn at almost any point of the game.

For example Stoneforge Mystic has been banned because especially a T2 Stoneforge Mystic has been decided to be too strong for the format. With Moxen in the format Stoneforge can even be played on T1. How is that seceuqne weakend by the absence of Jace? It is not weakened. This Point list pushes frustrating starts ands allows all sorts of utterly unfair. People do not lose once they resolve Birthing Pod or Survival (at least this why they have been banned here). Regulating format breaking cards with a point list is just really dumb in my eyes.

Creating a choice for how to wreck your opponent on T1 or T2 does not lead to better game play. Simply ban the silly offending cards an be done with it.
Title: Point List for Viclander
Post by: GoblinPiledriver on 16-01-2014, 08:47:51 PM
So there are 14 Points to give for every 100 cards a deck plays.


Here a point sorted list: (Green allowed in our format, red banned in our format)
Time Vault – 7
Ancestral Recall – 6
Time Walk – 6
Tinker – 6
Black Lotus – 6
Sol Ring – 6
Demonic Tutor – 5
Hermit Druid – 5
Birthing Pod – 4
Strip Mine – 4
Survival of the Fittest – 4
Skullclamp – 4
Vampiric Tutor – 4
Gifts Ungiven – 3
Imperial Seal – 3
Mox Emerald – 3
Mox Jet – 3
Mox Pearl – 3
Mox Ruby – 3
Mox Sapphire – 3
Mystical Tutor – 3
Library of Alexandria – 3
Price of Progress – 3
Protean Hulk – 3
Tolarian Academy – 3
Umezawa's Jitte – 2
Mishra's Workshop – 2
Balance – 2
Mana Crypt – 2
Mana Drain – 2
Mana Vault – 2
Intuition – 2
Wasteland – 2
Oath of Druids – 2
Recurring Nightmare – 2
Sensei's Divining Top – 2
Merchant Scroll – 2
Enlightened Tutor – 2
Fastbond – 2
Crucible of Worlds – 1
Goblin Recruiter – 1
Jace, the Mind Sculptor – 1
Mind Twist – 1
Moat – 1
Natural Order – 1
Scapeshift – 1
Stoneforge Mystic – 1
Wheel of Fortune – 1
Winter Orb – 1
Yawgmoth's Will – 1



Sorted for color:
White:
Balance – 2
Enlightened Tutor – 2
Moat – 1
Stoneforge Mystic – 1

Blue:
Ancestral Recall – 6
Time Walk – 6
Tinker – 6
Gifts Ungiven – 3
Mystical Tutor – 3
Mana Drain – 2
Intuition – 2
Merchant Scroll – 2
Jace, the Mind Sculptor – 1

Black:
Demonic Tutor – 5
Vampiric Tutor – 4
Imperial Seal – 3
Recurring Nightmare – 2
Mind Twist – 1
Yawgmoth's Will – 1

Red:
Price of Progress – 3
Goblin Recruiter – 1
Wheel of Fortune – 1

Green:
Hermit Druid – 5
Birthing Pod – 4
Survival of the Fittest – 4
Protean Hulk – 3
Oath of Druids – 2
Fastbond – 2
Natural Order – 1
Scapeshift – 1

Colorless:
Time Vault – 7
Black Lotus – 6
Sol Ring – 6
Skullclamp – 4
Strip Mine – 4
Mox Emerald – 3
Mox Jet – 3
Mox Pearl – 3
Mox Ruby – 3
Mox Sapphire – 3
Tolarian Academy – 3
Library of Alexandria – 3
Wasteland – 2
Umezawa's Jitte – 2
Mana Crypt – 2
Mana Vault – 2
Mishra's Workshop – 2
Sensei's Divining Top – 2
Crucible of Worlds – 1
Winter Orb – 1
Title: Re: Canadian Highlander [Viclander]
Post by: MMD on 17-01-2014, 09:47:20 AM
I agree with Nastaboi and ChristophO here. It can be very frustrating to play against the Power cards.

How is this system any better to an elaborated banned list? Most of the cards on our banned list are there for a very good reason.

1st turn Tinker into Blightsteel Colossus (and thousand other broken plays that are possible in this format) is just unfair.
Title: Re: Canadian Highlander [Viclander]
Post by: Tiggupiru on 17-01-2014, 01:51:01 PM
There is also Australian variant: http://mtgau.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=20&sid=25086980c26d4be7deb5af4062741091

They also prefer the points system, BUT is only 60 cards. Funnily enough, I feel that Aussies have a better format as the decks are much more consistent and opponent drawing those restricted cards at some point is almost expected so you need to prepare accordingly. They also have sideboards which again, kinda make sense in 60-card format, but I am not entirely sure how to feel about that.

Both of these formats kinda sound sweet to me, but I fear that the novelty would wear off quickly as there is not much you can do about your opponent peeling Sol Ring twice in a match.
Title: Re: Canadian Highlander [Viclander]
Post by: SirGalahad on 17-01-2014, 02:39:43 PM
To me it's just how you approach Highlander as a format. I remember some people in Germany were really frustrated to hear the magicplayer.org-rules didn't allow Power9 and such. Some people just like to do the unfair stuff and are ok with their opponent doing the same. Of course these games tend to be more one-sided with a broken start, but if this is ok for these guys and they have fun with it, why not?

At least they have the better mulligan...  ;)
Title: Re: Canadian Highlander [Viclander]
Post by: Nastaboi on 17-01-2014, 05:00:43 PM
Quote from: SirGalahad on 17-01-2014, 02:39:43 PM
At least they have the better mulligan...  ;)

Who has the better mulligan?
Title: Re: Canadian Highlander [Viclander]
Post by: orca- on 17-01-2014, 09:54:19 PM
What is the better mulligan?
Title: Re: Canadian Highlander [Viclander]
Post by: W0lf on 18-01-2014, 01:25:37 AM
The point list could be used as an addition to the ban list, other formats have banned and restricted lists too. You could point fetchlands for example or a bunch of other cards for precise balancing.
Title: Re: Canadian Highlander [Viclander]
Post by: haju on 18-01-2014, 02:53:15 PM
Even though the idea of a point list seems tempting, as one could control the strength of different archetypes even better I don't like it at all. As one allows some way over the top cards the format will become more dependent on the cards one draws (initially and during the game). Right now some players want to ban Mana Drain and Demonic Tutor because it looks like they can turn games around, with even more absurd cards this problem may become more and more present.

I think a card should never be banned because it's expensive moneywise, but allowing the P9 will make it even harder to enter the format and could be really crucial for our beloved format. Even if it's just because new players think that the need P9 to succeed.

Another fact I don't like about these lists is, that it's hard to validate whether a deck is legal or not. At my last HLGP I had an opponent with an unintentionally illegal deck as he had played a Tolarian Academy which was banned back then. He simply had to change the card and everything was good to go. With a point list it will be hard to see whether a deck contains 15 or 14 points. (Please keep in mind that I'm talking about unintentionally having an illegal decklist ;))
Title: Re: Canadian Highlander [Viclander]
Post by: Tiggupiru on 18-01-2014, 04:38:07 PM
Quote from: haju on 18-01-2014, 02:53:15 PM
I think a card should never be banned because it's expensive moneywise

Why is this, btw?

Banned list is in place to keep people playing or give players incentive to jump into a format and if that can be achieved keeping something like Imperial Seal banned, I am totally okay with that. I really don't see how does a flowchart type of banlist guideline would ever work to ensure the format stays healthy.
Title: Re: Canadian Highlander [Viclander]
Post by: haju on 18-01-2014, 05:10:27 PM
Card prices increase drastically and the question is where to draw the line. Is a card one can "easily" acquire for 275€ too expensive for the format. If so does that mean that a card needs to be banned as soon as there reach a specific price? I don't think so. Cards should be banned because of their power and only because of that. Personally I think Imperial Seal is banned for good, because it's a too good tutor right now.

Hypothetical, if there were a card, which would cost more than 275€ which would neither be broken, nor weak, which would be used in one specific deck type and is only good there but not even the best card or belonging to the best combination of cards in this deck type. Is there any reason to ban this card?

Quote from: Tiggupiru on 18-01-2014, 04:38:07 PM
Banned list is in place to keep people playing or give players incentive to jump into a format [...]
I totally agree with you, but it should be done because of the power of the cards, not their price.
Title: Re: Canadian Highlander [Viclander]
Post by: Nastaboi on 18-01-2014, 05:37:39 PM
Quote from: haju on 18-01-2014, 05:10:27 PM
Hypothetical, if there were a card, which would cost more than 275€ which would neither be broken, nor weak, which would be used in one specific deck type and is only good there but not even the best card or belonging to the best combination of cards in this deck type. Is there any reason to ban this card?
(http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=202578&type=card)
Title: Re: Canadian Highlander [Viclander]
Post by: Tiggupiru on 18-01-2014, 06:28:37 PM
Quote from: haju on 18-01-2014, 05:10:27 PM
Card prices increase drastically and the question is where to draw the line. Is a card one can "easily" acquire for 275€ too expensive for the format. If so does that mean that a card needs to be banned as soon as there reach a specific price? I don't think so. Cards should be banned because of their power and only because of that. Personally I think Imperial Seal is banned for good, because it's a too good tutor right now.

Hypothetical, if there were a card, which would cost more than 275€ which would neither be broken, nor weak, which would be used in one specific deck type and is only good there but not even the best card or belonging to the best combination of cards in this deck type. Is there any reason to ban this card?

My point was, drawing clear-cut lines is useless. If a card is deemed to be bad for the format, it should be banned. That is the only guideline that needs to be followed. If a card gets too expensive and council feels it should be banned maybe partly because of it, it should be banned. I mean, the card is probably expensive because it is so powerful anyway. I am not saying we should ban everything that fetches a certain number on the secondary market, I am saying it might as well be one of the criteria to consider because there is no reason not to.

The same goes for any card with any point of comparison: True-Name Nemesis might not fit into any existing reasons to ban a card. I mean, it's just a dude that attacks. This is just an example of a card that nobody knew Magic had the design space for before it got printed.

For example, let's say we would have guidelines to:

1) ban cards that people splash for as the only card of that color
2) good tutors
3) make a whole new deck that is oppressive to the format

TNN doesn't fall into any of those categories and we would need to add more or alter the guidelines (making them irrelevant as they could be changed at whim), or leave it unbanned (probably a bad thing for the format, we might even lose players because of it).

In short, for whatever the reason, if council thinks it's bad for the format, it should be banned. No matter what the reason is.
Title: Re: Canadian Highlander [Viclander]
Post by: SirGalahad on 18-01-2014, 10:18:46 PM
Quote from: Nastaboi on 17-01-2014, 05:00:43 PM

Who has the better mulligan?

I think the version of delayed paris-mulligan or whatever you call it, the canadians are using is strictly superior to the free mulligan rule. But that is with me disliking the free mulligan anyway. (not to be misunderstood, i still don't want the spoils-mulligan back ;) )
Title: Re: Canadian Highlander [Viclander]
Post by: ZeSword on 05-08-2015, 08:44:13 PM
I contacted guys from Canada, who began to send some top8s. Because it's more readable with card links rather than with just names on their blog, here are the first decklists from their format :

http://mtgtop8.com/format?f=CHL
Title: Re: Canadian Highlander [Viclander]
Post by: Dreamer on 04-09-2015, 11:30:11 AM
Those Pattern decks :O
Title: Re: Canadian Highlander [Viclander]
Post by: Tabris on 06-09-2015, 11:22:21 AM
What about them?
Title: Re: Canadian Highlander [Viclander]
Post by: Dreamer on 07-09-2015, 11:18:52 AM
I get to play Pattern with the fun cards again.
Title: Re: Canadian Highlander [Viclander]
Post by: Tabris on 07-09-2015, 11:53:58 AM
Pattern is quite a potent deck. I ve played it the last weeks and was very satisfied with the performance. We got a lot of new tools (evolutionary leap, sidisi, varolz)
Title: Re: Canadian Highlander [Viclander]
Post by: Nastaboi on 07-09-2015, 01:03:43 PM
Canadian Highlander featured in a podcast on channerfireball.com (http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/constructed-resources-canadian-highlander/).
Title: Re: Canadian Highlander [Viclander]
Post by: Tabris on 07-09-2015, 02:36:33 PM
http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/constructed-resources-canadian-highlander/
Title: Re: Canadian Highlander [Viclander]
Post by: Goblin-Diplomaten on 19-09-2015, 03:25:36 AM
They talked about maybe combining both formats (german+canadian HL) to make it more competitive?
What do you think of this? How would the format look like? Just include the power nine?
Title: Re: Canadian Highlander [Viclander]
Post by: Vazdru on 19-09-2015, 11:10:50 PM
Quote from: Goblin-Diplomaten on 19-09-2015, 03:25:36 AM
They talked about maybe combining both formats (german+canadian HL) to make it more competitive?
What do you think of this? How would the format look like? Just include the power nine?

hmmm - I'm skeptical
I don't see any basis to combine German HL with Commander, Viclander or Australian HL ... and it seems the respective communities think so too; at least noone ever asked us officially what we think about it
Title: Re: Canadian Highlander [Viclander]
Post by: ZeSword on 03-11-2015, 06:27:58 PM
You could view German Highlander as a specific case of Canadian Highlander where every banned card has 8 points and other cards have 0 points :p