Highlander Magic

MagicPlayer Highlander => Banned List & Rules => Topic started by: LasH on 10-04-2011, 12:47:37 PM



Title: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: LasH on 10-04-2011, 12:47:37 PM
Hi, i played the last highlander grand prix in frankfurt.

And you did a "poll/survey" about the current format. I forgot to do it, but i think its a great idea.

Do u think its possible to put the poll online for a limited time? This would also allow to get opinions from foreign players.

Thanks :-)


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Vazdru on 10-04-2011, 06:36:08 PM
Hi, i played the last highlander grand prix in frankfurt.

And you did a "poll/survey" about the current format. I forgot to do it, but i think its a great idea.

Do u think its possible to put the poll online for a limited time? This would also allow to get opinions from foreign players.

Thanks :-)

Yes i will. I have 31 responses yet, maybe a few more after next TNM in Karlsruhe. There will be the possibility to fill out the survey in this forum too.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: MMD on 15-04-2011, 02:38:35 PM
As long as the announced online poll is not up I will post here.

My proposal would be:

UNBAN

Entomb – Is banned because….what? Entomb/Animate target creature is fine for me. This is a cheap two card combo which does not safely win in every situation. I don’t see a big difference to Hexmage/Depth or Foundry/Sword which are no more than mediocre in the Format. In theory this can be insanely good, but how often will this work in real life? It’s still a two card combo.
Supporting graveyard strategies without Loam in the format is fine for me. Nearly nobody plays Graveyard hate at the moment, because there is no necessity.

Trinisphere – similar explanation. Another cheap two card combo which does not win the game for sure and is only game breaking when you play this very early in the game.

What is the probability to have Entomb/Animate spell, Trinisphere/3Mana on turn 1-2? How good are these card combinations later in the game? I don’t think they are ban worthy

BAN

Mana Drain – one card combo, played round 2-3 is “good game”
Natural Order – see above
Oath of Druids  - see above
(please don’t argue that this needs  a big spell in your hand – green creature on the board – creature on opponents side)
Demonic Tutor –  see above, just one round later with the advantage to be more flexible (insert random “I win in this specific board situation” card here). Nearly every deck can afford to splash it. I would even splash it in MonoR Goblins :-O
.
.
.
Fetchlands – BOOM! Now I came out. No retreat possible. I’m serious. No drugs involved.

After you finished laughing and have calmed down, start to think about it open minded. Forget your beloved multicoloured pet deck and take an objective look from above. Fetching and shuffling is the most annoying, joy killing and time eating aspect of our format. I Vote for: EOT belongs to instants. No fetch nuisance any more!

Also splashing certain cards with nearly no drawback (Hello Demonic Tutor!) leads to uniform, boring and stupid deck building, disregarding the colour pie. Best examples are the good stuff decks (including Bant and Naya) which are DTB in the format for a long time.

Going back to the roots looks fun for me:
If you want to play aggro, take your RDW, Gobbos, WW, Boros, RG beats
Loving midrange? Go for GW Creature toolbox or GB Rock
Want to be Aggrocontrol? Build your UG or Skies deck.
Like to play control? Metagame your UX list.
What to cast the BIG spells? What about Gx Ramp or 2-3C Staxx
Don´ like to cast them fair? Sleeve in your UB reanimator or Elves deck!
Are you the Combo player? Vote for unbanning Tolarian Academy and Yawgmoth´s Will J

Let the flame war begin…


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Kassow-Rossing on 16-04-2011, 12:12:04 AM
UNBAN
Entomb
Trinisphere

BAN
Mana Drain
Natural Order
Oath of Druids
Demonic Tutor
Fetchlands

Agree on Entomb, Trinisphere, Mana Drain, Demonic Tutor.
Disagree on Natural Order, Oath of Druids.
Fetch lands are really much more up for discussion because they do allow for the control player to stay in the format even though Flooded Strand never should be able to fetch Plateau, which is just wrong on every level. The shuffling is annoying too!

Entomb, agree!
Trinisphere, agree it doesn't do that much hurt to this format compared to any other non-singleton format. Not enough in my opinion.
Mana Drain, yes too good to be true.
Demonic Tutor, yes too good to be true and also very splash-able.
Natural Order, I can't see why this card should be even near the ban list. You can counter it, you can remove the creature. Many reasons why this is just a poor card, that CAN be played in the right deck.
Oath of Druids, no this card is not near powerful enough and it allows for the some control decks to have som fun games. It used to be really good but it is just hurt by Qasali Pridemage and the likes.
That is my opinion.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Mythrandir on 16-04-2011, 12:19:07 AM
As long as the announced online poll is not up I will post here.

My proposal would be:

UNBAN

Entomb – Is banned because….what? Entomb/Animate target creature is fine for me. This is a cheap two card combo which does not safely win in every situation. I don’t see a big difference to Hexmage/Depth or Foundry/Sword which are no more than mediocre in the Format. In theory this can be insanely good, but how often will this work in real life? It’s still a two card combo.
Supporting graveyard strategies without Loam in the format is fine for me. Nearly nobody plays Graveyard hate at the moment, because there is no necessity.


This is a two card combo, which one of the cards being highly redundant. Specially now with all the good incredible fatties.

Comparing this to hexmage + dark is surreal. The token can be bounced, STPed, mazed, chump blocked by BOP. Not to mention, again, the redundancy of one of the combos pieces in entomb, meaning depts + hex is harder to get in early turns.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: MMD on 16-04-2011, 07:33:40 AM
Oath/Order:
I agree that the decks have adopted and have more solutions for Oath of Druids/Natural Order and/or are too fast for it. But still - facing them T2-3 is just unfun and unbalanced and nearly impossible to beat. I can agree that they do not directly go to the list of banned cards but they should at least be observed for the sake of a healthy format and should be mentioned on the watch list to show the players that the council understands the powerlevel. The same goes for Drain and Demonic if they do not get the banhammer.

Entomb:
The three combos are not compareable as they do different things in different decks. I used it as a lead for the discussion. However, I can certainly also find a couple of examples where Hex/Depth is the better combo and in a meta of full of plainswalkers I also think that the Hexmage is quite redundant but this is not the point. The question for me is, how will the format look like with Entomb in? The card will solely strengthen Reanimator which is IMO acceptable as I do not see that this will put Reanimator over the top.

Reanimator will be just another Tier1 contender together with some other decks. The good thing would be that the dominating aggro decks have to face a new enemy which is hard to come by with "only" curving the good stuff. Control decks can much better adopt to a metagame and can easily be built to beat a aggro/reanimator meta. Splahing graveyard hate is much easier in control decks as they already have a reactive strategy. Also some cards in control decks are already capable to beat aggro & reanimator strategies (e.g. Wrath of God).








Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Mythrandir on 16-04-2011, 11:43:17 AM
Also some cards in control decks are already capable to beat aggro & reanimator strategies (e.g. Wrath of God).


Unfortunately, even a 4 turn WOG, most of the times, doesn't stop aggro.

Also, i really don't see any redundant cards (playable) for the hexmage part of the combo, unlike reanimation cards.

Also, i don't understand that you want to unban entomb, but then ban oath. I find oath to be a lot less broken than entomb, but that's just my opinion, let's see if any other players comment on this.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Vazdru on 16-04-2011, 01:17:04 PM
This questionnaire has been distributed to the participants of the 8th HL GP in Frankfurt (02.04.11). It's almost the same one I used  at HL Gp No. 6 a few years before.

Online players are invited to take part in this survey (just quote and fill in). The analysis will be reported here soon.


German Version:

@ HIGHLANDER COMMUNITY

Name:___________________________________________________________________


Fragebogen zur Banned-List

•   Ancestral Recall
•   Balance
•   Black Lotus
•   Buried Alive
•   Cephalid Illusionist
•   Chaos Orb
•   Dread Return
•   Enlightened Tutor
•   Entomb
•   Falling Star
•   Fastbond
•   Flash
•   Grindstone
•   Imperial Seal
•   Library of Alexandria
•   Life from the Loam
•   Lion's Eye Diamond
•   Mana Crypt
•   Mana Vault
•   Memory Jar
•   Mind Twist   
•   Mox Emerald
•   Mox Jet
•   Mox Pearl
•   Mox Ruby
•   Mox Sapphire
•   Mystical Tutor
•   Skullclamp
•   Sol Ring
•   Strip Mine
•   Survival of the Fittest
•   Tolarian Academy
•   Time Vault
•   Time Walk
•   Tinker
•   Trinisphere
•   Umezawa's Jitte
•   Vampiric Tutor
•   Wheel of Fortune
•   Yawgmoth's Will   Alle Ante-Karten:
•   Amulet of Quoz
•   Bronze Tablet
•   Contract from Below
•   Darkpact
•   Demonic Attorney
•   Jeweled Bird
•   Rebirth
•   Tempest Efreet
•   Timmerian Fiends
Weiterhin sind alle Karten aus den Editionen "Unglued" und "Unhinged" mit Ausnahme der Basic Lands banned.
Folgende silberrandige Karten sind ebenfalls banned:
•   Evil Presents
•   Fruitcake Elemental
•   Gifts Given



Wie bewertest Du die Banned-Liste auf einer Skala von 1 bis 10 (1=grottig, 10=super)?

__________

Wie bewertest Du die Mulligan-Regel auf einer Skala von 1 bis 10?

__________

Wie oft spielst Du Highlander nach den mp.org-Regeln durchschnittlich

   Mehrmals wöchentlich

   Einmal die Woche

   Einmal im Monat
   
   Nur bei größeren Turnieren

Wie häufig warst Du schon bei einem HL-GP?

___________

Welche Karten fehlen Deiner Meinung nach auf der aktuellen Banned-Liste? (max. die wichtigsten 5, wenn möglich mit kurzer Begründung)

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

Welche Karten würdest Du von der Banned-Liste streichen? (max. die wichtigsten 5, wenn möglich mit kurzer Begründung)

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

Wärst Du beim 9. HL GP wieder dabei? Wenn ja, wie viel Kilometer würdest Du max. dafür fahren? (einfache Strecke)

_____________


Er soll einen GP in der Slowakei geben. Würdest Du dorthin fahren, wenn der Preissupport stimmt? Wenn ja, was willst Du haben als Turniersieger?

__________________________________________________________________________





Translation:

@ HIGHLANDER COMMUNITY

Name:___________________________________________________________________


Questionnaire for MTG Banned List (valid due 15.10.2008, see below)

•   Ancestral Recall
•   Balance
•   Black Lotus
•   Buried Alive
•   Cephalid Illusionist
•   Chaos Orb
•   Dread Return
•   Enlightened Tutor
•   Entomb
•   Falling Star
•   Fastbond
•   Flash
•   Grindstone
•   Imperial Seal
•   Library of Alexandria
•   Life from the Loam
•   Lion's Eye Diamond
•   Mana Crypt
•   Mana Vault
•   Memory Jar
•   Mind Twist   
•   Mox Emerald
•   Mox Jet
•   Mox Pearl
•   Mox Ruby
•   Mox Sapphire
•   Mystical Tutor
•   Skullclamp
•   Sol Ring
•   Strip Mine
•   Survival of the Fittest
•   Tolarian Academy
•   Time Vault
•   Time Walk
•   Tinker
•   Trinisphere
•   Umezawa's Jitte
•   Vampiric Tutor
•   Wheel of Fortune
•   Yawgmoth's Will   Alle Ante-Karten:
•   Amulet of Quoz
•   Bronze Tablet
•   Contract from Below
•   Darkpact
•   Demonic Attorney
•   Jeweled Bird
•   Rebirth
•   Tempest Efreet
•   Timmerian Fiends
•   Evil Presents
•   Fruitcake Elemental
•   Gifts Given

How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?

__________

How do you rate the highlander mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?

__________

How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules) in average

   several times weekly

   once per week

   one per month
   
   only (big) tournaments (like GP)

How often have you played on a HL-GP?

___________

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________


Thanks a lot for participance!

Helpful suggestions are welcome!

_____________________________________________________________________________

_____________________________________________________________________________


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: MMD on 16-04-2011, 02:21:03 PM
Unfortunately, even a 4 turn WOG, most of the times, doesn't stop aggro.

Also, i really don't see any redundant cards (playable) for the hexmage part of the combo, unlike reanimation cards.

Also, i don't understand that you want to unban entomb, but then ban oath. I find oath to be a lot less broken than entomb, but that's just my opinion, let's see if any other players comment on this.

If you have nothing else then 4th turn WoG you either play a bad deck or made a bad mulligan decision.

Entomb is not on the same power level because Oath of Druids is a two mana one card semi-combo. That Oath needs a creature to trigger is no valid counter-argument. A card with which reads: "Wrath of Druids - G1 Enchtantment - Destroy all creatures, creatures cannot be played" is not too shabby for a control deck.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Helle on 16-04-2011, 02:30:57 PM
Quote
Wie bewertest Du die Banned-Liste auf einer Skala von 1 bis 10 (1=grottig, 10=super)?
7

Wie bewertest Du die Mulligan-Regel auf einer Skala von 1 bis 10?
8

Wie oft spielst Du Highlander nach den mp.org-Regeln durchschnittlich

   Mehrmals wöchentlich

Wie häufig warst Du schon bei einem HL-GP?
0

Welche Karten fehlen Deiner Meinung nach auf der aktuellen Banned-Liste? (max. die wichtigsten 5, wenn möglich mit kurzer Begründung)

Goblin Swine-Rider (http://magiccards.info/vi/en/81.html) as it's got the most incredible art ever!!11!

Don't think anything needs to get banned right now. Mana Drain got an insane power level, but I think it's fine. There are some cards (Oath, Natural Order)to watch carefully, though.


Welche Karten würdest Du von der Banned-Liste streichen? (max. die wichtigsten 5, wenn möglich mit kurzer Begründung)

Entomb (Entomb is probably a very restricted tutor for combo, but a good card for reanimator. With Life from the Loam gone I cannot see that much abuse)

Buried Alive (Don't think that combo will rise that much by unbanning it, but maybe reanimator would play it. It needs to be tested first in order not to boost Hulk too much)

Enlightened Tutor (The dominant Survival is gone and I think it is just fine to punish multicolored decks by fetching B2B/Blood Moon. I don't see the problem that aggrodecks get an tutor for Winter Orb.)

Wärst Du beim 9. HL GP wieder dabei? Wenn ja, wie viel Kilometer würdest Du max. dafür fahren? (einfache Strecke)
100 km


Er soll einen GP in der Slowakei geben. Würdest Du dorthin fahren, wenn der Preissupport stimmt? Wenn ja, was willst Du haben als Turniersieger?
nein



Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: LasH on 16-04-2011, 02:41:58 PM
This questionnaire has been distributed to the participants of the 8th HL GP in Frankfurt (02.04.11). It's almost the same one I used  at HL Gp No. 6 a few years before.

Online players are invited to take part in this survey (just quote and fill in). The analysis will be reported here soon.


German Version:

@ HIGHLANDER COMMUNITY

Name: LasH


Fragebogen zur Banned-List

•   Ancestral Recall
•   Balance
•   Black Lotus
•   Buried Alive
•   Cephalid Illusionist
•   Chaos Orb
•   Dread Return
•   Enlightened Tutor
•   Entomb
•   Falling Star
•   Fastbond
•   Flash
•   Grindstone
•   Imperial Seal
•   Library of Alexandria
•   Life from the Loam
•   Lion's Eye Diamond
•   Mana Crypt
•   Mana Vault
•   Memory Jar
•   Mind Twist   
•   Mox Emerald
•   Mox Jet
•   Mox Pearl
•   Mox Ruby
•   Mox Sapphire
•   Mystical Tutor
•   Skullclamp
•   Sol Ring
•   Strip Mine
•   Survival of the Fittest
•   Tolarian Academy
•   Time Vault
•   Time Walk
•   Tinker
•   Trinisphere
•   Umezawa's Jitte
•   Vampiric Tutor
•   Wheel of Fortune
•   Yawgmoth's Will   Alle Ante-Karten:
•   Amulet of Quoz
•   Bronze Tablet
•   Contract from Below
•   Darkpact
•   Demonic Attorney
•   Jeweled Bird
•   Rebirth
•   Tempest Efreet
•   Timmerian Fiends
Weiterhin sind alle Karten aus den Editionen "Unglued" und "Unhinged" mit Ausnahme der Basic Lands banned.
Folgende silberrandige Karten sind ebenfalls banned:
•   Evil Presents
•   Fruitcake Elemental
•   Gifts Given



Wie bewertest Du die Banned-Liste auf einer Skala von 1 bis 10 (1=grottig, 10=super)?

9

Wie bewertest Du die Mulligan-Regel auf einer Skala von 1 bis 10?

6 (Spoil mulligan should have a restriction, 6 cards is to much)

Wie oft spielst Du Highlander nach den mp.org-Regeln durchschnittlich


X   Mehrmals wöchentlich
   
Wie häufig warst Du schon bei einem HL-GP?

2

Welche Karten fehlen Deiner Meinung nach auf der aktuellen Banned-Liste? (max. die wichtigsten 5, wenn möglich mit kurzer Begründung)

Quasali Pridemage (to mighty 2 drop in highlander, much to flexible creature, to many cheap options to get him (sylvan tutor, wordly tutor, green zenith, eladamri's call, fauna shaman <=2cc) , weakens any control deck to much)

or


The green tutor's (worldy tutor, Green Zenith, Eladamri's call, sylvan tutor) - makes any aggro deck to flexible, always finding the perfect answer in a creature, enabling to much toolbox features, which makes aggro/control simply the best archetype in the format.

Maybe Gifts Ungiven - to flexible, to easy to splash, always cards advantage in the best possible way.

Maybe SDT - Slows down any game, auto-include in nearly every deck, which makes any deck slower (in playtime).

Welche Karten würdest Du von der Banned-Liste streichen? (max. die wichtigsten 5, wenn möglich mit kurzer Begründung)

Memory Jar (Unban - alrdy happend)

Yawgmoth's Will (Watchlist) - Also allowed in singleton without problems
or
Tolarian Academy (Watchlist) - Stax is no more tier 1 even with TA. Possible problematic with combo decks. Test's needed. Also i would not unban it, if my suggested ban's take off.

Buried Alive - Simply because i miss that card in my reanimator.

Wärst Du beim 9. HL GP wieder dabei? Wenn ja, wie viel Kilometer würdest Du max. dafür fahren? (einfache Strecke)

250 km


Er soll einen GP in der Slowakei geben. Würdest Du dorthin fahren, wenn der Preissupport stimmt? Wenn ja, was willst Du haben als Turniersieger?

I would not participate, to far.



Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: ChristophO on 16-04-2011, 03:19:59 PM

German Version:

@ HIGHLANDER COMMUNITY

Name:__Christoph O._________________________________________________________________


Wie bewertest Du die Banned-Liste auf einer Skala von 1 bis 10 (1=grottig, 10=super)?

____8______

Wie bewertest Du die Mulligan-Regel auf einer Skala von 1 bis 10?

____3______

Wie oft spielst Du Highlander nach den mp.org-Regeln durchschnittlich

   Mehrmals wöchentlich

x   Einmal die Woche

   Einmal im Monat
   
   Nur bei größeren Turnieren

Wie häufig warst Du schon bei einem HL-GP?

____2_______

Welche Karten fehlen Deiner Meinung nach auf der aktuellen Banned-Liste? (max. die wichtigsten 5, wenn möglich mit kurzer Begründung)

Progenitus  OR

Natural Order

(assuming the mirror, the first person drawing Bribery or NO in a stall simply wins)

Welche Karten würdest Du von der Banned-Liste streichen? (max. die wichtigsten 5, wenn möglich mit kurzer Begründung)

Yawgmoth's Will (there is not enough fast mana avaiable to truely break YW)

Tolarian Academy merits testing at least (but is a card that will be built around; I hope it would not be too strong)


Wärst Du beim 9. HL GP wieder dabei? Wenn ja, wie viel Kilometer würdest Du max. dafür fahren? (einfache Strecke)

_____600 (when friends come as well)________


Er soll einen GP in der Slowakei geben. Würdest Du dorthin fahren, wenn der Preissupport stimmt? Wenn ja, was willst Du haben als Turniersieger?

____too far from Hamburg ;-) maybe if it would be a side event of a "real" GP (hey one can dream!)




Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Kristian on 16-04-2011, 05:52:04 PM
@ HIGHLANDER COMMUNITY

Name: Kristian K.

Questionnaire for MTG Banned List (valid due 15.10.2008, see below)

•   Ancestral Recall
•   Balance
•   Black Lotus
•   Buried Alive
•   Cephalid Illusionist
•   Chaos Orb
•   Dread Return
•   Enlightened Tutor
•   Entomb
•   Falling Star
•   Fastbond
•   Flash
•   Grindstone
•   Imperial Seal
•   Library of Alexandria
•   Life from the Loam
•   Lion's Eye Diamond
•   Mana Crypt
•   Mana Vault
•   Memory Jar
•   Mind Twist   
•   Mox Emerald
•   Mox Jet
•   Mox Pearl
•   Mox Ruby
•   Mox Sapphire
•   Mystical Tutor
•   Skullclamp
•   Sol Ring
•   Strip Mine
•   Survival of the Fittest
•   Tolarian Academy
•   Time Vault
•   Time Walk
•   Tinker
•   Trinisphere
•   Umezawa's Jitte
•   Vampiric Tutor
•   Wheel of Fortune
•   Yawgmoth's Will   Alle Ante-Karten:
•   Amulet of Quoz
•   Bronze Tablet
•   Contract from Below
•   Darkpact
•   Demonic Attorney
•   Jeweled Bird
•   Rebirth
•   Tempest Efreet
•   Timmerian Fiends
•   Evil Presents
•   Fruitcake Elemental
•   Gifts Given

How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?

8

How do you rate the highlander mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?

9

How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules) in average

   several times weekly

How often have you played on a HL-GP?

Never

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

None that I can think of.

Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

Dread Return
Mystical Tutor
Survoval of the fittest

It's my opinon that none of the listed cards would be terribly broken in my current meta. Good? Yes. Powerful? Yes! But not meta-warpingly broken.


Thanks a lot for participance!

Helpful suggestions are welcome!

I see some complaints about shuffling now and then, but I disagree with them because I believe that it's a matter of routine (both learning to shuffle efficiently and quickly with a 100 card deck, but also learning how to play your deck, knowing what solution you pick in which situations (tutors) and how to fix your manabase (fetchlands)).

I must admit that I'm quite contend with the current ban list, even though I'm tired of losing to Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek combo every now and then ;).


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Tiggupiru on 16-04-2011, 07:59:49 PM
@ HIGHLANDER COMMUNITY

Name: Tiggupiru / Janne Öhman


How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?

8 (Nothing is broken, and the format is enjoyable, but there are lot of stuff I am still unsure or simply disagree with)

How do you rate the highlander mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?

9,5 (one of the better reasons to play this format)

How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules) in average

* several times weekly

How often have you played on a HL-GP?

Never. Still waiting for GP Helsinki :(

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

Gifts Ungiven (Gives sick advantage, takes time to resolve and banning this would make some of the cards that are deemed "problematic" weak enough to be fair. Too easy to splash)

Demonic Tutor (Love the card, but I play it every deck simply because of fetches and sick power level)

Sensei's Diving Top (Problematic in tournaments because of time issues, no reason not to play this in every deck. Love this in MonoR burn even)

Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

Life from the Loam (I think this is not a very good card in most decks, unless the MU and the situation favors it. In Germany where everyone and their mother play 4-5c goodstuff, this might be a really absurd card. Difference of metagame interpretations, I guess. In past, I've always been happy when my opponent plays this)

Enlightened Tutor (Demonic is way better than this)

Mystical Tutor (Ditto)

Yawgmoth's Will (Breaks absolutely nothing. Is good in storm decks, but only after they've accumulated critical mass, and just look for a way to win. Would be cool to play with)

Buried Alive (Gives access to a combo that can be disrupted with any red instant, bounce, removal, GY hate, counterspells + whole list of currently popular cards that mess with this. Not to mention, it's just wrong not to give players the opportunity to test this combo)

Helpful suggestions are welcome!

Good job overall, format is fun and that is what ultimately matters.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Mythrandir on 16-04-2011, 10:23:29 PM
@ HIGHLANDER COMMUNITY

Name:_Mythrandir__________________________________________________________________


Questionnaire for MTG Banned List (valid due 15.10.2008, see below)

•   Ancestral Recall
•   Balance
•   Black Lotus
•   Buried Alive
•   Cephalid Illusionist
•   Chaos Orb
•   Dread Return
•   Enlightened Tutor
•   Entomb
•   Falling Star
•   Fastbond
•   Flash
•   Grindstone
•   Imperial Seal
•   Library of Alexandria
•   Life from the Loam
•   Lion's Eye Diamond
•   Mana Crypt
•   Mana Vault
•   Memory Jar
•   Mind Twist   
•   Mox Emerald
•   Mox Jet
•   Mox Pearl
•   Mox Ruby
•   Mox Sapphire
•   Mystical Tutor
•   Skullclamp
•   Sol Ring
•   Strip Mine
•   Survival of the Fittest
•   Tolarian Academy
•   Time Vault
•   Time Walk
•   Tinker
•   Trinisphere
•   Umezawa's Jitte
•   Vampiric Tutor
•   Wheel of Fortune
•   Yawgmoth's Will   Alle Ante-Karten:
•   Amulet of Quoz
•   Bronze Tablet
•   Contract from Below
•   Darkpact
•   Demonic Attorney
•   Jeweled Bird
•   Rebirth
•   Tempest Efreet
•   Timmerian Fiends
•   Evil Presents
•   Fruitcake Elemental
•   Gifts Given

How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?

9

How do you rate the highlander mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?

5 (IMO, initial hands should be based solely on luck + deckbuilding skills)

How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules) in average

   several times weekly

   once per week

   one per month
   
   only (big) tournaments (like GP)

How often have you played on a HL-GP?

Never___________

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

Timetwister VS imperial seal causes me some confusion (money issues)

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

Wouldn't mind if some of the oldies got tested (not unbanned, TESTED) (TA, trinisphere, etc) because the meta
now is so differente than a couple of years ago.

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________



_____________________________________________________________________________

_____________________________________________________________________________


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: PurlQg on 17-04-2011, 02:59:10 AM
@ HIGHLANDER COMMUNITY
Name:purlQg / Alex, from Denmark_________________________________________________


Questionnaire for MTG Banned List (valid due 15.10.2008, see below)


•   Ancestral Recall
•   Balance
•   Black Lotus
•   Buried Alive
•   Chaos Orb
•   Dread Return
•   Enlightened Tutor
•   Entomb
•   Falling Star
•   Fastbond
•   Flash
•   Grindstone
•   Imperial Seal
•   Library of Alexandria
•   Life from the Loam
•   Lion's Eye Diamond
•   Mana Crypt
•   Mana Vault
•   Mind Twist   
•   Mox Emerald
•   Mox Jet
•   Mox Pearl
•   Mox Ruby
•   Mox Sapphire
•   Mystical Tutor
•   Skullclamp
•   Sol Ring
•   Strip Mine
•   Survival of the Fittest
•   Tolarian Academy
•   Time Vault
•   Time Walk
•   Tinker
•   Trinisphere
•   Umezawa's Jitte
•   Vampiric Tutor
•   Wheel of Fortune
•   Yawgmoth's Will   Alle Ante-Karten:
•   Amulet of Quoz
•   Bronze Tablet
•   Contract from Below
•   Darkpact
•   Demonic Attorney
•   Jeweled Bird
•   Rebirth
•   Tempest Efreet
•   Timmerian Fiends
•   Evil Presents
•   Fruitcake Elemental
•   Gifts Given

How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?
8,5

How do you rate the highlander mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?
9 – I love it

How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules) in average
Once per week

How often have you played on a HL-GP?
I am a fairly new Highlander player, the GP is in Germany so never

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)
Many people suggest cards like Demonic Tutor and Gifts, I say no because these cards would limit the possibility of playing combo – I feel the combo decks have it hard enough already.
If you were to ban DT and Gifts, then please unban mystical and enlightened – if not you just make combo even more impossible…

The Green creature tutors could be banned – the format is moving to a more creature driven, this would balance some of it out, and mostly help the combo decks with this MU – not able to fetch Quasali or Teeg or any other creature answer with your 4 creature only tutors would make combo more doable.

Qasali Pride-Mage is to good a creature in the current meta. 2 mana for a 2/2 with 1 mana disenchant and a extra ability – that’s sick. With the current meta this guy could potentially be banned.

Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

Trinisphere – not as powerful as it used to be, only playable in lockdown and this deck is not as strong as it used to be, it totally depends on your opening hand, and is a useless late game card, if you are able to cast it turn 3 and not earlier it’s utter useless most the majority of the current field.

Yawgmoth’s Will – great in mono black, which isn’t played, potentially useable in combo, other than that not important. I feel this card would be a no brainer to unban.

Thanks a lot for participance!

Helpful suggestions are welcome!

Great with this questionnaire – nice to know your being heard


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Ball.Lightning on 17-04-2011, 11:06:08 PM
@ HIGHLANDER COMMUNITY

Name:Ball.Lightning__________________________________________________________________


*How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?

9

*How do you rate the highlander mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?

8 (prevents unluck factor)

*How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules) in average

 2-3 per week

*How often have you played on a HL-GP?

Never

*Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)
Oath of druids - this card can by itself win the game. Noninteractive card.
Mishra Workshop - one land to produce 3 mana for single taping? This cant be fair by miles.
Shahrazad - WTF card. If u are afraid of time issues, why is this card not banned?

*Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

Trinisphere - i realy do not fear of T1 trini lock - familiar with it from legacy - without workshop it would be far less powerfull.
Loam of the Loam - my favourite card. Prefer to have this awailable, than intuition for example.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Nyytti on 17-04-2011, 11:08:16 PM
Heyho. I just basically registered here to answer the questionnaire about the banned list while we wait for the online poll.
This format is very dear to me, and I'd like to at least give my opinion on it. Who knows, it might have a positive impact on the future of the banned list. ::) I also want to say that all of the bannings and unbannings should be discussed further and more openly.

How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?
7. The format is, as said above, very enjoyable, but I do have some small critique about it.

How do you rate the highlander mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?
9. No complaint whatsoever.

How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules) in average?
Once per week on average, sometimes more, sometimes less.

How often have you played on a HL-GP?
Never.

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)
1. Gifts Ungiven, hands down. It's too splashable, it does take a lot of time to resolve (most of the times people playing it curse by themselves on how annoying the spell is to play). Also, unbanning this card would make some other cards, eg. Life from the Loam less problematic and perhaps unbannable. I can't recall a single game I've won after a resolved gifts by the opponent.

2. Demonic Tutor. It's too much of an autoinclude for pretty much any deck. It's also very splashable. Extremely powerful card.

3. Sensei's Divining Top. Not really too problematic, but it does consume a lot of time. It's also an autoinclude in pretty much every deck.

4. Mana Drain. The card is broken in half. An early game Mana Drain does indeed spell GG for the most part, at least from my experience.
I understand that there is a popular belief that aggro is dominating the format, and banning this card would push the format towards an unhealthy direction, but I heavily disagree. Can't say my opinion isn't biased, since I do hail from the control-heavy meta of Finland. :)

Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)
1. Life From the Loam. The only times I saw this card as too powerful was when it was fetched via Gifts Ungiven (wink wink nudge nudge).

2. Enlightened Tutor. I understand this card was partly banned because of Survival of the Fittest? Shouldn't be too problematic anymore. The same goes for Mystical Tutor. Banning Gifts would also make these less problematic!

The idea to ban fetchlands is at least interesting and worth discussing.

Yawgmoth's Will, Entomb and Buried Alive do not seem format-breaking to me, but I have no real personal experience about them. I think it would be smart to test these out, for example by unbanning them for a short period of time to see what people think.

Edited to make the post clearer.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Kassow-Rossing on 18-04-2011, 09:44:20 AM
Name: Patrick, Denmark

How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?
7. The format looks healthy but some things could be changed for the better in my opinion.


How do you rate the highlander mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?
10. The way Commander mulligans is great too but this seems like the best for every one.


How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules) in average?
Several times a week and three monthly tournaments.


How often have you played on a HL-GP?
Never, it's in Germany.


Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)
1. Gifts Ungiven. I think this card is too strong and it is really easy to splash it too. Banning this card also leads to unbanning the unpowered Life from the Loam, which only is on the ban list due to Gifts Ungiven and Intuition.

2. Intuition. Remember this is only my opinion and feel free to feel otherwise yourself. I really think Gifts should be banned purely because of power scales, so if Gifts is gone: Should Intuition or LftL be banned? I say Intuition because none of the cards are any powerful but having both in the format is troublesome. Intuition is also the boring of the two. Please help me here Council.

3. Demonic Tutor. This card is not only the best tutor in the game and format but it can also go in any Mono Green or Mono Red deck due to the fetch lands and dual lands. I'm having a really hard time explaining to people why this card isn't banned since I'm practically the only guy participating here online. I'm fine with the card but people are really confused and I think they have the right to be.


Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why?
1. Life From the Loam. I don't think this card will be any powerful without Gifts Ungiven and Intuition. This card should not get unbanned if Gifts Ungiven doesn't get banned.

2. Trinisphere. I don't think this card will be remotely useful in this format even with Mishra's Workshop. I understand if people disagree, but I really can't see any existing deck playing it. Not even Staxx.

I think the following cards should be tested but I have no experiences with them myself:
Yawgmoth's Will, Entomb, Tolarian Academy and Buried Alive.

Be well


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: SpoCk0nd0pe on 18-04-2011, 04:30:01 PM
Sorry to be such a disturbance but I strongly disagree with the posts about unbanning mirage tutors and banning gifts/demonic.

Mirage tutors are just way way more powerful then demonic or gifts. Simply because they deal with the main threat to combo: discard. Plus they virtually cost no mana compared to 2 (quite much) or 4 (hilariously much).


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Syras on 19-04-2011, 10:44:26 AM

Name: Syras


How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?

8

How do you rate the highlander mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?

6

I do not like it that Players can improve ALL of their starting hands (even acceptable ones) without any cost.
I think players should be rewarded for good deckbuilding that leads to more consistent decks which need to mulligan less. When i see control decks playing 33 mana producing lands (equals 20 lands in a 60 card deck) i always think that this should not be possible. As much as i hate the EDH/commander format i really think the EDH-mulligan (which is basically a mix between traditional Paris- and HL-Mulligan) is a good idea!

How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules) in average

   once per week

How often have you played on a HL-GP?

never

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

Demonic Tutor: There is a reason why this card is restricted in Vintage. In a 100card singleton format this card is even MORE powerfull. People are complaining about the good creature Tutors in aggro decks, which make the aggro decks so flexible. But Demonic is even more powerfull. I think if this card was green or white it would have been banned long time ago since not many HL decks play black as one of their main colors and therefore have to splash for Demonic. But since many decks just do that my argument still stands. I also think it is questionable if Demonic is worse than Enlightened or Mystical.

Mana Drain: Too much random wins with this card in my opinion.

Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

Trinisphere: This card is only really good if you can play it turn 1-2 on the play. I really think that aggro-HL-decks are consistent enough to beat a turn 2 Trinisphere and even that shouldnt happen to often.

Thanks a lot for participance!



Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: coldcrow on 19-04-2011, 11:49:17 AM
How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?
7

How do you rate the highlander mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?
7 : Favoring redundant decks e.g. non-combo, also leading to landcount "cheat"

How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules) in average?
Regularily online

How often have you played on a HL-GP?
Never.

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

Only to be viewed in conjection with the next question:
Worldly Tutor : Makes zero sense to ban the other topdeck tutors and let this one live with all the new printings.

Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

Yawgmoth's Will, Buried Alive : Decks sped up alot, there is plenty of very good gravehate available which isn't currently run due to the absence of recursion or animator decks.



Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Zirendaril on 20-04-2011, 09:49:39 AM
@ HIGHLANDER COMMUNITY

Name:Zirendaril


How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?

8

How do you rate the highlander mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?

10 (100 cards, so the probability for extremely messed up hands is in practice greater than when playing with 60 card decks)

How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules) in average

Once per week 

How often have you played on a HL-GP?

Never

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

To name a few:

Gifts Ungiven: To my experience a player who plays Gifts wins the game almost certainly. Power level is just ridiculous.

Mana Drain: What the hell... Do I really need to explain? Also see the next category.

Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale/Library of Alexandria/Moat/Imperial Seal/Ravages of War/Imperial Recruiter etc etc.

While these cards may not necessarily be too powerful (many of them do seem quite broken to me), the thing is that I don't see why they shouldn't be banned just because of their current prices. It would be a shame if highlander, too, became a contest between purses. On the other hand playing constructed MTG is expensive and people just have to face it, and of course anyone can make "it's a slippery slope" -type of arguments if we start banning cards for being too expensive, but I think the tip of the iceberg could easily be cut off, especially since many of the pricey cards are quite broken anyway. This would also compliment the current policies well (WC-cards are allowed etc.). I am not aware is this currently a "problem" at all, since I've got no idea how many highlander-people actually own these cards. This isn't the most acute issue, but something I think people should give some consideration in near future.

Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)
My experience in highlander is so limited, that I cannot answer this question properly.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Kassow-Rossing on 20-04-2011, 10:40:23 AM
Zirendaril
So you think if a card is not too powerful or format-breaking but still very expensive, it should be banned so the people who own and play the cards can't have the fun with it and will have to sell their cards?

I don't think any card should be banned on money issues. The game should be as healthy as possible and not as cheap as possible.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Sephiron on 20-04-2011, 11:42:20 AM
@ HIGHLANDER COMMUNITY

Name:Sephiron

How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?

8 (Relevant cards are banned, but bant is too good)

How do you rate the highlander mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?

11 (gives real advantage to more experienced players and makes you think about mulliganing while removing some of the luck involved in mulliganing, i love it)

How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules) in average:

several times weekly   

How often have you played on a HL-GP?

Never

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

Stoneforge Mystic (Card is too strong, its like jitte: is you get one on turn 2 opponent is in deep trouble, plus it makes equipments like SoFI/SoFF tutorable with creature tutors)

Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

Yawgmoth's Will (strong card, but doesnt break the format)

Suggestions:

My opinion is that midrangish creaturedecks are too good, since pure control cant deal with continuous stream of creatures that bring card advantage (mystic, shriekmaw, venser etc.). So I would suggest either banning something from those decks to weaken them (mystic swords or something like that), though since wizards are continuously printing better creatures that might be not such a good idea. That is why i think it would be better to unban some combo (entomb, buried alive, yavgomth's will or maybe even dread return) cards to make combo decks better thus making midrange weaker and control stronger making metagame more balanced, since currently there arent any good combo decks in format (which i think is wrong).

P.S. In my opinion lately the most relevant bans were: loam, survival, library of alexandria, mind twist and enlightened tutor. While they made metagame better for example banning loam made any kind of dredge strategies (and graveyard strategies overall) much worse, so i would like if they would get some goodies unbanned.

P.P.S Although i know gifts is strong and sometimes wins games outright I believe it isnt unfair enough for it to get banned since it is likely that banning it wont change metagame at all.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Nastaboi on 20-04-2011, 01:12:17 PM
Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale/Library of Alexandria/Moat/Imperial Seal/Ravages of War/Imperial Recruiter

I'd suggest that you check out which cards are in the banned list first place before answering the question.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Sturmgott on 20-04-2011, 01:51:43 PM
I keep wondering why people completely ignore the fact that the most wanted cards for banning ALL do not occur in the last GP's top 8...

If at all something must be done, then it is to nerf creature-based aggro. Unbanning balance - and banning Zuran Orb in the course (so Balance does not become Staxx cheapest Armageddon) - could be an attempt at boosting control AND combo likewise. I'd also suggest unbanning Mystical Tutor. Maybe even Vampiric Tutor... This would also solve the "problem" of explainability why Demonic Tutor is not banned. Think about it. The direction the game currently develops towards is everything else than healthy...


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: LasH on 20-04-2011, 02:45:09 PM
I keep wondering why people completely ignore the fact that the most wanted cards for banning ALL do not occur in the last GP's top 8...

If at all something must be done, then it is to nerf creature-based aggro. Unbanning balance - and banning Zuran Orb in the course (so Balance does not become Staxx cheapest Armageddon) - could be an attempt at boosting control AND combo likewise. I'd also suggest unbanning Mystical Tutor. Maybe even Vampiric Tutor... This would also solve the "problem" of explainability why Demonic Tutor is not banned. Think about it. The direction the game currently develops towards is everything else than healthy...

Wow, its like reading my own thoughts :). I totally agree with you, even if i have to say i'm wondering what u think about balance:

"Unbanning Balance did not have the desired effect of improving control decks in the format. Instead of that Balance was abused by combo decks as the ultimate no-brainer creature removal. Furthermore the stax deck abused Balance as a combination of Wrath of God/Mind Twist/Armageddon for just two mana. In this respect unbanning Balance was a mistake which we hereby rectify."

This could happen again and seems maybe even more broken than academy, at least to me. But that we even think about such ridiculous cards to "balance" out things again, says more than 1000 posts.

Its like ppl have in mind "dont ever ban creatures - creatures are not broken". I dont remember any creature ban's in magic history which were not part of a combo. But i think this is a different format and ppl need to learn that this is not even close a rock - paper - scissors format or a rotating format. Even if i dislike bannings, i think it might be time to cut some of the creature-based spoils, before we unleash cards like balance or academy (but i think that will not happen. I think there is a higher chance to see balance/academy again, than simply ban creatures or creature based tutors).


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: peeler on 20-04-2011, 05:49:00 PM



Its like ppl have in mind "dont ever ban creatures - creatures are not broken". I dont remember any creature ban's in magic history which were not part of a combo.

One all migthy creature was Banned in extended (first banned list):

KIRD APE!


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Kassow-Rossing on 21-04-2011, 12:36:24 AM
I just wish to say that I think it is amazing how the forum has developed and how we all can have so many different views upon the format! I really love it! I also deeply hope that the HL Council will continue to listen to the people because we are many around in Europe playing the format outside of Germany. So probs to them too!


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: MMD on 21-04-2011, 07:08:06 AM
I keep wondering why people completely ignore the fact that the most wanted cards for banning ALL do not occur in the last GP's top 8...

If at all something must be done, then it is to nerf creature-based aggro. Unbanning balance - and banning Zuran Orb in the course (so Balance does not become Staxx cheapest Armageddon) - could be an attempt at boosting control AND combo likewise. I'd also suggest unbanning Mystical Tutor. Maybe even Vampiric Tutor... This would also solve the "problem" of explainability why Demonic Tutor is not banned. Think about it. The direction the game currently develops towards is everything else than healthy...

Only looking on GP's is IMO not enough (but even there I assume you will see plenty of Drains). We should analyse more tournaments. Tournament data base administrator any one? Do we have enough tournaments to analyse (e.g. Iserlohn) or is Highlander just kitchen table magic?

Many formats are driven to creature combat due to WotC strategy, so this will certainly also affect Highlander. I don´t see a problem here.

I don´t understand why so many people call that control is dead. It is very easy to build a Control deck which destroys aggro (even without Drain and Demonic). The only problem is to tweak and metagame because an anti-aggro list will horribly loose against combo and draw-go. So as long as combo and draw-go is weak (which I think is currently the case) you can win tournaments with anti-aggro control lists. The main threat for Control are IMO the new non-creature cards (Hello Planeswalkers!)







Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: peeler on 21-04-2011, 08:03:07 AM
I would be able to analyse a deck lists from tournements i get..
So if you have decklists from your tournement just send it to me (pm me for email adress)
I will make meta-game breakdowns and will post them here in forum, if we have a criticial mass perhaps conclusions about the format will be more fact based...


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Mythrandir on 21-04-2011, 04:48:31 PM
Zirendaril
So you think if a card is not too powerful or format-breaking but still very expensive, it should be banned so the people who own and play the cards can't have the fun with it and will have to sell their cards?

I don't think any card should be banned on money issues. The game should be as healthy as possible and not as cheap as possible.

Actually, imperial seal is banned because of money issues (i think there were a post somewhere about this...), since in most cases it's a wors DT.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Tabris on 21-04-2011, 08:26:16 PM
Well in Berlin we have every week a tournament with like 14-20 players. Most of the decks are competetive I would say three to four decks are not that good but if you want I can post the standings. Dont know about the decklists bc we dont need them on this level and most ppl modify their lists very often.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Ball.Lightning on 21-04-2011, 11:34:07 PM
I also don't see much problem in current meta. Agro is obviously strong and versatile. It has card advantage and can respond to many different threats without loosing much tempo. To hose agro is the easiest way to beat it. There are soo much good anti agro cards, that there is no need of unbaning any card from the banned list, just because of this situation.Cards are out there, but nobody is playing them. That is the problem. I think, meta will adapt to current state. Until games don't end on T2 or T3 and stays interactive and fun, and both players has figting chance - I call it healthy format.

I think the lack of combo is caused not that much, that combo is weak and unplayeable, but because of playing combo in HL is the most challenging and difficult way to go. Much easier is to take safe way, that is now - playing agro. Contrary of the legacy, where combo can be quite stable, that it is possingle to go off from starting 7, is is not our case here in HL. It can be quite difficult to find correct pieces in time and at the same time the combo player has to defend himself against oponent. The next thing, decklist of combodeck is usually tweaked to fit playing style of its author, so adapting one is not usually the right way to go. On the other hand, it is not that much difficult to adapt agro decklist, where most cards are redundant.

Unbaning some card just because agro is everywhere is bad imho. If you unban for example mystical tutor - how much it helps combo and not helps bant based midrage decks? The same think is vampiric tutor here... like 5c agro doesn't exist.

Cards should be banned on the power level and not because of they are expensive. Next category of cards suited for banning is cards that say - Crew u I win - and the conditions of wining are not difficult to achive.

I cant stand whinning of players that say - Boost stax(or any different strategy), it is weak and everyone beats us. If your deck is weak and has many bad matchups - dont play the deck! There is plenty of different and potent strategies out there.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Kassow-Rossing on 22-04-2011, 12:04:45 AM
Actually, imperial seal is banned because of money issues (i think there were a post somewhere about this...), since in most cases it's a wors DT.

It sounds to me like Imperial Seal shouldn't be banned then. Why ban a card because of money issues? That has nothing to do with the game.


Cards should be banned on the power level and not because of they are expensive. Next category of cards suited for banning is cards that say - Crew u I win - and the conditions of wining are not difficult to achive.

I cant stand whinning of players that say - Boost stax(or any different strategy), it is weak and everyone beats us. If your deck is weak and has many bad matchups - dont play the deck! There is plenty of different and potent strategies out there.

I agree on so many levels! Especially about the fact that we shouldn't unban stuff like Mystical Tutor because of the fact that control is behind. I can't seem to find a quotation where a player says something about his own deck. I am a Staxx player and I haven't read or written anything about boosting Staxx because Staxx shouldn't be good enough. Maybe you're confusing it with the unbanning of Tolarian Academy because the argument for banning no longer apply? Neither have I heard another player write anything about his or her own deck. Cards should be banned for power levels or for balance. Not for money issues.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: MMD on 22-04-2011, 09:04:11 AM
I also agree that banning a card because of money issues is not a valid argument. Even in Standard there are 4xJace decks against Mono Red Burn. If you have a small budget for Highlander then build your budget deck. I think that there are more competitive and interesting budget decks possible than in other formats.

Also, cards like Mishra's Workshop and friends are not far away from the price for an Imperial Seal. If the council bans a card like Imperial Seal because of its power level, it would be much easier for me to understand the banning strategy. It´s not that I want the Seal in my decks but the banning reasons somethimes puzzling me.

Regarding combo power level: I think they are a weak choice because they are not faster than an aggro deck but less flexible and constant in most of the cases. Most "combo decks" I see splash 1-2 (semi)combos in an another deck strategy to keep the flexibility/consistency.



Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Vazdru on 22-04-2011, 11:12:44 AM
This were the results of the evaluation back in 2008 just for comparison only. The new results will follow soon:


BAN   ----   UNBAN

Survival of the Fittest      27   43,55%  Kiki-Jiki Mirror-Breaker      15   24,19%
Library of Alexandria      15   24,19%  Dust Bowl       13   20,97%
Life from the Loam      14   22,58%  Chain of Plasma      12   19,35%
Gifts Ungiven      8   12,90%  Umezawa's Jitte      9   14,52%
Oath of Druids      7   11,29%  Protean Hulk      7   11,29%
Demonic Tutor      5   8,06%  Dread Return      7   11,29%
Intuition      3   4,84%  Mystical Tutor      6   9,68%
Pulse of the Fields      3   4,84%  Imperial Seal      5   8,06%
Mana Drain      3   4,84%  Flash      5   8,06%
Mind Shatter      3   4,84%  Balance       4   6,45%
Mishra's Workshop      3   4,84%  Trinisphere      3   4,84%
Isochron Scepter      3   4,84%  Skullclamp        2   3,23%
Crucible of Worlds      2   3,23%  Mana Vault      2   3,23%
Aether Vial      2   3,23%  Power Artifact      2   3,23%
Back to Basics      2   3,23%  Wheel of Fortune      1   1,61%
Volrath's Stronghold      1   1,61%  Lion's Eye Diamond      1   1,61%
Sensei's Divining Top      1   1,61%  Vampiric Tutor      1   1,61%
Academy Ruins      1   1,61%  Strip Mine      1   1,61%
Vedalken Shackles      1   1,61%  Yawgmoth's Will        1   1,61%
Goblin Recruiter      1   1,61%  Mind Twist      1   1,61%
Ravages of War      1   1,61%  Tolarian Academy      1   1,61%
Force of Will      1   1,61%  Sol Ring      1   1,61%
Recurring Nightmare      1   1,61%  Tinker      1   1,61%
Price of Progress      1   1,61%
                        



I have 62 answered questionnaires meanwhile. Thanks for your support.

It will take some time for the evaluation. Just a few detections at first sight:

a) the HL community obviously likes the special HL mulligan

b) noone mentioned Mind over Matters to be banned (Latest Unbanning proved itself right)

c) Library of Alexandria is one of the most hated cards actually although no? LoA appeared in the Top 4 (Latest Unbanning seems to be conflicting)

d) Survival is still another disliked card although there haven't been many copies in the Top 8

e) The community wants Chains of Plasma (+ Ban Swans) and Kiki-Jiki back. Lots of guys mentioned Dust Bowl to be unbanned.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Vazdru on 22-04-2011, 11:38:57 AM
Again for comparison only. Rating of Banned-List and Mulligan back in 2008.

                                    
   
   Banned-List                  Mulligan               
   10      1      1,61%      10      36      58,06%   
   9      15      24,19%      9      6      9,68%   
   8      18      29,03%      8      10      16,13%   
   7      11      17,74%      7      6      9,68%   
   6      4      6,45%      6      2      3,23%   
   5      6      9,68%      5            0,00%   
   4      3      4,84%      4      1      1,61%   
   3      1      1,61%      3            0,00%   
   2      2      3,23%      2            0,00%   
   1            0,00%      1      1      1,61%   
   -      1      1,61%                     
         62      100,00%            62      100,00%   
                                 
                                    
Avarage Banned List:       7,19                              
Avarage Mulligan:      8,92                              


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Vazdru on 23-04-2011, 10:00:35 AM
   
   Ban:                  Unban:               
   Natural Order      11      25,58%      Life from the Loam      11      25,58%   
   Mana Drain      7      16,28%      Trinisphere      9      20,93%   
   Demonic Tutor      6      13,95%      Buried Alive      8      18,60%   
   Mishra's Workshop      5      11,63%      Enlightened Tutor      7      16,28%   
   Oath of Druids      5      11,63%      Yawgmoth's Will      6      13,95%   
   Gifts Ungiven      4      9,30%      Mystical Tutor      5      11,63%   
   Aether Vial      3      6,98%      Entomb      5      11,63%   
   Sensei's Divining Top      3      6,98%      Umezawa's Jitte      4      9,30%   
   Progenitus      2      4,65%      Tolarian Academy      4      9,30%   
   Moat      2      4,65%      Library of Alexandria      4      9,30%   
   Worldly Tutor      2      4,65%      Imperial Seal      4      9,30%   
   Stoneforge Mystic      2      4,65%      Dread Return      3      6,98%   
   Intuition      2      4,65%      Wheel of Fortune      2      4,65%   
   Trygon Predator      1      2,33%      Survival of the Fittest      1      2,33%   
   Onslaught Cycle-Lands      1      2,33%      Strip Mine      1      2,33%   
   Worldgorger Dragon      1      2,33%      Skullclamp      1      2,33%   
   Channel      1      2,33%      Mind Twist      1      2,33%   
   Power Artifact      1      2,33%      All Moxes      1      2,33%   
   Thopter Foundry      1      2,33%                     
   Protean Hulk      1      2,33%                     
   Karakas      1      2,33%                     
   Price of Progress      1      2,33%                     
   Quasli Pridemage      1      2,33%                     
   Shahrazad      1      2,33%                     
                                 
      
                                 
   Banned-List                  Mulligan               
   10      3      6,98%      10      28      65,12%   
   9      17      39,53%      9      1      2,33%   
   8      13      30,23%      8      5      11,63%   
   7      9      20,93%      7      1      2,33%   
   6            0,00%      6      3      6,98%   
   5            0,00%      5      3      6,98%   
   4      1      2,33%      4            0,00%   
   3            0,00%      3      1      2,33%   
   2            0,00%      2            0,00%   
   1            0,00%      1      1      2,33%   
   -            0,00%                     
         43      100,00%            43      100,00%   
                                 
Rating of Banned-Liste 8,23 (7,19 in 2008)
Ratng of Mulligan 8,67 (8,92 in 2008)


Top 8 appearance of the "problematic" cards in HL GP 8 :

* Natural Order (1/8, firestarter)
* Mana Drain (3/8, firestarter, Tabris, Sebastian)
* Demonic Tutor (3/8, goblinpiledriver, firestarter, Thomas)
* Mishra's Workshop (0/8)
* Oath of Druids (0/8)
* Gifts Ungiven (2/8, firestarter, Tabris)
* Aether Vial (4/8, goblinpiledriver, firestarter, Thomas, Sebastian)
* Sensei's Divining Top (3/8, firestarter, Tabris, Sebastian) 


44 questionaires have been answered

* x.5 downgraded
* "either...or", "maybe" not counted for the statistics above
* one questionaire not valued


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: LasH on 23-04-2011, 12:01:07 PM
Thx for the result's.

In my opinion, the top 5 "ban" wantings don't play a serious role in competive play (except for mana drain). I cannot understand that so many people hate natural order.

All decks running natural order along with progenitus for example, are always in danger to get a bribery. Its a very high risk to run this combo.
The other target is usually primeval titan, which compensate the card disadvantage, but its in my experience never a gamebreaker. Natural order is slow, clumpy and card disadvantage for 4 mana and you are far behind if your opponent can counter it. I just understand it a little bit, if i compare it with tinker to darksteele colossus back in vintage.

Mana Drain is in the meta since ever. Its a huge advantage exspecially since there is no more manaburn. But ban?

Workshop in opening hand is huge. But there is not a single competive stax build out there atm. Same goes off for oath of druids. There is not any good oath deck atm, because the decks have to many options to kill even a turn 2 oath. Futhermore its one of the last dangerous "early threads" against aggro. It seems like ppl wanna have a format, where they dont need to fear ANYTHING for their creatures. Fact is, seeing top 8 consisting of creature based decks and zero oath decks did manage to take a top 8 spot is the explanation itself.

Seeing Moat on the list is just pure sadness.

Futhermore i totally cannot understand the unbanlist. 3 Months playing with trinishphere and ppl would vote to ban it with 40% of the votes. Pretty sure about that. I read arguments saying, its only good in the first turns. Total bs in my eyes. Trinisphere is in this meta always a huge advantage for any stax list, since all other colors run 75% of their cards < 3cc. Its the best lock card possible for stax, and everybody denying this has never played lock-stax with sphere.

I personally hate lftl more than anything else in the format and i hope never to see it again. Slowing down the game by far the most, just such a boring card in the format, and not a single person wrote intuition on the banlist while putting Lftl on the unban list? I rather play on vs 4c goodstuff, aggro or bant only before playing against lftl again.

Buried alive and yawgmoth's will deserve a watchlist check.

This is a huge dissapointment. Only a few player's see the real danger cards for the format, including wordly tutor, stoneforge mystic or even aether vial. These cards are the problematic factor's of the current meta and the top8. But actually this explains alot of wizards new kind of printings. People dont wanna play with spells, they wanna play with creatures.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Kassow-Rossing on 23-04-2011, 01:13:43 PM
I personally hate lftl more than anything else in the format and i hope never to see it again. Slowing down the game by far the most, just such a boring card in the format, and not a single person wrote intuition on the banlist while putting Lftl on the unban list? I rather play on vs 4c goodstuff, aggro or bant only before playing against lftl again.

2. Intuition. Remember this is only my opinion and feel free to feel otherwise yourself. I really think Gifts should be banned purely because of power scales, so if Gifts is gone: Should Intuition or LftL be banned? I say Intuition because none of the cards are any powerful but having both in the format is troublesome. Intuition is also the boring of the two. Please help me here Council.

3. Demonic Tutor. This card is not only the best tutor in the game and format but it can also go in any Mono Green or Mono Red deck due to the fetch lands and dual lands. I'm having a really hard time explaining to people why this card isn't banned since I'm practically the only guy participating here online. I'm fine with the card but people are really confused and I think they have the right to be.


Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why?
1. Life From the Loam. I don't think this card will be any powerful without Gifts Ungiven and Intuition. This card should not get unbanned if Gifts Ungiven doesn't get banned.

:) I agree with you on Natural Order-Progenitus, Workshop, Moat, Buried Alive, Yagmoth's Will and Worldly Tutor. I'm not sure I can follow your Life from the Loam theory. If Gifts Ungiven is banned due to power levels and Intuition follows (due to LftL) then Life from the Loam won't break the format because tutoring both LftL AND Wasteland or LtfL AND Cycle lands are a bit hard. It will most likely serve as the extra Crucible of Worlds that costa mana each turn because setting up comboes and lockdowns with it will be a rare sight. I don't think cards should be banned because they take up time, which Life from the Loam only will if it has a cycle combo set up with either Gifts or Intuition, but only for power levels. I don't think Sensei's Divining Top should be banned for the same reason. It's just not strong enough to be a troublemaker.

About Mana Drain. It looks like a dangerous card to me because it can just win the game so easily and really give blue the weird and mysterious mana ramp to resolve in a turn 3 Grave Titan. I haven't had troubles with it so far and I also like to play it myself, but that is really no reason to keep it unbanned. Isn't it too "random luck factor"?


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Mythrandir on 23-04-2011, 01:16:28 PM


Seeing Moat on the list is just pure sadness.

People dont wanna play with spells, they wanna play with creatures.

So very true! Both phrases!

There are really strange things in that list: 4 people want to unban jitte and LoA!? Specially LoA, we've done and it messed up the game, even I a 100% control player which thinks aggro is dominating sees that LoA won't solve that and will only degenerate controls MU.

Also it would be interesting to see the relation between ban/unban. Because if the player who said ban to cycle lands didn't want LFTL unbanned, that is even stranger.

I really can't understand the hate towards oath, i know i've been a bit away.. but is this becoming a problem? I hardly ever see oath decks.

And again Moat being banned? Pure sadness. Did they give a reason?

Also, a very big "Thank you" to vazdru! :)

edited:
Quote
About Mana Drain. It looks like a dangerous card to me because it can just win the game so easily and really give blue the weird and mysterious mana ramp to resolve in a turn 3 Grave Titan. I haven't had troubles with it so far and I also like to play it myself, but that is really no reason to keep it unbanned. Isn't it too "random luck factor"?

Like so many other cards in this format... Random luck factor will always be present, specially in "one-of's-formats".


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: coldcrow on 24-04-2011, 12:38:13 PM
I can only repeat what I said before: the day gifts/int become part of the banned list I am leaving this format.
The interaction is moving rapidly towards the board, please do not ban the few cards which produce interesting interaction on the stack.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: MMD on 25-04-2011, 07:48:36 AM
It seems I hit the nail regarding my ban request (4/Top5) but I am very surprised that Natural Order is 1st. Workshop is a budget problem I assume.

Intuition/Gifts are not the ban worthy cards anymore because of three reason:
- Loam is banned
- HL is faster nowadays
- Thread density improves with every edition

The window for a game winning Intuition/Gifts pile is very small at the moment. Certainly a late game Gifts is game over very often but there are not so many late games for me lately.

However, I definately do not want Intuition/Gifts in the same format as Loam as this makes Control/Goodstuff mirrors a nobrainer, like LoA does. I cannot understand how people can call for a Loam unban but do not want to have Intuition/Gifts banned.

Intuition/Gifts definately offer more than Loam for our format. So I say "NO LO'AM"  ;D

Regarding the unbanning vote I was not that sucessful with my vote (Trinisphere/Entomb) but I have now reconsidered my ban request more open minded.

Perhaps we should think about opening the Hell´s Gate for several cards on the banned list, just to find out how they REALLY influence the format. We can discuss about unbannings all night long but as long as we don´t test them on a tournament level we´ll never now for sure.

These are IMO the candidates for unbannings:
Buried Alive
Entomb
Imperial Seal
Tolarian Academy
Trinisphere
Yawgmoth's Will
and perhaps even:
Dread Return
Skullclamp
Wheel of Fortune

IMO it is clear that Loam (see above), LoA, Jitte and the instant Tutors should stay on the banned list. The same goes for Drain and Demonic, but this is another story   8)

If we find out that one (or several) of these cards will dictate our format, we can ban them a couple of months later without any bigger problems.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: MarcMagic on 25-04-2011, 08:45:21 AM
Perhaps we should think about opening the Hell´s Gate for several cards on the banned list, just to find out how they REALLY influence the format. We can discuss about unbannings all night long but as long as we don´t test them on a tournament level we´ll never now for sure.

These are IMO the candidates for unbannings:
Buried Alive
Entomb
Imperial Seal
Tolarian Academy
Trinisphere
Yawgmoth's Will
and perhaps even:
Dread Return
Skullclamp
Wheel of Fortune

IMO it is clear that Loam (see above), LoA, Jitte and the instant Tutors should stay on the banned list. The same goes for Drain and Demonic, but this is another story   8)

If we find out that one (or several) of these cards will dictate our format, we can ban them a couple of months later without any bigger problems.
That's exactly what I always say.. Just find out HOW strong they really are in the actual meta. HL is not a format where money prices matters that much and I think it should be possible to reban cards quite fast after a really bad decision. Although I think it's still hard for some people to look objective at some cards. Best example for me would be Oath of Druids.. I did not count but I guess something like 4 copies saw play in the last 2 years top 8 lists and never as a broken card.. but people still wanna see Oath banned so I guess it won't be that different with other cards like Trinisphere, Will etc : )

Nevertheless good point and I definite support it.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Kassow-Rossing on 26-04-2011, 02:10:51 PM
I cannot understand how people can call for a Loam unban but do not want to have Intuition/Gifts banned.

Hehe I don't think anybody has ever said that :) I hope that Gifts gets banned, Life from the Loam gets unbanned and then unfortunately also ban Intuition. Reasons: Life from the Loam is not a powerful card. It's only an extra Crucible of Worlds that costs mana each turn. Gifts Ungiven is really powerful and ban worthy for that reason. Intuition will have to get the hammer unrightfully because otherwise Loam will too good.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: PurlQg on 26-04-2011, 11:57:47 PM
I don't see why we should ban Gifts/intuition because they are powerfull? There are so many powerful cards in this format there has to be more reasons.
Are they a problem in the current meta? I totaly agree with MMD as long as the format isn't dominated by cards like Gifts and Intuition then keep them of the banned list. The format is really dominated by aggro decks right now.
DCI have been quite good with the Legacy banned list trying to unban cards and failing, then banning them again, I would love to se some cards tested in real tournaments.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: MMD on 27-04-2011, 08:10:57 AM
I cannot understand how people can call for a Loam unban but do not want to have Intuition/Gifts banned.

Hehe I don't think anybody has ever said that :) I hope that Gifts gets banned, Life from the Loam gets unbanned and then unfortunately also ban Intuition. Reasons: Life from the Loam is not a powerful card. It's only an extra Crucible of Worlds that costs mana each turn. Gifts Ungiven is really powerful and ban worthy for that reason. Intuition will have to get the hammer unrightfully because otherwise Loam will too good.

Then you should better take a look on the latest survey analysis. The gap between the votes of banning Gifts/Intution and unbanning Loam is huge. One-sided voters have either not pondered about their vote or don´t understand HL competitive play at all. Sorry.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Kassow-Rossing on 27-04-2011, 09:42:45 AM
PurlQg and MMD you're most probably right. I did not see the great span between the wantings for unbanning LftL and the bannings of Gifts + Intuition. I'm sorry!

But you don't have to smite me for not agreeing with me :) It's kind of lame to get a smite this often for saying my opinion a lot. Isn't that the point of the forum?

The thing is I don't find Gifts Ungiven a great problem even though it's almost instant win. I just think Life from the Loam should be unbanned, because having that card on the ban list is really weird to me. However that leaves us with a problem: Wasteland Lockdown. I don't think it's a bad decision to ban LtfL and keep Gifts and Intuition unbanned but I think it's a better decision to ban Gifts and Intuition to unban LftL.

That is my honest opinion. If this happened, random situations like drawing both Wasteland and LftL would happen, but they would not be that fast or neither very often. It would also make players think a little bit more about how to build their mana bases instead of including near only non-basic lands, as people have decided to do since LftL got banned. It's too EDH'ish in my eyes.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Dreamer on 27-04-2011, 10:39:02 PM
Wastelock could, interestingly enough, be a decent solution to the multicolor madness in the format atm. Encourages green and/or two-colour for those basics. It may not be desirable even then, but at least it has some other effects on the meta unlike Alexandria that just turns control mirrors into luckfests. Plus it is green, basically reads "draw cards" on it, and doesn't suck, which is reason enough for me to unban it, Wastelock be damned.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Sephiron on 29-04-2011, 12:12:23 AM
Wastelock could, interestingly enough, be a decent solution to the multicolor madness in the format atm. Encourages green and/or two-colour for those basics. It may not be desirable even then, but at least it has some other effects on the meta unlike Alexandria that just turns control mirrors into luckfests. Plus it is green, basically reads "draw cards" on it, and doesn't suck, which is reason enough for me to unban it, Wastelock be damned.
I agree on you on all the points. Although I'm not sure you actually need to ban both intuition AND gifts to unban loam. I think banning gifts should be sufficient enough, since intuition is good mainly because of loam and it isn't such a gamebreaker. Personally I dont care either way: playing gifts is fun, but with loam in the format some graveyard centered strategies might be interesting to play.
But I think what really should be noted is that whatever happened with regards to gifts, it doesn't actually make bant/other aggro decks any weaker while making control decks worse. For example I think banning stoneforge mystic would be much more productive, since every aggro/midrange deck wants to play white, and while mystic isn't always the biggest reason, it is easily splashable and if it resolves on turn 2 it gives too much of an advantage to that player (actually it currently feels pretty much like jitte). 


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: LasH on 29-04-2011, 11:44:22 AM
Quote
but with loam in the format some graveyard centered strategies might be interesting to play.

I dont think anything else will see play than lands with Lftl. We had it alrdy in the format and it was just totally boring. It was kinda the slowest format we ever had with highlander, since all decks just tryed to get the draw engine online. No matter which decktype you went for, Lofl had always the perfect answer in form of lands. Futhermore it delayed the games so long, i played grand prix 2 years ago, where it was still allowed to play and went with an aggressive deck in each game to the timeout, mainly because of lftl (+ top + fetch).

Quote
For example I think banning stoneforge mystic would be much more productive, since every aggro/midrange deck wants to play white, and while mystic isn't always the biggest reason, it is easily splashable and if it resolves on turn 2 it gives too much of an advantage to that player (actually it currently feels pretty much like jitte). 

I totally agree. SM and Quasali pridemage are to low costed for their abilitys in this format. Compare these creatures to the other "versions": Steelshaper Apprentice, Stonehewer Giant, Taj-Nar Swordsmith or Wickerborn Elder, Indrik Stomphowler, wich are perfectly balanced for their abilitys.

Once again, the abilitys are fine and good for the format. The cc of these cards is not. Exspecially with all CHEAP creature tutor's you are much to flexible, because of the ridiculous low mana costs of these cards. You kinda can play tutor and you can use them in the same turn alrdy, because they are so cheap to cast. And these guys DO change the bord or they control the bord, which is actually simply to strong in that cc slot for the format in my eyes.



Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Sephiron on 29-04-2011, 12:39:51 PM
Quote
I dont think anything else will see play than lands with Lftl. We had it alrdy in the format and it was just totally boring. It was kinda the slowest format we ever had with highlander, since all decks just tryed to get the draw engine online. No matter which decktype you went for, Lofl had always the perfect answer in form of lands. Futhermore it delayed the games so long, i played grand prix 2 years ago, where it was still allowed to play and went with an aggressive deck in each game to the timeout, mainly because of lftl (+ top + fetch).
I know what you mean, but then again the format had LoA (the card is just retarded, i don't want to see it unbanned ever) and gifts (to lesser extent intuition) which slowed it much more. What i mean is with loam in the format people will play more controlling strategies: looters will become better, and genesis with worm harvest will finally be viable options to play again. This in turn will slow format down. Its not like aggros will stop being good. It will just slow down the format, getting control more time to stabilize.

But then again it is just my opinion and i will be fine either way, as long as either gifts or loam is in the format.
 
Quote

I totally agree. SM and Quasali pridemage are to low costed for their abilitys in this format. Compare these creatures to the other "versions": Steelshaper Apprentice, Stonehewer Giant, Taj-Nar Swordsmith or Wickerborn Elder, Indrik Stomphowler, wich are perfectly balanced for their abilitys.

Once again, the abilitys are fine and good for the format. The cc of these cards is not. Exspecially with all CHEAP creature tutor's you are much to flexible, because of the ridiculous low mana costs of these cards. You kinda can play tutor and you can use them in the same turn alrdy, because they are so cheap to cast. And these guys DO change the bord or they control the bord, which is actually simply to strong in that cc slot for the format in my eyes.


While I agree on your arguments i don't think pridemage is that bad, since it has drawbacks: It's 2 colored so it means you have to be playing those colors already and secondly it doesn't provide card advantage (there are other creatures with similar effect in white pridemage is just a bit better than the rest ), so you cant exactly compare it to 4-5 drops that kill artifacts/enchantments when they come into play.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Kassow-Rossing on 29-04-2011, 04:07:16 PM
I dont think anything else will see play than lands with Lftl. We had it alrdy in the format and it was just totally boring. It was kinda the slowest format we ever had with highlander, since all decks just tryed to get the draw engine online. No matter which decktype you went for, Lofl had always the perfect answer in form of lands. Futhermore it delayed the games so long, i played grand prix 2 years ago, where it was still allowed to play and went with an aggressive deck in each game to the timeout, mainly because of lftl (+ top + fetch).

1. I didn't find the format boring, so please speak for yourself.
2. Yeah a format with Life from the Loam, Gifts Ungiven and Intuition is slow and dangerously troublesome. Any format with Gifts actually is troublesome. We've had so very many discussions in here how over-the-top Gifts was back when Loam was unbanned but Loam was not near the only argument for Gifts Ungiven being too good. I know my fight for Life from the Loam is going to be difficult because it involves three changes to get it unbanned, but I really think it was a mistake to ban Loam before banning Gifts. The format won't be slow with Loam if there are no tutors bringing a whole combo package to the graveyard.
3. Yes Sensei's Divining Top and Fetch lands are really slow in the format. I don't know what the solution is because I really don't think such cards should get the hammer. I have tried suggestion a rule change for the mulligan where cards are being put on the bottom of the library instead of being shuffled in, which will save at least a minute each game. That didn't go so well. I have tried suggestion having dual lands on the outside of the game and putting them to the battlefield when fetching (While keeping the main deck dual land in the library) thus removing the main deck dual land from the game when drawing it thus replacing the two cards and saving 100% of the fetch'ing time. That is also somehow against the rules because it's possible to cheat if you are not being careful.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Nastaboi on 29-04-2011, 05:35:28 PM
Loam would make dredge deck almost playable, which is good as the deck needs skill and tight play (as opposed in other formats). For the record, I'd like to see Gifts banned and Loam unbanned, but for me those wishes are not strongly related as I'd be happy if I got either one.

Do people who want Stoneforge Mystic banned think Demonic Tutor is still an OK card to have in comparision?


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: LasH on 29-04-2011, 06:27:14 PM

Quote
1. I didn't find the format boring, so please speak for yourself.

I kinda did only speak for myself. I dont see me speaking for others.

Quote
Do people who want Stoneforge Mystic banned think Demonic Tutor is still an OK card to have in comparision?

I dont know why u compare stoneforge mystic to demonic tutor.

Compared to demonic tutor, stoneforge has a free 1/2 body + a sick ability vs counter. I dont see any of this comparable to demonic tutor.

If the "search sword" part of the card would be the dangerous factor, ppl would play steelshaper's gift or Steelshaper Apprentice, Stonehewer Giant or Taj-Nar Swordsmith, but its mostly the very powerful ability which wins most of the games early on (combined with the ridiculous manacost's). It fit's so well in any aggro-control. Turn 1 manacritter turn 2 sm turn 3 use ability + equip critter. Not a rare scenario and pretty game exspecially if the bant/4c player started.

I don't see many games won by a 2nd turn demonic tutor. Demonic tutor get's pretty strong in the lategame, but then you had enough time yourself to put things on the table or react in a proper way. Stoneforge mystic wins the early game in nearly every matchup. Some alrdy said, its compareable to jitte and i join this step. Thats the difference for me, demonic is a lategamecard or a fast solution finder, while sm is a early game winner which creates sick card advantage for 2 mana. I can only compare it to trinket mage or boneshredder. (Do i miss any other ETB card advantage creatures in the 2cc slot?)


So yes, demonic tutor is still an OK card while stoneforge is not.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Sephiron on 29-04-2011, 10:53:10 PM
the thing about demonic tutor is that it finds best card for the situation but it costs 2 mana and a card for you + you still need to resolve that spell. With mystic things are different: it costs you 2 mana but provides a body so it actually is card advantage, and if it isn't killed you don't need to cast the equipment since mystic conviniently can cheat it into play around conunters and equipment removal EOT, while at the same time providing body to equip sword to. And if they kill mystic you still get to keep the card you found (maybe even cheat it into play if opponent takes too long to answer mystic).
So to sum it up I think that mystic isn't quite comparable with Demonic Tutor, but if it is compared to mystic it's actually fair card.

p.s. I should note that I sometimes find myself demonic tutoring for stoneforge mystic, since it is such a good threat.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: so_not on 30-04-2011, 11:34:32 AM
If people can get their hands on Batterskulls before our HL-champs (which will be held during the release weekend), I could see the top8 having at least 5-6 (even more) Stoneforge Mystics in the top8. I don't know if other people have tested with New Phyrexia so far but FYI Mystic+Skull is a totally busted pair of cards (at least that is what has happened so far in testing with Sephiron). Also recently I have been using Demonic Tutor mainly not as reactive card but as a second Jace or Mystic (followed by Mana Drain and Gifts Ungiven).

I don't really have an opinion whether Mystic should be banned or not. It definitely is good enough to get hammered but I'd like the banned list to be as short as possible. Hopefully our champs give some more information about the state of the format.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Lightstorm on 21-05-2011, 11:34:24 AM
I understand issues with Stoneforge Mystic but somehow this makes me feel bad since Gifts Ungiven is still legal.

I`ve been playing Stonforge in every creature based deck after it came out and it´s never been too big problem to opponent or opponents Mystic to me. Decks have creature and artifact removals.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Vazdru on 06-01-2012, 08:18:14 PM
This questionnaire will be distributed to the participants of the 9th HL GP in Hanau (08.01.12). It's almost the same as the ones before.

Online players are invited to take part in this survey (just quote and fill in). The analysis will be reported here soon.


German Version:

@ HIGHLANDER COMMUNITY

Name:___________________________________________________________________


Fragebogen zur Banned-List

•   Ancestral Recall
•   Balance
•   Black Lotus
•   Chaos Orb
•   Dread Return
•   Enlightened Tutor
•   Entomb
•   Falling Star
•   Fastbond
•   Flash
•   Grindstone
•   Gift's Ungiven
•   Imperial Seal
•   Library of Alexandria
•   Life from the Loam
•   Lion's Eye Diamond
•   Mana Crypt
•   Mana Vault
•   Mind Twist   
•   Mox Emerald
•   Mox Jet
•   Mox Pearl
•   Mox Ruby
•   Mox Sapphire
•   Mystical Tutor
•   Skullclamp
•   Sol Ring
•   Strip Mine
•   Survival of the Fittest
•   Tolarian Academy
•   Time Vault
•   Time Walk
•   Tinker
•   Umezawa's Jitte
•   Vampiric Tutor
•   Yawgmoth's Will   

Alle Ante-Karten:
•   Amulet of Quoz
•   Bronze Tablet
•   Contract from Below
•   Darkpact
•   Demonic Attorney
•   Jeweled Bird
•   Rebirth
•   Tempest Efreet
•   Timmerian Fiends

Weiterhin sind alle Karten aus den Editionen "Unglued" und "Unhinged" mit Ausnahme der Basic Lands banned.
Folgende silberrandige Karten sind ebenfalls banned:
•   Evil Presents
•   Fruitcake Elemental
•   Gifts Given


Wie bewertest Du die Banned-Liste auf einer Skala von 1 bis 10 (1=grottig, 10=super)?

__________

Wie bewertest Du die Mulligan-Regel auf einer Skala von 1 bis 10?

__________

Wie oft spielst Du Highlander nach den mp.org-Regeln durchschnittlich

   Mehrmals wöchentlich

   Einmal die Woche

   Einmal im Monat
   
   Nur bei größeren Turnieren

Wie häufig warst Du schon bei einem HL-GP?

___________

Welche Karten fehlen Deiner Meinung nach auf der aktuellen Banned-Liste? (max. die wichtigsten 5, wenn möglich mit kurzer Begründung)

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

Welche Karten würdest Du von der Banned-Liste streichen? (max. die wichtigsten 5, wenn möglich mit kurzer Begründung)

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

Weitere Anregungen und Anmerkungen?

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________


Wie soll das Nachfolgeevent zum GP heißen?

_______________________________


_____________________________________________________________________

Bitte um Rückgabe an Gerry Stahl

Vielen Dank! Die Auswertung wird demnächst veröffentlicht.

__________________________________________________________________________





Translation:

@ HIGHLANDER COMMUNITY

Name:___________________________________________________________________


Questionnaire for HL Banned List

•   Ancestral Recall
•   Balance
•   Black Lotus
•   Chaos Orb
•   Dread Return
•   Enlightened Tutor
•   Entomb
•   Falling Star
•   Fastbond
•   Flash
•   Grindstone
•   Gift's Ungiven
•   Imperial Seal
•   Library of Alexandria
•   Life from the Loam
•   Lion's Eye Diamond
•   Mana Crypt
•   Mana Vault
•   Mind Twist   
•   Mox Emerald
•   Mox Jet
•   Mox Pearl
•   Mox Ruby
•   Mox Sapphire
•   Mystical Tutor
•   Skullclamp
•   Sol Ring
•   Strip Mine
•   Survival of the Fittest
•   Tolarian Academy
•   Time Vault
•   Time Walk
•   Tinker
•   Umezawa's Jitte
•   Vampiric Tutor
•   Yawgmoth's Will   

All Ante-Cards:
•   Amulet of Quoz
•   Bronze Tablet
•   Contract from Below
•   Darkpact
•   Demonic Attorney
•   Jeweled Bird
•   Rebirth
•   Tempest Efreet
•   Timmerian Fiends
•   Unhinged-Cards
•   Unglued-Cards
•   Evil Presents
•   Fruitcake Elemental
•   Gifts Given


How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?

__________

How do you rate the highlander mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?

__________

How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules) in average

   several times weekly

   once per week

   one per month
   
   only (big) tournaments (like GP)

How often have you played on a HL-GP?

___________

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

Do you have any further suggestions or notes?

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________


How should the huge hl tournaments should be called if not Grand Prix  ;)?

_______________________________


_____________________________________________________________________


Thanks a lot for participance!


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Tiggupiru on 08-01-2012, 01:00:25 PM
Name: Tiggupiru / Janne Öhman

How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?

9, I think we've made good progress from the last time.

How do you rate the highlander mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?

10

How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules) in average

   several times weekly (or try and want to atleast)

How often have you played on a HL-GP?

Never. Still waiting for GP Helsinki.


Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)


Sensei's Diving Top - If not for anything else, but because of time issues. Problematic in tournaments.

Stoneforge Mystic - No need to ban Worldly if this goes. If you ban Worldly, this might still need to go.

Birthing Pod - Activating this three times usually gives you enough advantage to win the game. One activation usually gives enough value for you not to feel too bad if opponent removes it immediately afterwards.

Wasteland - This was a great suggestion from so_not in finnish discussion board. Wasteland just randomly wins games where someone was a bit unlucky when mulliganing. Even two colored decks have enough duals and utility lands that it can easily just win when they are low on lands. Banning of the Wasteland would also give more playable lands to the format. Kamigawa Legendary Lands and Ravnica Karoos for example don't really see play because of the threat of Wasteland.

Intuition - ONLY IF Loam gets unbanned and Wasteland would go. If Loam gets unbanned now, Intuition for Wasteland - Loam - Cycle Land would be brutal in probably like most MUs. Similarly, my favorite lock of Loam - Urborg - Raven's Crime is just one Intuition away if Loam is in the same format with Intuition. To me, Intuition doesn't really offer too much for this format. It's decent tutor for control/combo decks, but it's not something I would miss too much. I think unbanning Loam would give way more to this format.


Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)


Life from the Loam - See most of my reasonings above. It would also give a significant boost to some weird decks to emerge.

Yawgmoth's Will - Nothing has changed since last time. Giving some combo decks a boost is very preferred now that the format has become more and more midrange vs. midrange.

Enlightened Tutor - Oath is just a horrible card and I assume this is banned practically solely because of it. If you choose to play Oath, you cannot play Snapcaster, Vendilion, Stoneforge or whatever practically autoplayable creatures this format has. So you need to play bad cards in order to maximize your game plan. I don't thin Worldly needs to go, bnor this needs to stay in exile. Pod should get the axe before this can enter the format, though.

Mystical Tutor - I think these tutors are largely fair. Mystical is better than Enlightened, but I don't think we have anything too broken to search for. Mana Drain is the only reason I can think of why this should stay in the sidelines, but it also gives your opponent the information and Mana Drain is just so much worse when opponent is aware of it.

Dread Return - I've seen pyyhttu play his very ugly-looking combo deck for a while and I think it cannot win unless it can naturally draw the Hermit with a discard backup. Even if I were to assume that list isn't the most optimal one, the number of things that can royally screw you over are just too numerous. If the Loam would come back to the format, we would start to see more GY hate anyways, and Dread Return cannot win past an active Nihil Spellbomb. The deck can win for sure, so someone might have incentive to pla it, bt I think it's just too inconsistent.


How should the huge hl tournaments should be called if not Grand Prix  ;)?

GP (not an acronym, just GP).


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Orkpopper on 18-01-2012, 08:30:09 PM
Will the results of this questionnaire be posted here?
Would be interesting...


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Vazdru on 18-01-2012, 09:38:51 PM
Will the results of this questionnaire be posted here?
Would be interesting...

yes the results will be posted ...probably within the next two or three weeks


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Kassow-Rossing on 19-01-2012, 02:42:39 PM
Name: Patrick Kassow Rossing


How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?
9
I think you've done a really good job so far.


How do you rate the highlander mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?
10
I keep changing my mind from 8-10 because I also like the Commander mulligan rule, but I think this is the best still.


How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules) in average
Several times a week except for those mandatory pauses for a few weeks once a year :)


Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)
1. Intuition because it keeps Life from the Loam from getting unbanned. Not because it's particularly strong on its own. Sometimes decisions like this has to be made for the benefit of the format as a whole. See below for more.

Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)
1. Life from the Loam. I don't think Life from the Loam is a threat to the format unless you can tutor it up while also tutoring for Wasteland and/or the Onslaught Land cycles. If Intuition is gone, this won't be possible very easily since Gifts has already been banned (Thx to the Council)
2. Enlightened Tutor. This card should get unbanned if Birthing Pod gets banned in my opinion.
3. Yawgmoth's Will. Not that powerful a card any longer. I believe it will be too slow for most decks to use it properly and those that can, will not end up being tier 1 decks anyways. I trust the playtesting of the HL Council to make the right decision, whatever that decision might be.
4. Dread Return. I also don't think this deck will enable a tier 1 deck either. Same as above what concerns the HL Councils decisions.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: DarkLight on 19-01-2012, 07:49:37 PM
Name: Florian Stadler

How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10?
9

How do you rate the highlander mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?
10

How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules) in average?
Several times a week

How often have you played on a HL-GP?
4 GPs

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why?
1. Mishra's Workshop - even if you are on the draw you most time have an advantage after you play first round "workshop + manastone" if you are on the play with the same start the game is almost over if you dont have any counterspells
2. Sensei's Devining Top - annoying staller card

Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why?
I'm happy with the banned cards or maybe ...
1. Strip Mine - the meta in the last years go more and more to 4c 5c maybe an unban would give some mono or 2c decks a come back

How should the huge hl tournaments should be called if not Grand Prix ?
"The chosen one"

My opinion to Stoneforge Mystic: It's just a two mana sorcery tutor for equipments. My experience is in ~50% of the games Stoneforge Mystic searched an equipment he dies before he could bring it into play. There is enough playable creature and artifact removal to handle.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Maqi on 19-01-2012, 10:22:40 PM
Name: Thomas Stier

How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10?
8

How do you rate the highlander mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?
9

The highlander mulligan is a great achievement and mitigates one of Magic's most fatal flaws - randomness. Recently however I began to dislike the huge gap between a "hl-mulled" hand of 7 and a hand that must be "Paris-mulliganed" after the "hl-mull".
The hl mulligan allows for less lands in the deck, which is usually a good thing because it let's you avoid mana flood. However, a 6-card hand that can't anymore be improved by "hl-mulling" will almost never be able to win against a "hl-optimized" full 7 and will have serious mana issues. This creates a new angle of randomness - namely "losing to the mulligan". Not being "greedy" with the mulligan doesn't really solve the problem, since "greed" is mostly right when it comes to HL starting hands. I don't actually know wat can be done about this problem or even if others do perceive it as a problem at all.

How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules) in average?
Usually twice a week

How often have you played on a HL-GP?

3 GPs

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why?
None

I've always considered HL to be kind of an eternal format in which almost all the nice and dearly remembered cards from the past should be allowed to be played. Therefore I feel that the banned list should be kept as short as possible.

Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why?
Lion's Eye Diamond
Mystical Tutor
Enlightened Tutor

All of these fit into certain combo strategies. And combo needs a little help right now. There's definitely more to be said about those cards but I guess that would be an independent thread.

There's one thing however that I want to add. I really don't agree with the recent sentiments of unbanning Yawgmoth's Will in order to boost the combo archetype. The card is too strong in the already established 4-5c Goodstuff decks - in much the same manner as Gifts Ungiven was.

How should the huge hl tournaments should be called if not Grand Prix ?
HL World Cup, HL Championship


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: MMD on 21-01-2012, 11:19:38 AM
Name: MMD / Björn Ortmann

How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?


8, I am fine with it in general

How do you rate the highlander mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?


8, I like the "flow", but the problem is that this supports a greedy mana base and a 4-5C build (see bannings)

How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules) in average

1-2 times a month  :-[

How often have you played on a HL-GP?

This one was my 5ths (in a row)

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

Fetch Lands  :o – explanation/discussion in the forum

Birthing Pod -  Activating this twice is game imo which is quite easy to accomplish and difficult to stop.

Mana Drain (Demonic Tutor) - People outside of HL still laugh about this and it is hard to argue based on the power level of the cards itself. The aggro meta can be the only excuse for not banning them.

Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

Why not trying some of these cards for one season and see what happens:
Dread Return
Life from the Loam (switched with Intuition)
Lion's Eye Diamond
Umezawa's Jitte
Yawgmoth's Will


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Vazdru on 22-01-2012, 12:11:29 AM
In both years 2010 and 2012 exactly 43 participants  :)


2012

   
   Ban:                  Unban:               
   Birthing Pod      20      46,51%      Life from the Loam      11      25,58%   
   Stoneforge Mystic      13      30,23%      Yawgmoth's Will      9      20,93%   
   Sensei's Divining Top      7      16,28%      Gifts Ungiven      8      18,60%   
   Mana Drain      6      13,95%      Dread Return      8      18,60%   
   Batterskull      4      9,30%      Enlightened Tutor      8      18,60%   
   Mishra's Workshop      4      9,30%      Library of Alexandria      5      11,63%   
   Worldly Tutor      4      9,30%      Mystical Tutor      5      11,63%   
   Jace, the Mind Sculptor      3      6,98%      Lion's Eye Diamond      5      11,63%   
   Demonic Tutor      3      6,98%      Entomb      4      9,30%   
   Aether Vial      2      4,65%      Umezawa's Jitte      3      6,98%   
   Eladamri's Call      2      4,65%      Balance      2      4,65%   
   Intuition      2      4,65%      Sol Ring      1      2,33%   
   Moat      1      2,33%      Survival of the Fittest      1      2,33%   
   Crumbling Sanctuary      1      2,33%      Tinker      1      2,33%   
   Channel      1      2,33%      Strip Mine      1      2,33%   
   Wheel of Fortune      1      2,33%                     
   Wasteland      1      2,33%                     
   Fetchlands      1      2,33%                     
                                 



________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

2010
   

   Ban:                  Unban:               
   Natural Order      11      25,58%      Life from the Loam      11      25,58%   
   Mana Drain      7      16,28%      Trinisphere      9      20,93%   
   Demonic Tutor      6      13,95%      Buried Alive      8      18,60%   
   Mishra's Workshop      5      11,63%      Enlightened Tutor      7      16,28%   
   Oath of Druids      5      11,63%      Yawgmoth's Will      6      13,95%   
   Gifts Ungiven      4      9,30%      Mystical Tutor      5      11,63%   
   Aether Vial      3      6,98%      Entomb      5      11,63%   
   Sensei's Divining Top      3      6,98%      Umezawa's Jitte      4      9,30%   
   Progenitus      2      4,65%      Tolarian Academy      4      9,30%   
   Moat      2      4,65%      Library of Alexandria      4      9,30%   
   Worldly Tutor      2      4,65%      Imperial Seal      4      9,30%   
   Stoneforge Mystic      2      4,65%      Dread Return      3      6,98%   
   Intuition      2      4,65%      Wheel of Fortune      2      4,65%   
   Trygon Predator      1      2,33%      Survival of the Fittest      1      2,33%   
   Onslaught Cycle-Lands      1      2,33%      Strip Mine      1      2,33%   
   Worldgorger Dragon      1      2,33%      Skullclamp      1      2,33%   
   Channel      1      2,33%      Mind Twist      1      2,33%   
   Power Artifact      1      2,33%      All Moxes      1      2,33%   
   Thopter Foundry      1      2,33%                     
   Protean Hulk      1      2,33%                     
   Karakas      1      2,33%                     
   Price of Progress      1      2,33%                     
   Quasli Pridemage      1      2,33%                     
   Shahrazad      1      2,33%                     
   

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

2012

                                    
   
   Banned-List                  Mulligan               
   10      4      9,30%            22      51,16%   
   9      17      39,53%            12      27,91%   
   8      14      32,56%            5      11,63%   
   7      5      11,63%                  0,00%   
   6      2      4,65%            2      4,65%   
   5            0,00%                  0,00%   
   4            0,00%                  0,00%   
   3            0,00%            1      2,33%   
   2            0,00%                  0,00%   
   1      1      2,33%            1      2,33%   
   -            0,00%                  0,00%   
         43      100,00%            43      100,00%   
                                 

 Average Banned-List: 8,21
Average Mulligan: 8,93

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

2010
                           
      
                                 
   Banned-List                  Mulligan               
   10      3      6,98%      10      28      65,12%   
   9      17      39,53%      9      1      2,33%   
   8      13      30,23%      8      5      11,63%   
   7      9      20,93%      7      1      2,33%   
   6            0,00%      6      3      6,98%   
   5            0,00%      5      3      6,98%   
   4      1      2,33%      4            0,00%   
   3            0,00%      3      1      2,33%   
   2            0,00%      2            0,00%   
   1            0,00%      1      1      2,33%   
   -            0,00%                     
         43      100,00%            43      100,00%   
                                 
Rating of Banned-Liste 8,23 (7,19 in 2008)
Ratng of Mulligan 8,67 (8,92 in 2008)


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: LasH on 22-01-2012, 03:00:03 PM
Thx for the infos.

Interesting for me that ppl rather wanna have the 1 mana mirage tutor's in the format than banned. Birthing Pod really doesnt need any explantion (sotf 2.0).

I faced 2 ld decks at the gp. Ppl start building with land destruction which is a good thing in this 4c meta. I hope an unban of lftl won't kill this developing. Im pretty sure the unban of lftl will also affect reanimator decks, which alrdy have a very bad meta. Lftl might push gravehate (OOze is going to be the mvp).

@ MMD: Ppl outside of the format who dont play the format are not even close to judge about the powerlvl of cards in this format. Best example of this would be memory jar/timetwister. Ask your ppl about these cards. Such  feared cards by so many ppl and did u see any good build with it since the unban? Demonic tutor isn't a problem at all, proven many times to just be an answer.



Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Vazdru on 22-01-2012, 03:46:30 PM
Some other interesting facts for me:

  • Natural Order has been the card in 2010 which has been nominated by the community for a ban most frequently. In 2012 noone cares about this card anymore - seems our decision proved right not to ban that card  ;)
  • Life from the Loam is again in the top spot of the community for Unbanning but only two mentioned Intuition for a ban ( exatly like 2 years before ???). But on the other side there were many "suggestions/notes" to leave LftL on Banned-List especially because that card would make the game more slowly and annoying.
  • 5 guys wanna have LoA back but noone mentioned Academy  ;)
  • the most recent unbannings seem to be ok for the community, noone mentioned Trinisphere, only one Wheel of Fortune

the 21 guys who quoted playing Highlander more than once each week (or at least trying to do so) voted this way:                                 
   
   Ban:                  Unban:               
   Birthing Pod      9      42,86%      Yawgmoth's Will      6      28,57%   
   Stoneforge Mystic      5      23,81%      Gifts Ungiven      5      23,81%   
   Sensei's Divining Top      5      23,81%      Life from the Loam      5      23,81%   
   Mana Drain       3      14,29%      Enlightened Tutor      4      19,05%   
   Aether Vial      2      9,52%      Mystical Tutor      3      14,29%   
   Eladamri's Call      2      9,52%      Dread Return      3      14,29%   
   Mishra's Workshop      2      9,52%      Entomb      2      9,52%   
   Intuition      2      9,52%      Library of Alexandria      1      4,76%   
   Batterskull      1      4,76%      Umezawa's Jitte      1      4,76%   
   Demonic Tutor      1      4,76%      Balance      1      4,76%   
   Worldly Tutor      1      4,76%      Strip Mine      1      4,76%   
   Wasteland      1      4,76%      Lion's Eye Diamond      1      4,76%   

Almost 25% don't like Sensei's  ;) On the other side more than 75% don't mind playing with/vs Sensei's.
Almost 25% nominated Gifts Ungiven for Unban but almost 30% Yawgmoth's Will - only one of them mentioned both cards.
Almost 25% nominated Life from the Loam for Unban - only one of them nominated both Gifts Ungiven and Life from the Loam.
 


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Dreamer on 23-01-2012, 11:09:50 AM
You'll pry my Pod from my cold, dead fingers. Or with appeasements like replacement tutors and Loam, I guess :P

Personally, Stoneforge isn't much of a problem at our shop, but guess it's good to kill it. Top, too perhaps. Wouldn't mourn either of those. Pod I will protest violently unless I get other fun things to replace it.

I'd like testing out unbanning Loam (please don't ban Intuition at the same time), Enlightened/Mystical Tutor and perhaps Y-Win or Dread Return.

Highlander once a week as the only Magic format with Rares I bother with anymore.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Tabris on 23-01-2012, 04:07:50 PM
For now just in german but I summarized my reasons for banning pod and unbanning lftl in this thread. Feedback would be appreciated (I am open minded ;) )

http://www.mtg-forum.de/index.php?s=&showtopic=76653&view=findpost&p=803058 (http://www.mtg-forum.de/index.php?s=&showtopic=76653&view=findpost&p=803058)


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: pyyhttu on 23-01-2012, 07:35:17 PM
Those are some pretty interesting figures. To me the Natural Order case reminds that the ban decisions should not be made lightly or hastily, but to be tested and pondered on a longer term.

@Tabris: I don't always read my magic threads in German, but when I do, I'll make sure I read that one. Thanks for the pointer, bookmarked.


Title: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: ChristophO on 23-01-2012, 11:55:07 PM

I strongly agree that Birthing Pod is too powerful. It tutors a creature directly into play for 1 generic mana and 2 lifepoints as a "cost". Because of using Citp Effect creatures or mechanics like Persist Birthing Pod = 1 free spell of your choice per turn.

I strongly dislike the motion to unban Life form the Loam. Current "pure" control builds tend to be UW; UR, UB, or a 3 color combination of U and two of WBR that are not Tier 1 in my opinion (placing in a Top 8 certainly is possible but not easy). Life from the Loam is far more harder to remove than Crucible of Worlds and also is a engine card (by dredging good lands into your yard which Crucible can not do). Life form the loam also punishes mana denial strategies that are powerful against slugish 5 color midrange decks. Ponza is a good T2 deck to have in the meta to keep people honest just like Blood Moon/Winter Orb aggro. I do not believe an unban would create a powerful Retrace deck or some such. It would severly strengthen UG Aggro conmtrol however. I believe in that deck one of the strongest plays being on the play is T1 Mana elf, T2 intuition for LftL; Wasteland, cycleland enabling one waste every turn starting on turn 3. To prevent this either the one mana cycle lands would have to go or Intuition. I did not play Highlander on a serious level during that time but I understand the Oath vs. Loam vs. Survival Meta was despised by a lot of players. I would be happy to here some stories from that time. 

Here is an old list thay Payron posted 2010 that was pretty sucessful:
12 Island
11 Forest
1 Tropical Island
1 Wasteland
1 breeding Pool
1 Trinquil Thicket
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Maze of Ith
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest

Creatures:

1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Looter il-Kor
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Serendib Efreet
1 Trinket Mage
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Masticore
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Cloudthresher
1 Mystic Snake
1 Troll Ascetic
1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
1 Phantom Centaur
1 Wall of Roots
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Spike Weaver
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Ramping Baloth
1 Ravenous Baloth
1 Trygon Predator
1 Eternal Witness
1 Man-o´-War
1 Mulldrifter
1 Lotuscobra
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Grazing Gladehart

Spells:

1 Mana Leak
1 Miscalculation
1 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
1 Force of Will
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Upheaval
1 Counterspell
1 Future Sight
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Treachery
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Brainstorm
1 Regrowth
1 Back to Basic
1 Aether Veil
1 Remand
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Cryptic Command
1 Compulsive Research
1 Deprive
1 Control Magic
1 Daze
1 Thrist for Knowledge
1 Tormod´s Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Mana Drain


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: coldcrow on 24-01-2012, 01:59:08 AM
This is pure theorycraft and has no basis at all. While UG is a solid deck, it is not really the best deck to abuse loam at all. It lost gifts and your example of t2 intuition has a 1/10 chance. Not to mention you'd lose loam to any gravehate after that. Not to mention so many good creatures have been printed that pure loam-control strategies are way too slow and vulnerable.
And when was retrace a powerful deck?

By the same logic you could ban Knight-otR because it has a powerful synergy with the best lands.
Also the good oath deck played loam itself, because of the powerful synergy.

unbans: Ywill, Gifts, Library, LED, Loam, Balance, Enlightened, (Mystical), (Academy).
ban: nothing

To check out if there really is a dominating combodeck. I mean Academy/Yawg/LED was banned because Stax and TPS made a few top 8 appearances, like Dortmund 10/1/06 3/8. Now please check the recent Top8s in Germany. 3c-5c Goodstuff/aggro decks are dominating and consist of roughly 3/4 of the same cards.
I'd actually be very happy to see a loam deck locking out nonbasics from turn 3 on, which is a bad assumption because you should always run a few basics and also pay a price for your many colours.

I'd really want to see a massive unban to CHECK what is good in our format now and whatnot, you cannot assume that tps/stax/whatever rules like it did when he have now so many good creatures and tools for the aggro/control decks.

For example TPS: They play pridemage, they play waste, they play stifle, some play cheap counters, they play avalanche riders and clique and glen-elendra, and ooze and on and have multiple tutors for each of them. Yes TPS could steal a game on turn 1 with the ultra lucky hand of: Academy, LED, petal, mox, land, Draw 7 or so. But please consider the chances of that hand.
And academy might be too strong, there is no doubt, but unless we have a large collection of actual data there is no way of telling.

Instead of banning, enable other decks instead.

PS: It is not Birthing Pod which makes the Goodstuff decks dominate the meta, the culprits are the good creatures. Do you want to ban them all?
I think the real question is what kind of meta does the council or we want? Do we want a rather uniform meta where 3c-5c decks are the best decks followed by the ubiquitous RDW and maybe one UW? Or would a meta with more distinctive decks be better?


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Nastaboi on 24-01-2012, 08:41:23 AM
Library, Balance and Academy have too swingy efects to allow in any format. I do agree with "rather unban some stuff" approach while I also think that banning some cards too would be the right thing to do.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: ChristophO on 24-01-2012, 10:58:53 AM

@coldcrow:
I do not understand your post at all. Did you even read Tabris post on the german forum? One of his arguments for an unban of Life from the Loam is that it would allow Retrace cards; Seismic Assault etc. into the format and create diversity. I disagree: LftL will retake it's spot in U/G Aggrocontrol and their should also be ways to abuse it with Oath of Druids to find it alongside with some powerful creature like you said. Acusing me of theorycrafting is pointless as well. We are discussing a theoretical unban of a card. Everything voiced here are just opinions; that is why the online league will allow the unbanwatchlist cards so that we can gather experience with the cards on the unbanlist. The most important thing to understand is that perception is king regarding a banlist. It does not matter at all if the right cards are banned and unproblematic cards meta-wise are allowed. If the public opinion reaches a point where they strongly dislike a deck or a keycard and stop showing up for play the format is hurting and a change to the ban list might be beneficial to the format. Obviously the Highlander format seems to be growing again right now. For me that is strong indication that the council is doing a splendid job managing the format. Reintroducing a powerful combo deck might piss off a lot of players nevermind the real strength of the deck. I personally dislike powerful early game ending combos (card interactions that are even too powerful for legacy). I understand those decks are not consistent enough to regularly achieve great placements on the Grand Highlander Prix; I still really dislike seeing a turn 2 Hermit Druid. I also really dislike T1 Trinisphere + Workshop especially being on the draw. I understand that different people have different perspectives. Yet I still do not see the gain of the Trinisphere unban. It just reintroduced a really annoying (but unlikely ofc) opening that people did not like before the banning of Trinisphere as well.

Regarding Birthing pod:
Decks who play birthing pod win by sucessfully resolving it. Tabris has counted 67 resolutions of that spell leading to 60 gam wins. This statistic covers my own experience with the card. The only games I lost resolving the card happened when my opponent was able to stop the pod via Mindcensor in response to first activation and once by copying it with metamorph and using it to find a mindcensor. It is not that the creatures are overpowered; it is casting and finding them for 1 mana and 2 life one a turn that is unfair. This is like saying Tinker is not busted it is all BLightsteel Colossus fault...


My personal opinion regarding banned card management:
Unban:
LED, Yawgmoth'S Will ( I strongly doubt we will be able to break those cards without Balance and Gifts Ungiven)
Cards I would like to test in online league which are on the banlist:
Tolarian Academy in a draw 7 Tolarian academy centered combo list and in Staxx
Life from the loam to diminish my fear regarding the card
Ban:
Birthing Pod
If testing prooves my opinion swap Workshop with Academy.

   


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Payron on 24-01-2012, 03:00:54 PM
I am always open minded for bannings and unbannings, but I am a bit worried about lftl. Some of you talk about the variation of Decks because it could able to play some sort of synergie decks, but when I look back to the meta with lftl then I remember that there was nearly no control deck without green just because of lftl. I can t tell you if it would realy happen again, but I don t think that lftl would help the "lets get more control decks out there" problem.

@pod: I belive also it is way to strong!! I had realy a lot of fun with that card, but If I build up a new deck without green, I always think about if I should just splash green for pod or not!!


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: LasH on 24-01-2012, 03:23:12 PM
I am always open minded for bannings and unbannings, but I am a bit worried about lftl. Some of you talk about the variation of Decks because it could able to play some sort of synergie decks, but when I look back to the meta with lftl then I remember that there was nearly no control deck without green just because of lftl. I can t tell you if it would realy happen again, but I don t think that lftl would help the "lets get more control decks out there" problem.

This is exactly the point.

Alrdy said in german, lftl won't create ANY new deck. No seismic deck, no retrace deck, simply because it didnt when we had it unbanned even with gifts ungiven. The deck which will benefit from this unban is Goodstuff in my opinion, because it will just get a free and solid draw engine and we might loose any kind of landdestruction decks in the format (dont wanna repeat all my arguments from my german post ;).

Futhermore dont forget about the "time" aspect. We alrdy talk about sensei ban ONLY bc of time issues. Lftl is MUCH slower, combined with top frustrating to play against (just in terms of time).

If u wanna see changes to the meta, new/old decks rising, you need to unban drasticly like coldcrow said. The best time to do this would be now, because the gp just happend.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Kassow-Rossing on 25-01-2012, 11:37:33 AM
"Yet I still do not see the gain of the Trinisphere unban."
We are yet to see the loss of the Trinisphere unban as well. Nobody plays it because it's not a strong card. Weak cards should not be on the ban list. Yes there exists a semi-strong combination out there, but you should also be rewarded for playing two cards that do nothing on them own. Workshop is getting tougher and tougher to keep in the deck and should get further and further away from the HL Councils ban list.

So far Trinisphere has been proven right to be unbanned as the HL Council also agrees with:
http://www.magicplayer.org/forum/index.php?topic=760.0
"Our decision to unban Trinisphere proved to be right. The card makes Staxx obviously stronger and is a nice anti-aggro card too but didn't push staxx to next level. Staxx is still tier 2 based on the results we gathered since Trinisphere was unleashed - you'll find only one(!) top HL decklist using Trinisphere (http://mtgpulse.com/events-highlander). For now, that was the reason why Trinisphere has been vanished from the watchlist."



Life from the Loam is only dangerous with cards like Intuition and Gifts Ungiven. Having Demonic Tutor fetching up a LftL or a Wasteland after you have the other is not worse of a problam than fetching up any other combo piece.

If you cannot enable recurring card draw og recurring Wasteland from t4, Life from the Loam should not be a problem => Unban it because the people have wished for this for two years in a row. Sensei is a slow card. Life from the Loam: Not so much. Also after turn 4 you should not cry about losing your non-basic lands recurring with Wasteland if your opponent had the luck to find a 2-card combo and if you only play non-basics.


Staxx is - by all means - still tier 2.0 so I see no reason to fear it. I play it sometimes and it's not too strong. Not at all in fact :)

Library should not get unbanned, but Yawgmoth's Will, Tolarian Academy, Enlightened Tutor (Ban Pod first) could.
Birthing Pod could get banned and Intuition should get banned. Also Gifts should not get unbanned at least for the next few years even though I would love it in all my decks.
I'm fine with Sensei in the format but I wouldn't mind it being banned even though I play it in all my decks.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: SpoCk0nd0pe on 29-02-2012, 05:29:52 PM
I would like to see strip mine unbanned. The only way I see to break this atm is crucible but I do not think it'd be too bad. I think this format could use more LD and in the current meta it's not much stronger then wasteland.

Please don't ban Stoneforge, if he proves to be too strong ban batterskull. Stoneforge is one of the few good 2cc drops this format has.

If you really want to stop multicolor goodstuff aggro you probably have to reduce the library to 60 cards. Wizards is printing too many good aggro critters over the past few years, and so few good control cards (because magic players are whiny about control theese days). This would strengthen combo, control and nonbasic hate, I think it would add a lot of diversity to the meta.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Mythrandir on 29-02-2012, 08:11:57 PM
Stoneforge is one of the few good 2cc drops this format has.


Seriously? One of the few?

Plenty of good 2 CMC drops.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Dreamer on 20-07-2012, 09:40:01 PM
Based on this evening's experiences: Fuck Black Vise. "1: Deal 10 damage to opponent, yay." That I could deal with I guess, but the thing also kills Planeswalkers and worst of all just makes bad hands brutally unfun to play. At least other kinds of bullshit cards like Natural Order need other things to combo with or are stuff like Ankh of Mishra that while ridiculously brutal can be at least controlled by your own play (and punish good hands moreso than bad ones so you have some room to play unoptimally). Black Vise just fucks over bad hands even worse and is just generally a ridiculous piece of shit.

[/salt]


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Kristian on 21-07-2012, 09:55:45 AM
Based on this evening's experiences: Fuck Black Vise. "1: Deal 10 damage to opponent, yay." That I could deal with I guess, but the thing also kills Planeswalkers and worst of all just makes bad hands brutally unfun to play. At least other kinds of bullshit cards like Natural Order need other things to combo with or are stuff like Ankh of Mishra that while ridiculously brutal can be at least controlled by your own play (and punish good hands moreso than bad ones so you have some room to play unoptimally). Black Vise just fucks over bad hands even worse and is just generally a ridiculous piece of shit.

[/salt]
I played Black Vise in mono red, it could be devastating in turn 1. Problem was that it often was a dead card to draw mid to late game where opponents mostly sits at 4-5 cards.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Tiggupiru on 21-07-2012, 10:11:28 AM
Black Vise is largely fair. It's very matchup dependent and is usually pretty weak when you are on the draw. If they go land - birds - go, your vise is dealing most likely full one damage for the rest of the game. It's kinda like Mana Drain. MD has higher upside, but needs a specific set of sequence (you having time to cast it, they not playing around it and you having a good follow up play) to really shine. I see no reason to ban Mana Drain (love the card) and Vise, while not something I usually cast, is completely OK in my book. If Vise would be like "deal 8 damage" every time it's in the opener, then I could see it getting the axe.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Vazdru on 27-12-2013, 08:48:02 PM
This questionnaire will be distributed to the participants of the HL Cup in Hanau next sunday (GP XIII). It's almost the same as the ones before.

Online players are invited to take part in this survey (just quote and fill in). The analysis will be reported here soon.

@ HIGHLANDER COMMUNITY

Name/Nick:_________________________________________________________________


Highlander banned-list

•   Ancestral Recall
•   Balance
•   Birthing Pod
•   Black Lotus
•   Chaos Orb
•   Entomb
•   Falling Star
•   Fastbond
•   Flash
•   Gift's Ungiven
•   Grindstone
•   Imperial Seal
•   Library of Alexandria
•   Mana Crypt
•   Mana Vault
•   Mind Twist   
•   Mox Emerald
•   Mox Jet
•   Mox Pearl
•   Mox Ruby
•   Mox Sapphire
•   Mystical Tutor
•   Natural Order new!
•   Shahrazad
•   Skullclamp
•   Sol Ring
•   Stoneforge Mystic
•   Strip Mine
•   Survival of the Fittest
•   Tolarian Academy
•   Time Vault
•   Time Walk
•   Tinker
•   Umezawa's Jitte
•   Vampiric Tutor   

•   Amulet of Quoz
•   Bronze Tablet
•   Contract from Below
•   Darkpact
•   Demonic Attorney
•   Jeweled Bird
•   Rebirth
•   Tempest Efreet
•   Timmerian Fiends



How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?

__________


Which mulligan-rule do you prefer?


   Free Mulligan

   Spoils / Poker Mulligan

   Road to Paris



How do you rate the free mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?

__________

 
How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules)


   several times weekly

   once per week

   once per month
   
   only tournaments



How often have you played on a HL-GP / -Cup?

___________




Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________



Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________



Thanks a lot for your participation!

Helpful suggestions are welcome!

_____________________________________________________________________________

_____________________________________________________________________________


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: so_not on 28-12-2013, 01:12:52 PM
Highlander banned-list

•   Tolarian Academy


Might want to fix this.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Vazdru on 28-12-2013, 02:41:36 PM
Highlander banned-list

•   Tolarian Academy


Might want to fix this.

thx


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: so_not on 29-12-2013, 06:22:34 PM
Name/Nick: Aleksi Väänänen/so_not

How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?
5

Which mulligan-rule do you prefer?
Free Mulligan

How do you rate the free mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?
At the moment I thinks it's a perfect 10.

How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules)
several times weekly

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)
These 5 are the cards that create the most degenerate games. This means that whenever one of these cards is involved in the game, it totally controls the way the game is played out. Some of these are actually so stupid that they completely wipe out many otherwise playable archtypes. You really don't want to play any sort of midrange deck if your opponents are having Titans, Wurmcoils, Griselbargains, Marit Lages and Mindslavers during early turns or creating an army of thopter tokens each game.

Tolarian Academy - This card is way more powerful than any other card in the format. I guess the reason why Academy decks haven't rose as a dominant force yet is that not enough players are making the effort to build the best academy deck. Also decks in general are pretty powerful these days and have the necessary tools (disruption+fast clock) to compete academy decks. In our meta many players dedicate time in building academy decks of various styles and although they are still probably far from perfect, the games involving this card are totally random and it's just really stupid card. To its defence I must say that Academy mirrors are hilarious. See this event for example where things are heading: http://mtgpulse.com/event/15302#214530

Oath of Druids - This is perfect example for the aforementioned degenerateness. Yes you must commit your whole deck to it, but that doesn't change the fact that it makes games very random. For the aggro players it's a very frustrating card to play against and probably should change the meta a lot more than it currently is. See this list for example: http://mtgpulse.com/event/14411#204248

Wasteland - The card that causes the most random wins in the whole format and also an auto include in EVERY deck. There are also no good arguments for this card to be legal. If you need a land that destroys non basic lands, you can definitely use Tectonic Edge or Dust Bowl but that really really is not what this card is used most of the time. Mostly it's just a random screw card and the ultimate random screw card it is.

True-Name Nemesis - Oh well, this have just been introduced to the format but it's yet another reason why you should stay away from creatures and just do unfair things.

Sensei's Divining Top - Yes better player probably gets a bigger advantage with this but it's not very hard to top, fetch, top, draw, top etc. over and over again. It just makes playing less interesting and more frustrating.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Tiggupiru on 30-12-2013, 07:58:18 PM
Name/Nick: Janne Öhman / Tiggupiru


How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?
7

Which mulligan-rule do you prefer?
Free Mulligan - Take this with grain of salt (I haven't had any testing in tournament setting, so I don't think I am qualified enough to answer this, but it has made testing more enjoyable for me)

How do you rate the free mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?
I don't think I can answer this without any tournaments under my belt

How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules)
several times weekly

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

Wasteland - See explanation above. Though I think if Academy is going to be part of the format, Wasteland needs to stay.

True-Name Nemesis - I think this should be banned in Legacy on the grounds of how it pushes some of the decks out of the metagame. HL is a different story, having TNN doesn't make any strategies nonviable, but it's a really "Oops" - draw in your opener/early turns. Stupid card.

I haven't had enough testing to say anything about Tolarian Academy. I feel the current iterations of the decks are perfectly beatable, but Academy decks 4.0 are probably going to be way more powerful than these current prototypes. Too early to say in several fronts, I think.


Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)


Natural Order - Replace with Titan if this is really a problem, which I really don't think it is. I felt like this ban was just as unnecessary (if not even more than) as the Stoneforge one. Speaking of which...

Stoneforge Mystic - There was a time I considered this to be problematic enough, but not anymore. Powerful card, but I don't think it is nearly the levels of degenerate advantage of Oaths and Academies, both of which I am currently okay having in the format anyway. Simple innocent Stoneforge is nothing compared to lots of things happening in the format.

Mystical Tutor - Probably too powerful to have floating around with Academy, but I could be wrong. If Academy gets axed, I am positive this isn't going to wreck anything. I mean, it's not like Demonic or anything.

Vampiric Tutor - Either unban this, or ban Demonic. I don't care either way, but powerlevel wise there is no reason not to have both or neither around.

Entomb - Reanimator is not tier 1 currently and I really don't think banning of Entomb was the reason of this deck's decline. Best card of the deck, sure, but the deck is completely playable without it. We've had some sweet cards since this got banned (Scavenging Ooze and Deathrite Shaman) and I feel Reanimator could use a little push.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Orkpopper on 31-12-2013, 11:00:10 AM
Name/
Nick: Marc (Orkpopper)

How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to
10 (1=poor, 10=great)?

8

Which mulligan-rule do you prefer?
Free Mulligan

How do you rate the free mulligan on a scale from 1 to
10?

8
At first I did not like the mulligan change, but after some matches it appeared to be the better solution for our format. It still has its downsides (more games are dicided by manascrew and nutdraws), but games feel better and more fun overall.

How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules)
several times weekly

How often have you played on a HL-GP / -Cup?
3

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why?
(max. the 5 most important ones)


True-Name Nemesis -  New to the format, but seems to be brutally unfair. Let's give it a try, put this card on the watchlist and discuss it again in 3 months.

Price of Progress - I'm quite surprised that few players think that this card is a problem. 8-10 damage against most decks in the format on a 2 mana instant spell is very powerful. I saw too many red decks win games in which they were dead on the board by random PoP from the top...

Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list
and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)


Entomb - Reanimator, Pattern-Rector and other GY based decks are not a problem right now, so give them a new tool

Gifts Ungiven - A 4 Mana Tutor which needs skill to use, imo not unfair

Mana Vault - Is this any worse than Grim Monolith? Costs 1 Mana less, but can only be untapped in upkeep, which is a huge disadvantage

Imperial Seal / Vampiric Tutor - They are not any better than other Tutors in the format


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: DarkLight on 31-12-2013, 02:48:46 PM
Name/Nick: Flo / WitH-FuLL-Force

How do you rate the banned-list?
(on a scale from 1 to 10)
8

Which mulligan-rule do you prefer?
Spoils Mulligan

How do you rate the free mulligan?
(on a scale from 1 to 10)

5
I think with the 'free mulligan' more games are won or lost by individual draws (Mana flood /-screw or Top-Decks)

How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules)?
Several times weekly

How often have you played on a HL-GP / -Cup?
5

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why?
(max. the 5 most important ones)

True-Name Nemesis -  This creature give the opponent no interaction and can win games alone.

Mana Drain - Disruption + Ramp for 2 Mana seems pretty unfair for me.

Tolarian Academy - The reason(s) why this card was banned for so long can't be wrong now.

Oath of Druids - The most decks can't handle turn 1-3 Oath so it's really difficult to handle an early fatty or disrupt a combo win.

Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why?
(max. the 5 most important ones)

Umezawa's Jitte - I dont think this card is still so powerful that a place on the banlist is justified.

Strip Mine - The most lands who will be destroyed are non-Basics anyway, so it would be cool to have a second 'Wasteland'.

Stoneforge Mystic - I just want this card back, ban 'Batterskull' instead :P


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: azmotus on 31-12-2013, 04:37:18 PM
Name/Nick: Sami Laitinen / azmotus

How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?
8

Which mulligan-rule do you prefer?
Free Mulligan

How do you rate the free mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?
9
 
How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules)
several times weekly / once per week

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

True-Name Nemesis - A cheap beater that requires very specific removal to get rid of.

Mishra's Workshop - The only reason this card isn't already banned is the pricetag. If more people could afford to run it, it would soon become apparent how broken it is.

Dark Depths - Stupid two card combo that can be easily tutored and hard to disrupt. Can go to almost every deck there is, especially if you're playing green.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Vazdru on 31-12-2013, 04:48:18 PM
I've collected 42 lists at GP Hanau, so we have already 47 feedbacks.
It will take some time to analysis it, probably i will post the results next week or so.

Feel free to join the evaluation so long  :)


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Doks on 02-01-2014, 05:58:35 PM
Name/Nick: Marcel / Doks

How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?

9 (For me, it's pretty close to perfect currently since it allows certain strong cards for every deck type and there are only a few debatable choices; future development (hello Academy!) should be taken into consideration though)

Which mulligan-rule do you prefer?

Free Mulligan

How do you rate the free mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?

10. Imo, either you like it (10) or you don't (1). I think it has adressed a lot of the problems people criticized (greed decks, generally too low land count in all archetypes, less skill required to make a deck work when you can shape your starting hand etc.) which is a good thing.
 
How often do you play Highlander

Once per week.

How often have you played on a HL-GP / -Cup?

2 times.

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

Worldly Tutor: Either have these CMC 1 tutors allowed alltogether or ban them all (with the exception of the black one maybe). Each archetype profits tremendously from 1 or 2 of them, so why have them not all available / banned for fairness reasonings?  

True-Name Nemesis: This is debatable. Seeing that Stoneforge Mystic is banned, this guy seems banworthy, too. He is pretty decisive in the creature-based strategy matchup. Not so much vs control, but still. Should wait for future development.

Back to Basics, Blood Moon, Price of Progress: Pretty much all the common non-basic hate. I have not thought about it yet until I read the suggestions in this thread, but now that I think of it, there might be something true about it. And I say this as someone who loves himself some Izzet control. Although I like my opponents conceding to a well-timed B2B/BM, I have to admit that there might be a problem if I win via a pretty simple strategy (even worse: a single card) that usually has a much, much harder time against more resilient mana bases (for example, playing against two-colored Control as an Izzet mage feels like playing with half of your deck only). I guess the folks before me explained it way better, so I stop here.

Wasteland: I can't say yet if I want it to go or not. Fact is: Wasteland is an autoinclude in almost any deck. The random wins an early Wasteland onto some dual land provides is nothing this format needs, especially after we got rid of the hand-sculpting spoils mulligan. Even when it's not that game-changing, it's still nice to get rid of the annoying manland or slowing the opponent down while being in a favorable board position. It's basically never bad (except for maybe the first turns when you need coloured mana, but that's something different). On the other hand, this might become the most important to Academy decks and currently is one of the few ways to deal with other strong utility lands. I'm not sure about that one, but it's worth taking it into consideration.

Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

Vampiric Tutor: Yes, this is debatable and I know there are some good arguments against it, so don't get me wrong when I just name some positives right now. Its powerlevel is certainly higher than the other allowed CMC 1 Mirage tutors since it searches every type of card for the cost of 2 life, but I still think it's not that much over the top. As long as we have its bigger brother for 1B in the format (which I'm a big fan of), arguments saying the effect was "too broken" seem pretty weak. Also I predict that certain archetypes (namely Combo / certain control decks) can benefit a lot more from it than the predominant creature-based strategies (but it's still good there, no question), which brings archetypes closer up to par. Lastly, I think that Black as a colour is in desperate need of having another strong card.  


Helpful suggestions are welcome!

The Council shall continue to do a good job like this and please never ban Mana Drain l0l.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Tabris on 03-01-2014, 02:13:44 AM
I AM very upset by this post Doks. How can you realy asking for a ban of pop, b2b or blood moon when we just had an HL Cup with the dominance of ONE single deck (for the record I dont think that deck is a problem but the mentality of the players).

In addition to that: the random win generated by wasteland IS EXACTLY what our format needs. Players need to be punished because the mechanics of the game itself is asking for that kind of hate. People have to lose games more frequently bc of holding 2 land hands with nothing but business. As long as people play 35 lands or even less they need to feel what that means stats-wise. (assuming we still use the inferior free mulligan).

I heard the 4c blood player held a 2 land hand in the semifinals with aether vial + hymn to tourarch (no double black on hand) and was on the draw against an ultra aggressive naya deck and is KEEPING that hand bc he thinks "every creature I draw is online". That kind of thinking needs to be purged and some cards help us to do that (if the variance is on vacation for that deck) (and just to be clear there are some situations were you have to be greedy bc you have to play your outs but this is not the kind of situation. One drop one Drop two drop and that would be game, easy as that)


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: phyrexianblackmetal on 03-01-2014, 03:29:43 AM
First of all, I'd like to say that I strongly agree with Tabris and that it's a shame that people are suggesting Nonbasic Hate to be banned. As it currently stands, these cards are what keeps the greedy decks in check most efficiently. The natural risk/reward balance of Magic has become watered down in our format, there is little to no risk involved in adding more colors to your deck. Nonbasic Hate however is one of the consistent risk factors still there. Removing it would be very detrimental to the format. Greed should be punished, not rewarded.

Name/Nick: Niclas/phyrexianblackmetal


How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?

8. I'm quite happy with the current ban list, there's not much that could be improved.


Which mulligan-rule do you prefer?

Free Mulligan, although I would not mind if the Spoils Mulligan would be reintroduced.


How do you rate the free mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?

5. Again, although I personally prefer the Free Mulligan, I do not see it as inherently better than the Spoil Mulligan. I also think that neither of them is necessarily the perfect mulligan variant for the format.

 
How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules)


several times weekly/once per week


How often have you played on a HL-GP / -Cup?

0 times.


Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

True-Name Nemesis: Take this with a grain of salt. TNN is not an unbeatable card, it can only be removed with specific removal, but that's nothing we haven't seen on other creatures like for example Thrun, the Last Troll. What really makes this card broken is its resilience in combat. It's unblockable and at the same time pretty much a perfect blocker, which makes it very hard for many creature-based decks to deal with an early TNN. Still, it might not be enough to make this card ban-worthy, but it should at least be put on the watchlist.


Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

Entomb: I don't think this card would be too problematic if it was unbanned. It's by far not a card that every black deck would want. Yes, it can be very potent in the right deck, but so can other cards (like the recently unbanned Tolarian Academy). It would also strengthen graveyard-based decks, which are pretty much nonexistent in our current meta except for a few exceptions. I think unbanning this card would not completely throw the format out of balance, but provide a possibility for further developing deck diversity.

Imperial Seal: Vampiric Tutor might be too strong for the format, but Imperial Seal might be worth considering for an unbanning. Yes, it's a very cheap tutor, but I think that sorcery-speed and its high pricetag would be enough to keep it in check.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Kenshin on 03-01-2014, 06:49:47 AM
I am 100% with Tabris here. We hardly see any two color strategies because it is so damn easy to go for 4 colors. And without the hate red and blue have I am pretty sure there would be no incentive left to build 2 colored decks. As much as I hate to lose against a random B2B or Blood Moon, I am sure there is a dire need for cards that keep the 4c decks in check.

And as for Wasteland: In most games it is used to get rid of a pesky utility land. I accept the few games, where it is used to colorscrew or manascrew an unlucky draw because of it's upsides. Compared to most other constructed formats highlander decks have a ridiculously low amount of land cards. There are several reasons why this actually works:
a) the format has a load of mana-elves/birds to accelerate and fix
b) free mulligan/spoils mulligan make it easier to fish for lands
c) we have all the manipulation spells ever printed

I too think greed should be punishable.

I turned my poll sheet in at the gp but I thought about a card that I want to add to the ban list:

Blood-braid Elf: With the high amount of quality cheap creatures/spells our format offers her to flip and the extremely low amount of true control decks present, I do believe this card is one of the nails in the coffin of control decks. But I am not too sure about it. Maybe I just hate playing against that card.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: berlinballz on 03-01-2014, 10:51:17 AM
i completely agree with tabris on this. if there was no 4-of wasteland in legacy, every deck would play 5 colors. there should actually be more wastelands in highlander. and i really don't mean to be offensive, but i cannot take anyone's opinion seriously, who only asks for cards for their deck to be unbanned and for cards they hate playing against to be banned.

try to look at the bigger picture. i did considerably well in hanau and i'm still very unhappy with the direction the meta is taking since the rule change. stop being so fucking selfish, please. i don't wanna have to move to victoria.



Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: orca- on 03-01-2014, 11:14:18 AM
Imperial Seal: Vampiric Tutor might be too strong for the format, but Imperial Seal might be worth considering for an unbanning. Yes, it's a very cheap tutor, but I think that sorcery-speed and its high pricetag would be enough to keep it in check.

Really?
"A card is fine in the format cause it costs 300€?" That's what you are saying!


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: ChristophO on 03-01-2014, 12:41:45 PM

@Tabris:
I am really upset with your post. The tournament was not dominated by one deck. Out of 20 Blood players only 3 (15%) made Top16 (Top 12%)  (finishing x-2 or better). In comparison 3 out of 10 (30%) Izzet players made Top 16 as well... . Also the metagame slice for control is way up and the slice for Aggro decks is down. I also do not understand your mulligan rant at all. People need to be punished by wasteland (I agree by the way) because they need to keep punishable hands in their 4color decks more often now thanks to the free mulligan. To me that is a good development! And the sucess of the Izzet guys and the demise of 5color Aggro prooves my point (if one wants to put so much meaning into a single tournament).



Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: W0lf on 03-01-2014, 12:50:23 PM
The free mulligan made it more valuable ro play a random pile like 4c, than to play a decent well thought deck. There is a high amount of izzet decks because they profit from greedy luckdecks. So basically you have created a 2 deck meta qith the free mulligan. Ggs..


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: phyrexianblackmetal on 03-01-2014, 12:53:15 PM
Imperial Seal: Vampiric Tutor might be too strong for the format, but Imperial Seal might be worth considering for an unbanning. Yes, it's a very cheap tutor, but I think that sorcery-speed and its high pricetag would be enough to keep it in check.

Really?
"A card is fine in the format cause it costs 300€?" That's what you are saying!

No, that's not what I'm saying (or at least not, what I meant, maybe I didn't articulate my thoughts that well). If a card is obviously broken, it doesn't matter how expensive it is. If a card wins 90% of the games it is played in, it should probably be banned, no matter if it costs 3€ or 300€. I just don't think that's the case with Imperial Seal. It's a 1-mana tutor that can search for everything, but I think that the fact it's a sorcery brings it down in power level enough to consider unbanning. You can't play it in response to a discard spell or at the end of your opponent's turn, meaning you don't get the card you tutored for until your next turn, unless you already have a carddraw spell. This should give your opponent enough time to prepare/react. The high pricetag is just an added bonus. If I am wrong and the card is in fact too powerful for the format, the pricetag will most likely limit the damage it causes to the format before being banned again, since so little people can afford it that you won't see it that often.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: W0lf on 03-01-2014, 01:31:00 PM
And to make one thing clear. The higher amount of control decks is in no way connected to the free mulligan, it is obviously because of the tolarian unban which is a good thing. Without cards like academy or oath there would be no reason to play any type of control deck besides soft u/r nonbasic hate.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: so_not on 03-01-2014, 02:06:29 PM
And to make one thing clear. The higher amount of control decks is in no way connected to the free mulligan, it is obviously because of the tolarian unban which is a good thing. Without cards like academy or oath there would be no reason to play any type of control deck besides soft u/r nonbasic hate.

This in fact is a false conclusion as free mulligan (compared to spoils) greatly benefits decks that are less dependent on perfect mana curve.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: W0lf on 03-01-2014, 02:16:21 PM
Control got weakened by the free mulligan simply because it gets to easily lucked out by fast starts as the control player must sometimes keep a hand with too many lategame cards and or special synergy cards etc. It is way harder to play control decks now than it was before this is a simple fact carved into stone that nether you or anyone else can denie.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: so_not on 03-01-2014, 02:18:14 PM
i completely agree with tabris on this. if there was no 4-of wasteland in legacy, every deck would play 5 colors. there should actually be more wastelands in highlander. and i really don't mean to be offensive, but i cannot take anyone's opinion seriously, who only asks for cards for their deck to be unbanned and for cards they hate playing against to be banned.

try to look at the bigger picture. i did considerably well in hanau and i'm still very unhappy with the direction the meta is taking since the rule change. stop being so fucking selfish, please. i don't wanna have to move to victoria.

Yes if there were more actual Wastelands available in the card pool the problem would not be as severe as playing around these cards would increase your chances of winning. As there are only 1 Wasteland in each deck, you never should mulligan your hand if it was otherwise keepable but loses to Wasteland. On the other hand you should definitely build your deck with the aforementioned hate cards (B2B, moon etc.) in mind and play around those cards. Wasteland is just a card that randomly gets you even if you had the perfect two color manabase but suddenly can't play around it due to inherent random nature of the game. In this format Wasteland is just too close a Strip Mine that it's not fun :(


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: so_not on 03-01-2014, 02:19:54 PM
Control got weakened by the free mulligan simply because it gets to easily lucked out by fast starts as the control player must sometimes keep a hand with too many lategame cards and or special synergy cards etc. It is way harder to play control decks now than it was before this is a simple fact carved into stone that nether you or anyone else can denie.

But there are less those lucky fast starts because aggro decks can't always fix their curve and they get more punished from having clunky starting hands than control decks. Just play control, it's actually easier than ever!


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: W0lf on 03-01-2014, 02:25:59 PM
To make the format more diverse again it should be considered to unban more cards to boost control decks.

Library of alexandria, mystical tutor and strip mine come to mind.

I'm sure, if the free mulligan stays, it will be needed to unban more broken stuff zo even the odds between goodstuff and control again. Aggro would profit from a decreased amount of goodstuff decks so the System could work better again.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: carte_blanche on 03-01-2014, 06:08:52 PM
Back to the topic...

Name:
carte_blanche (no clear names in the web... if you're so curious, ask the NSA)

How do you rate the banned list?
9

Which mulligan?
For the time being, I'd like to test the free mulligan a bit more. -> I like this one slightly better than the Spoils mulligan.

Free Mulligan on a scale...
8 (the Spoils one would get a 7.9,though.)

How often do you play HL?
Unfortunately just twice a month or so (time issues).

How often have you played on a HL-GP / -Cup?
Never.

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why?
None for the time beeing. For me it's too early to make a comment on that / I'd like to be patient with the ban hammer until the dust of the Academy unban has settled.

Why not Oath of Druids? - Most of the time I try to land an Oath turn 2 without protection, it will get handeled. Most of the decks are either very fast or very adaptable nowadays. Even though the meta is creature-dominated (at least I got the impression), and Oath obviously is an 'anti-creature' card, there are not too many decks in the tops that abuse Oath (or at least far less than one would expect if the card is as broken as some people claim it is in the HL format). Sure, there are some but compared to the results of other archetypes, I cannot see that such decks dominate in any way. Even though if an Oath deck is played, it's not given, that you'll end up with a very good result. You still have to struggle for it... just as with any other deck.

Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why?
Maybe Entomb - I'm not too afraid of Reanimator decks, since we got two new and strong toys against such decks that are used in a wide range of decks already. Entomb, on the other hand, might be a nice toy for control / combo decks. Especially combo decks don't seem to be very popular (I consider Reanimator to be a combo deck by the way) and / or successful.


@council: Double thumbs up for your efforts to keep us pleased and the format interesting and challenging!


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Doks on 04-01-2014, 12:05:02 AM
I AM very upset by this post Doks. How can you realy asking for a ban of pop, b2b or blood moon when we just had an HL Cup with the dominance of ONE single deck (for the record I dont think that deck is a problem but the mentality of the players).

In addition to that: the random win generated by wasteland IS EXACTLY what our format needs. Players need to be punished because the mechanics of the game itself is asking for that kind of hate. People have to lose games more frequently bc of holding 2 land hands with nothing but business. As long as people play 35 lands or even less they need to feel what that means stats-wise. (assuming we still use the inferior free mulligan).

I heard the 4c blood player held a 2 land hand in the semifinals with aether vial + hymn to tourarch (no double black on hand) and was on the draw against an ultra aggressive naya deck and is KEEPING that hand bc he thinks "every creature I draw is online". That kind of thinking needs to be purged and some cards help us to do that (if the variance is on vacation for that deck) (and just to be clear there are some situations were you have to be greedy bc you have to play your outs but this is not the kind of situation. One drop one Drop two drop and that would be game, easy as that)

There's no need to be upset if you read carefully. I see this evaluation as a great opportunity to communicate what I think is worth looking at (which is why I gave some detailed explanations and called more than 5 cards). The named ones are not candidates I want to see 100% gone with the next ban/unban phase, I just like to point out what I think can be kind of problematic in the near future and should be looked at.

Regarding PoP/B2B/BM: I am saying that one can see a problem in the fact that a single card outright wins a game versus certain decks while being next to useless against others. Obviously it's good having them to keep multicolour in check (which is where I agree with you and currently it seems that we need those anti non-basic strategies to be part of the metagame more than ever), but the exmaple of U/R non-basic hate points at a general problem of the format: there is no real incentive to play only one or two colours. Instead of fighting top strategies with narrow anti-cards (is this not a sign of a flawed playing environment?), we need a general solution (although I think that banning fetchlands is not the right one, but that's another disussion).

About Wasteland: A random Turn 1/2 Wasteland can screw every kind of deck (and therefore it's not specifically needed to "punish multicolour"), no matter what, and that is where my criticism is based on after the introduction of the Free Mulligan rule: You don't have to play one of the current top tier multicolour decks to lose a game to a random early Wasteland. People now have to keep mediocre hands more often and those weaker hands appear more often, even if you run enough mana sources. Say I have a hand I'd keep if I knew I wasn't eating a Wasteland in the first turns. I know there is 1 out of 100 cards in my opponent's deck that will roll me over, what do I do? This is not Legacy where I can show clever play by avoiding a potential mana screw, so losing those games is just based on pure luck - does my opponent have the Wasteland or not? Then again, I agree to that extent that we probably need a cheap way to get rid of strong utility lands.

€dit: so_not put summed it up pretty well:

Yes if there were more actual Wastelands available in the card pool the problem would not be as severe as playing around these cards would increase your chances of winning. As there are only 1 Wasteland in each deck, you never should mulligan your hand if it was otherwise keepable but loses to Wasteland. On the other hand you should definitely build your deck with the aforementioned hate cards (B2B, moon etc.) in mind and play around those cards. Wasteland is just a card that randomly gets you even if you had the perfect two color manabase but suddenly can't play around it due to inherent random nature of the game. In this format Wasteland is just too close a Strip Mine that it's not fun :(


Peace.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: MMD on 04-01-2014, 08:33:33 AM
(assuming we still use the inferior free mulligan).
I am very sorry to read that. I hoped that members of the council could communicate in a more objective way, at least in the official forum.

My experiences on the Free Mulligan rule are contrary to your opinion. I tried to get feedback/opinions on the tournament about the mulligan as I was curious about other players experiences and ALL players confirmed that the Free mulligan has improved our game. So my personal poll is about 10:0 for the Free Mulligan but I have not talked to someone from Berlin yet.  ;)

I would bet all my bucks on the Free Mulligan if there would be a new poll.

Some words about the banned list even I have already answered the poll on the tournament:

1. I think that non-basic hate is the glue of the format, even more important in the future. These cards keep the multicolour decks at bay. Loosing against it should only remind you that there is more out there than 3-4C good stuff. Reminder: High risk/high reward.
"If once you start down the dark path, forever it will dominate your destiny"

2. My opinion is that the Banned List is quite ok, except that Oath of Druids, Tolarian Academy, Mana Drain, Demonic Tutor and Mishra´s Workshop burst the power level. The question for me is if the other decks can keep those cards in check. I doubt this at least for Oath and Academy (pls don´t refer to the HLGP Top 8, this is just one big tournament and players choose a deck they are used to play to reach Top8 such as me).





Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: haju on 05-01-2014, 11:37:24 AM
Yes if there were more actual Wastelands available in the card pool the problem would not be as severe as playing around these cards would increase your chances of winning. As there are only 1 Wasteland in each deck, you never should mulligan your hand if it was otherwise keepable but loses to Wasteland. On the other hand you should definitely build your deck with the aforementioned hate cards (B2B, moon etc.) in mind and play around those cards. Wasteland is just a card that randomly gets you even if you had the perfect two color manabase but suddenly can't play around it due to inherent random nature of the game. In this format Wasteland is just too close a Strip Mine that it's not fun :(

There is exactly one of each non-basic in each deck. So this argument can be stated for every card. [SilverBulletAgainstTheDeckOnePlays] is to strong, if my opponent has it I loose. In my opinion, if a manabase is perfect, if there is such a thing, then a wasteland should not disrupt it too much. Of course it's a drawback but otherwise Wasteland would not be a good and therefore played card.

I don't get it why, after every big tournament, there is so much talk about the banlist. Mostly it reads like: A deck with a good matchup against my petdeck/deck I played is available so please do something about it. Thanks to the new mulligan and the current ban list, there are more decks playable then ever at least in my humble opinion. Why is the percentage of the Izzet decks in the top 16 greater than the percentage of the 4c Aggro decks? Maybe because they have a positive matchup against these types of decks? There is a funny thing called meta game. If each deck normaly had a 50% matchup against everything I would agree that something has to be done, but that's simply not the case.

2. My opinion is that the Banned List is quite ok, except that Oath of Druids, Tolarian Academy, Mana Drain, Demonic Tutor and Mishra´s Workshop burst the power level. The question for me is if the other decks can keep those cards in check. I doubt this at least for Oath and Academy (pls don´t refer to the HLGP Top 8, this is just one big tournament and players choose a deck they are used to play to reach Top8 such as me).

These are strong cards without doubt, but I don't think there is any reason why they should be banned. Creatures are getting better and better with nearly every new set. That these cards burst the power level will not be true for very long (I personly doubt the do right now, they are around the best cards, but there always will be best cards.

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

Worldly Tutor: Either have these CMC 1 tutors allowed alltogether or ban them all (with the exception of the black one maybe). Each archetype profits tremendously from 1 or 2 of them, so why have them not all available / banned for fairness reasonings?  

Either you are missing Worldly Tutor or you just want the green one to be banned. I don't think each card of a cycle needs to be either banned or unbanned for fairness. They all give access to different resources which creates a huge difference in the power level. Otherwise either Ancestral Recall needs to be unbanned or Dark Ritual, Giant Growth, Healing Salve and Lightning Bolt needs to be banned as they are also part of a cycle and give you 3 of one resource.

Regarding the poll:

How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?

9, as there is always something which can be done to improve the format. I'm not sure what it is, but I think this is one of the most enjoyable banned-list since I started playing this format.

How do you rate the highlander mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?

10, after the first shock (I really liked the Spoils mulligan) this is the best thing which happened to this format lately.

How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules) in average

At least once a week.

How often have you played on a HL-GP?

1

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

True-Name Nemesis, this card is so #@!%$* annoying. It's boring to play with and against. It's the random win out of nowhere. Sorry to be so harsh but this card is a perfect example of a well thought but poorly executed card design. It works for multilayer but in a one on one game it's just stupid.

Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

No time to test, sorry.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: cron on 05-01-2014, 10:46:03 PM
Name:
cron / Sascha

How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?
9

Which mulligan-rule do you prefer?
Free mulligan

How do you rate the free mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?
9

How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules)
Only 2-3 times a month

How often have you played on a HL-GP / -Cup?
I played the first 6 HL Grand Prix in a row.
Unfortunately after that our group torn apart and I am not able to make it alone to a HL Grand Prix.

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)
True-Name Nemesis - the card is dominating Legacy

Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)
Entomb - push Combo and Reanimator
Mystical Tutor - push Combo and Control
Natural Order - i think this ban was a little bit hasty and not necessary


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: coldcrow on 08-01-2014, 06:28:20 PM
Name:
coldcrow

How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?
7

Which mulligan-rule do you prefer?
Free mulligan

How do you rate the free mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?
8

How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules)
online almost daily

How often have you played on a HL-GP / -Cup?
none

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)
none

Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)
NO, mind twist, stoneforge, birthing pod, mystical tutor, grindstone, survival


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: coldcrow on 09-01-2014, 05:03:29 AM

Yes if there were more actual Wastelands available in the card pool the problem would not be as severe as playing around these cards would increase your chances of winning. As there are only 1 Wasteland in each deck, you never should mulligan your hand if it was otherwise keepable but loses to Wasteland. On the other hand you should definitely build your deck with the aforementioned hate cards (B2B, moon etc.) in mind and play around those cards. Wasteland is just a card that randomly gets you even if you had the perfect two color manabase but suddenly can't play around it due to inherent random nature of the game. In this format Wasteland is just too close a Strip Mine that it's not fun :(

This represents a whole vein of thinking that compares HL directly to the 4 of formats. It isn't. The 1-of nature will lead to blowouts with a comparatively higher chance than in the regular formats. You have to embrace this, because on the other side of the coin are the bannings. If you get annoyed with seemingly random blowouts (nonbasic hosers, drain on 3 mana spell + followup, academy start etc.) there is no end to the banlist, until you banned all the older cards with a high powerlevel.
If you play too few lands then you will run into the 2 land hands more often than not. But this comes with the trade for more bussiness. But I guess I don't have to tell you this.

If anything there are way too many cards on the banlist. P9 + fast mana belongs there, but not much else, in my opinion.
OR and that is also a viable route: Ban all the high power cards, e.g. academy, oath, drain, demonic, worldly, eladamri, and so on. This will ultimately lead to a meta like goodstuff vs izzet vs rdw vs GU/x. Combo will almost disappear except for creature based ones, but without the tutors it won't be as good as before.

Where do you draw the line between good or bad for the format? Do pricetags come into view aswell?

Edit: I meant blowouts will feel more awkward, cause of the 1-of a kind.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: so_not on 09-01-2014, 01:41:36 PM

Yes if there were more actual Wastelands available in the card pool the problem would not be as severe as playing around these cards would increase your chances of winning. As there are only 1 Wasteland in each deck, you never should mulligan your hand if it was otherwise keepable but loses to Wasteland. On the other hand you should definitely build your deck with the aforementioned hate cards (B2B, moon etc.) in mind and play around those cards. Wasteland is just a card that randomly gets you even if you had the perfect two color manabase but suddenly can't play around it due to inherent random nature of the game. In this format Wasteland is just too close a Strip Mine that it's not fun :(

This represents a whole vein of thinking that compares HL directly to the 4 of formats. It isn't. The 1-of nature will lead to blowouts with a comparatively higher chance than in the regular formats. You have to embrace this, because on the other side of the coin are the bannings. If you get annoyed with seemingly random blowouts (nonbasic hosers, drain on 3 mana spell + followup, academy start etc.) there is no end to the banlist, until you banned all the older cards with a high powerlevel.
If you play too few lands then you will run into the 2 land hands more often than not. But this comes with the trade for more bussiness. But I guess I don't have to tell you this.

If anything there are way too many cards on the banlist. P9 + fast mana belongs there, but not much else, in my opinion.
OR and that is also a viable route: Ban all the high power cards, e.g. academy, oath, drain, demonic, worldly, eladamri, and so on. This will ultimately lead to a meta like goodstuff vs izzet vs rdw vs GU/x. Combo will almost disappear except for creature based ones, but without the tutors it won't be as good as before.

Where do you draw the line between good or bad for the format? Do pricetags come into view aswell?

Edit: I meant blowouts will feel more awkward, cause of the 1-of a kind.

Just to clarify, I have no problem with Moons, B2B or Mana Drain or powerful cards in general. Like I have already stated Wasteland is an autoinclude. Other powerful cards all have spesific conditions under which they work and you can prepare for them. If someone plays a mountain, you should prepare to face non-basic hate. If your opponent plays Island, you should prepare for counter magic in general, Mana Drain being of course the one with most blow out potential. And even then those cards are spells and require mana, those are factors that can be easily disrupted which is not the case with Wasteland.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Demppa on 11-01-2014, 03:24:43 PM
Name/Nick: Henri Särkkä / Demppa

How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?
7

Which mulligan-rule do you prefer?
Free Mulligan

How do you rate the free mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?
9
 
How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules)
several times weekly / once per week

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)
Dark Depths - I don't completely agree with people saying this is way too hard to disrupt, but I do agree it's a one-card combo with Primeval Titan or Knight of the Reliquary and leads to too many "oops, I win" situations.

Demonic Tutor - Many decks splash black just for Deathrite Shaman and Demonic Tutor. Furthermore, Vampiric Tutor is banned. As someone else said, either ban or unban both. I feel that having both banned is the better option.

True-Name Nemesis - Very (too) difficult to have an answer to. Makes a lot of matchups a simple game of who can get one into play.

Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)
Entomb - Heavy graveyard synergy decks haven't been resulting high in tournaments as of late. Giving them a new powerful tool might give room for both existing and new decks.

Mystical Tutor - With the ban of Demonic Tutor the unban of Mystical would be acceptable.

Natural Order - I think the biggest problem with Natural Order was Depths. Would love to see this unbanned again.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Vazdru on 12-01-2014, 09:26:32 PM
results concerning Mulligan

   
   Free Mulligan         33      61,11%   
   Spoils Mulligan         18      33,33%   
   Road to Paris         0      0,00%   
   no vote *         3      5,56%   
   sum         54         
   
* one vote for commander mulligan / one for overdraw +2 / one abstention


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Vazdru on 12-01-2014, 09:28:10 PM
evaluation banned-list / free mulligan

2013
   
   Banned-List                  Free Mulligan               
   10      3      5,56%            8      14,81%   
   9      14      25,93%            10      18,52%   
   8      19      35,19%            11      20,37%   
   7      12      22,22%            9      16,67%   
   6            0,00%            4      7,41%   
   5      2      3,70%            4      7,41%   
   4      2      3,70%            1      1,85%   
   3            0,00%            1      1,85%   
   2            0,00%            1      1,85%   
   1            0,00%            3      5,56%   
   -      2      3,70%            2      3,70%   
         54                  54         

 Average Banned-List: 7,88
Average Mulligan: 7,19
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

2012

                                    
   
   Banned-List                  Mulligan               
   10      4      9,30%            22      51,16%   
   9      17      39,53%            12      27,91%   
   8      14      32,56%            5      11,63%   
   7      5      11,63%                  0,00%   
   6      2      4,65%            2      4,65%   
   5            0,00%                  0,00%   
   4            0,00%                  0,00%   
   3            0,00%            1      2,33%   
   2            0,00%                  0,00%   
   1      1      2,33%            1      2,33%   
   -            0,00%                  0,00%   
         43      100,00%            43      100,00%   
                                 

 Average Banned-List: 8,21
Average Mulligan: 8,93

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

2010
                           
      
                                 
   Banned-List                  Mulligan               
   10      3      6,98%      10      28      65,12%   
   9      17      39,53%      9      1      2,33%   
   8      13      30,23%      8      5      11,63%   
   7      9      20,93%      7      1      2,33%   
   6            0,00%      6      3      6,98%   
   5            0,00%      5      3      6,98%   
   4      1      2,33%      4            0,00%   
   3            0,00%      3      1      2,33%   
   2            0,00%      2            0,00%   
   1            0,00%      1      1      2,33%   
   -            0,00%                     
         43      100,00%            43      100,00%   
                                 
Rating of Banned-Liste 8,23 (7,19 in 2008)
Ratng of Mulligan 8,67 (8,92 in 2008)
                           
                                    
                                    


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Vazdru on 12-01-2014, 09:52:39 PM
54 took part on the evaluation
Nominees for ban / unban   

   Ban:                  Unban:               
   True-Name Nemesis      24      44,44%      Entomb      11      20,37%   
   Oath of Druids      17      31,48%      Mystical Tutor      9      16,67%   
   Mana Drain      13      24,07%      Gifts Ungiven      8      14,81%   
   Tolarian Academy      10      18,52%      Natural Order      7      12,96%   
   Demonic Tutor      9      16,67%      Stoneforge Mystic      5      9,26%   
   Sensei's Divining Top      9      16,67%      Library of Alexandria      5      9,26%   
   Mishra's Workshop      6      11,11%      Umezawa's Jitte      5      9,26%   
   Wasteland      3      5,56%      Vampiric Tutor      4      7,41%   
   Price of Progress      3      5,56%      Imperial Seal      2      3,70%   
   Life from the Loam      3      5,56%      Grindstone      2      3,70%   
   Dark Depths      2      3,70%      Fastbond      2      3,70%   
   Back to Basics      2      3,70%      Birthing Pod      2      3,70%   
   Blood Moon      2      3,70%      Mana Vault      2      3,70%   
   Worldly Tutor      1      1,85%      Mind Twist      1      1,85%   
   Yawgmoth's Will      1      1,85%      Survival of the Fittest      1      1,85%   
   Intuition      1      1,85%      Strip Mine      1      1,85%   
   Deathrite Shaman      1      1,85%      Falling Star      1      1,85%   
   Craterhoof Behemoth      1      1,85%      Sol Ring      1      1,85%   
   Enlightened Tutor      1      1,85%                     
   Fetchlands      1      1,85%                     
   Tarmogoyf      1      1,85%                     
   Sword of the Meek      1      1,85%                     
   Hermit Druid      1      1,85%                     
   Wheel of Fortune      1      1,85%                     
                                 
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

2012

   
   Ban:                  Unban:               
   Birthing Pod      20      46,51%      Life from the Loam      11      25,58%   
   Stoneforge Mystic      13      30,23%      Yawgmoth's Will      9      20,93%   
   Sensei's Divining Top      7      16,28%      Gifts Ungiven      8      18,60%   
   Mana Drain      6      13,95%      Dread Return      8      18,60%   
   Batterskull      4      9,30%      Enlightened Tutor      8      18,60%   
   Mishra's Workshop      4      9,30%      Library of Alexandria      5      11,63%   
   Worldly Tutor      4      9,30%      Mystical Tutor      5      11,63%   
   Jace, the Mind Sculptor      3      6,98%      Lion's Eye Diamond      5      11,63%   
   Demonic Tutor      3      6,98%      Entomb      4      9,30%   
   Aether Vial      2      4,65%      Umezawa's Jitte      3      6,98%   
   Eladamri's Call      2      4,65%      Balance      2      4,65%   
   Intuition      2      4,65%      Sol Ring      1      2,33%   
   Moat      1      2,33%      Survival of the Fittest      1      2,33%   
   Crumbling Sanctuary      1      2,33%      Tinker      1      2,33%   
   Channel      1      2,33%      Strip Mine      1      2,33%   
   Wheel of Fortune      1      2,33%                     
   Wasteland      1      2,33%                     
   Fetchlands      1      2,33%                     
                                 



________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

2010
   

   Ban:                  Unban:               
   Natural Order      11      25,58%      Life from the Loam      11      25,58%   
   Mana Drain      7      16,28%      Trinisphere      9      20,93%   
   Demonic Tutor      6      13,95%      Buried Alive      8      18,60%   
   Mishra's Workshop      5      11,63%      Enlightened Tutor      7      16,28%   
   Oath of Druids      5      11,63%      Yawgmoth's Will      6      13,95%   
   Gifts Ungiven      4      9,30%      Mystical Tutor      5      11,63%   
   Aether Vial      3      6,98%      Entomb      5      11,63%   
   Sensei's Divining Top      3      6,98%      Umezawa's Jitte      4      9,30%   
   Progenitus      2      4,65%      Tolarian Academy      4      9,30%   
   Moat      2      4,65%      Library of Alexandria      4      9,30%   
   Worldly Tutor      2      4,65%      Imperial Seal      4      9,30%   
   Stoneforge Mystic      2      4,65%      Dread Return      3      6,98%   
   Intuition      2      4,65%      Wheel of Fortune      2      4,65%   
   Trygon Predator      1      2,33%      Survival of the Fittest      1      2,33%   
   Onslaught Cycle-Lands      1      2,33%      Strip Mine      1      2,33%   
   Worldgorger Dragon      1      2,33%      Skullclamp      1      2,33%   
   Channel      1      2,33%      Mind Twist      1      2,33%   
   Power Artifact      1      2,33%      All Moxes      1      2,33%   
   Thopter Foundry      1      2,33%                     
   Protean Hulk      1      2,33%                     
   Karakas      1      2,33%                     
   Price of Progress      1      2,33%                     
   Quasli Pridemage      1      2,33%                     
   Shahrazad      1      2,33%                     
   


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: SirGalahad on 17-01-2014, 02:49:19 PM
Even if Vazdru already evaluated the poll, i would like to post my answers anyways.

Name:
SirGalahad // Jonas

How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?
7

Which mulligan-rule do you prefer?
Paris-mulligan or Canadian mulligan

How do you rate the free mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?
7

How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules)
Once a week

How often have you played on a HL-GP / -Cup?
I think i played about 6-7 Gp's.

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)
Mana Drain, Demonic Tutor

Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)
Entomb - Should not be a problem with everybody plaing Deathrite
Natural Order - I don't understand why this card is on the list
Stoneforge Mystic - I never saw a problem in this card
Umezawa's Jitte - I would love to see Jitte on the watchlist so people would test it

Additionally i would like to thank the council and especially Vazdru for the all the work put into this poll and the work put into keeping this format alive und fun to play.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Remi on 31-03-2014, 07:41:05 AM
This is a bit late but here we go:

Name:
Remi

How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?
7

Which mulligan-rule do you prefer?
Free mulligan

How do you rate the free mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?
8

How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules)
Several times a week

How often have you played on a HL-GP / -Cup?
I haven't played on those

Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)
-Mana Drain because it is too powerful, can be "comboed" with any card that requires mana to cast (Cast mana drain on turn 3 to counter opponent's spell and bring your 6 or 7 mana big thing out...)
-True-Name Nemesis because the card was designed for multiplayer and is being unfair in 1v1.
-Sensei's Divining Top because it is too Time Consuming and is played in nearly every deck.


Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)
-Entomb because I dont think this card would be a big problem. It can be only run in limited number of decks and yes, it can be very potent in the right deck, but so can other cards (like the recently unbanned Tolarian Academy). It would also strengthen graveyard-based decks, which are pretty much nonexistent in our current meta except for a few exceptions. I think unbanning this card would provide a possibility for further developing deck diversity.
-Natural Order Should be unbanned because it isn't that strong card as 4 mana sorcery spell that is card disavantage especially when countered.



Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Vazdru on 27-12-2014, 11:48:48 AM
once again

@ HIGHLANDER COMMUNITY

Name/Nick:_________________________________________________________________


Highlander banned-list

•   Ancestral Recall
•   Balance
•   Birthing Pod
•   Black Lotus
•   Chaos Orb
•   Entomb
•   Falling Star
•   Fastbond
•   Flash
•   Gifts Ungiven
•   Grindstone
•   Imperial Seal
•   Library of Alexandria
•   Mana Crypt
•   Mana Vault
•   Mind Twist   
•   Mox Emerald
•   Mox Jet
•   Mox Pearl
•   Mox Ruby
•   Mox Sapphire
•   Natural Order
•   Shahrazad
•   Skullclamp
•   Sol Ring
•   Stoneforge Mystic
•   Strip Mine
•   Survival of the Fittest
•   Time Vault
•   Time Walk
•   Tinker
•   Umezawa's Jitte
•   Vampiric Tutor   
•   Amulet of Quoz
•   Bronze Tablet
•   Contract from Below
•   Darkpact
•   Demonic Attorney
•   Jeweled Bird
•   Rebirth
•   Tempest Efreet
•   Timmerian Fiends



How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?

__________


Which mulligan-rule do you prefer?


   Free Mulligan

   Spoils / Poker Mulligan

   Road to Paris



How do you rate the free mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?

__________


How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules)


   several times weekly

   once per week

   once per month
   
   only tournaments


How often have you played on a HL-GP / -Cup (including this one / no. 14)?

___________



Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________



Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________


Which prices do you like to win on a HL-Cup like this?


   Highlander staples from older sets like Workshop, Tabernacle, Mana Drain, Duals

   Modern staples like Tarmogoyf, Jace TMS, Fetchlands

   Foil cards and/or Judge Promos

   Prices don’t matter as long price payout is fair (good relation between value of price cards
in comparison to expected sum of starting fee)


If you are interested in playing online HL tournaments please check magicplayer.org/forum. A new season of our Highlander Online League (HLL) will be launched soon. Taiga (ex, wb) will be added to price pool.



Thanks for your participance!

Helpful suggestions are welcome!

_____________________________________________________________________________

_____________________________________________________________________________


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Doks on 27-12-2014, 06:18:41 PM
Name/Nick: Marcel / Doks


Highlander banned-list

•   Ancestral Recall
•   Balance
•   Birthing Pod
•   Black Lotus
•   Chaos Orb
•   Entomb
•   Falling Star
•   Fastbond
•   Flash
•   Gifts Ungiven
•   Grindstone
•   Imperial Seal
•   Library of Alexandria
•   Mana Crypt
•   Mana Vault
•   Mind Twist   
•   Mox Emerald
•   Mox Jet
•   Mox Pearl
•   Mox Ruby
•   Mox Sapphire
•   Natural Order
•   Shahrazad
•   Skullclamp
•   Sol Ring
•   Stoneforge Mystic
•   Strip Mine
•   Survival of the Fittest
•   Time Vault
•   Time Walk
•   Tinker
•   Umezawa's Jitte
•   Vampiric Tutor   
•   Amulet of Quoz
•   Bronze Tablet
•   Contract from Below
•   Darkpact
•   Demonic Attorney
•   Jeweled Bird
•   Rebirth
•   Tempest Efreet
•   Timmerian Fiends


How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?

7

Which mulligan-rule do you prefer?

Free Mulligan


How do you rate the free mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?

9


How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules)

once per month


How often have you played on a HL-GP / -Cup (including this one / no. 14)?

3 times


Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

no suggestions


Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

Stoneforge Mystic: Compared to the time when its combo with Batterskull entered the format, I do think that this now fits the powerlevel which is acceptable for our format. Both control and creature based strategies can profit from it and as long as Umezawa's Jitte stays banned, I believe it's still ok.

Entomb: In theory, this allows for some broken starts which might show up in a while. On the other hand, building your deck around a potential Turn 2 play that most likely will win you the game, prevents you from following a more reliable and consistent strategy, which might make the card 'fair' (there's surely some testing needed). On a sidenote: This makes black a much more attractive colour.


Which prices do you like to win on a HL-Cup like this?

Highlander staples from older sets like Workshop, Tabernacle, Mana Drain, Duals since these usually cost a lot more than the also needed newer staples.

Helpful suggestions are welcome!

I am pretty satisfied with how the current format works out, the council members are doing a nice job in my opinion.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Thibir on 29-12-2014, 01:00:31 PM


Name/Nick: Thibir/Tibor


Highlander banned-list


How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?

8


Which mulligan-rule do you prefer?

   Spoils / Poker Mulligan




How do you rate the free mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?

7


How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules)


   once per week

   
How often have you played on a HL-GP / -Cup (including this one / no. 14)?

once


Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

Demonic tutor - for the sake of consistency either ban Demonic or unban Vampiric. I don´t care which but I think that both should be treated equally.


Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

Vampiric tutor - for the sake of consistency either ban Demonic or unban Vampiric. I don´t care which but I think that both should be treated equally.

Entomb - this card can lead to some broken plays, but I think that reanimator is not currently a competitive deck so it needs some boost.

Gifts Ungiven - not 100% sure about unbanning I just would love to see this card played again.

Stoneforge Mystic - I didn´t agree with its ban in the first place. 2nd turn mystic into 3rd turn batterskull doesn´t seem that intimidating.

 
Which prices do you like to win on a HL-Cup like this?


   Prices don’t matter as long price payout is fair (good relation between value of price cards
in comparison to expected sum of starting fee)



Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: carte_blanche on 01-01-2015, 04:41:53 PM
Name/Nick: carte_blanche

How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?

7


Which mulligan-rule do you prefer? 

Free Mulligan


How do you rate the free mulligan on a scale from 1 to 10?

8


How often do you play Highlander (mp.org-rules)

once per month



How often have you played on a HL-GP / -Cup (including this one / no. 14)?

never



Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

Mystical Tutor – instant speed tutoring for merely one mana is the reason that makes the card overpowered in my opinion. The opponent just has not enough time to react – no time at all if played correctly.



Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

Gifts Ungiven – four mana tutor is not too critical imho.



Which prices do you like to win on a HL-Cup like this?


Highlander staples from older sets like Workshop, Tabernacle, Mana Drain, Duals
&
Prices don’t matter as long price payout is fair (good relation between value of price cards in comparison to expected sum of starting fee)


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Vazdru on 21-02-2015, 07:49:02 PM
evaluation banned-list / free mulligan

2014
   
   Banned-List                  Free Mulligan               
   10      1      3,03%            6      18,18%   
   9      5      15,15%            9      27,27%   
   8      16      48,48%            8      24,24%   
   7      8      24,24%            8      24,24%   
   6            0,00%            1      3,03%   
   5      2      6,06%            1      3,03%   
   4            0,00%                  0,00%   
   3            0,00%                  0,00%   
   2            0,00%                  0,00%   
   1            0,00%                  0,00%   
   -      1      3,03%                  0,00%   
         33                  33         
                                 

 Average Banned-List: 7,78
Average Mulligan: 8,24

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

2013
   
   Banned-List                  Free Mulligan               
   10      3      5,56%            8      14,81%   
   9      14      25,93%            10      18,52%   
   8      19      35,19%            11      20,37%   
   7      12      22,22%            9      16,67%   
   6            0,00%            4      7,41%   
   5      2      3,70%            4      7,41%   
   4      2      3,70%            1      1,85%   
   3            0,00%            1      1,85%   
   2            0,00%            1      1,85%   
   1            0,00%            3      5,56%   
   -      2      3,70%            2      3,70%   
         54                  54         

 Average Banned-List: 7,88
Average Mulligan: 7,19
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

2012

                                    
   
   Banned-List                  Mulligan               
   10      4      9,30%            22      51,16%   
   9      17      39,53%            12      27,91%   
   8      14      32,56%            5      11,63%   
   7      5      11,63%                  0,00%   
   6      2      4,65%            2      4,65%   
   5            0,00%                  0,00%   
   4            0,00%                  0,00%   
   3            0,00%            1      2,33%   
   2            0,00%                  0,00%   
   1      1      2,33%            1      2,33%   
   -            0,00%                  0,00%   
         43      100,00%            43      100,00%   
                                 

 Average Banned-List: 8,21
Average Mulligan: 8,93

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

2010
                           
      
                                 
   Banned-List                  Mulligan               
   10      3      6,98%      10      28      65,12%   
   9      17      39,53%      9      1      2,33%   
   8      13      30,23%      8      5      11,63%   
   7      9      20,93%      7      1      2,33%   
   6            0,00%      6      3      6,98%   
   5            0,00%      5      3      6,98%   
   4      1      2,33%      4            0,00%   
   3            0,00%      3      1      2,33%   
   2            0,00%      2            0,00%   
   1            0,00%      1      1      2,33%   
   -            0,00%                     
         43      100,00%            43      100,00%   
                                 
Rating of Banned-Liste 8,23 (7,19 in 2008)
Ratng of Mulligan 8,67 (8,92 in 2008)                     


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Vazdru on 21-02-2015, 07:58:03 PM
33 took part on the evaluation
Nominees for ban / unban   

   
   Ban:                  Unban:               
   Mystical Tutor      11      33,33%      Stoneforge Mystic      6      18,18%   
   Mana Drain      10      30,30%      Entomb      5      15,15%   
   Oath of Druids      9      27,27%      Natural Order      5      15,15%   
   Demonic Tutor      9      27,27%      Fastbond      5      15,15%   
   True-Name Nemesis      5      15,15%      Umezawa's Jitte      4      12,12%   
   Price of Progress      5      15,15%      Gifts Ungiven      2      6,06%   
   Sensei's Divining Top      4      12,12%      Vampiric Tutor      2      6,06%   
   Tolarian Academy      1      3,03%      Survival of the Fittest      2      6,06%   
   Mishra's Workshop      1      3,03%      Library of Alexandria      1      3,03%   
   Helm of Obedience      1      3,03%      Imperial Seal      1      3,03%   
   Blood Moon      1      3,03%      Birthing Pod      1      3,03%   
   Yawgmoth's Will      1      3,03%                     
   Worldly Tutor      1      3,03%                     
   Enlightened Tutor      1      3,03%                     
   Fetchlands      1      3,03%                     
   Tarmogoyf      1      3,03%                     
   Sword of the Meek      1      3,03%                     
   Tabernacle       1      3,03%                     
   
                                 

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

2013

   Ban:                  Unban:               
   True-Name Nemesis      24      44,44%      Entomb      11      20,37%   
   Oath of Druids      17      31,48%      Mystical Tutor      9      16,67%   
   Mana Drain      13      24,07%      Gifts Ungiven      8      14,81%   
   Tolarian Academy      10      18,52%      Natural Order      7      12,96%   
   Demonic Tutor      9      16,67%      Stoneforge Mystic      5      9,26%   
   Sensei's Divining Top      9      16,67%      Library of Alexandria      5      9,26%   
   Mishra's Workshop      6      11,11%      Umezawa's Jitte      5      9,26%   
   Wasteland      3      5,56%      Vampiric Tutor      4      7,41%   
   Price of Progress      3      5,56%      Imperial Seal      2      3,70%   
   Life from the Loam      3      5,56%      Grindstone      2      3,70%   
   Dark Depths      2      3,70%      Fastbond      2      3,70%   
   Back to Basics      2      3,70%      Birthing Pod      2      3,70%   
   Blood Moon      2      3,70%      Mana Vault      2      3,70%   
   Worldly Tutor      1      1,85%      Mind Twist      1      1,85%   
   Yawgmoth's Will      1      1,85%      Survival of the Fittest      1      1,85%   
   Intuition      1      1,85%      Strip Mine      1      1,85%   
   Deathrite Shaman      1      1,85%      Falling Star      1      1,85%   
   Craterhoof Behemoth      1      1,85%      Sol Ring      1      1,85%   
   Enlightened Tutor      1      1,85%                     
   Fetchlands      1      1,85%                     
   Tarmogoyf      1      1,85%                     
   Sword of the Meek      1      1,85%                     
   Hermit Druid      1      1,85%                     
   Wheel of Fortune      1      1,85%                     
                                 
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

2012

   
   Ban:                  Unban:               
   Birthing Pod      20      46,51%      Life from the Loam      11      25,58%   
   Stoneforge Mystic      13      30,23%      Yawgmoth's Will      9      20,93%   
   Sensei's Divining Top      7      16,28%      Gifts Ungiven      8      18,60%   
   Mana Drain      6      13,95%      Dread Return      8      18,60%   
   Batterskull      4      9,30%      Enlightened Tutor      8      18,60%   
   Mishra's Workshop      4      9,30%      Library of Alexandria      5      11,63%   
   Worldly Tutor      4      9,30%      Mystical Tutor      5      11,63%   
   Jace, the Mind Sculptor      3      6,98%      Lion's Eye Diamond      5      11,63%   
   Demonic Tutor      3      6,98%      Entomb      4      9,30%   
   Aether Vial      2      4,65%      Umezawa's Jitte      3      6,98%   
   Eladamri's Call      2      4,65%      Balance      2      4,65%   
   Intuition      2      4,65%      Sol Ring      1      2,33%   
   Moat      1      2,33%      Survival of the Fittest      1      2,33%   
   Crumbling Sanctuary      1      2,33%      Tinker      1      2,33%   
   Channel      1      2,33%      Strip Mine      1      2,33%   
   Wheel of Fortune      1      2,33%                     
   Wasteland      1      2,33%                     
   Fetchlands      1      2,33%                     
                                 



________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

2010
   

   Ban:                  Unban:               
   Natural Order      11      25,58%      Life from the Loam      11      25,58%   
   Mana Drain      7      16,28%      Trinisphere      9      20,93%   
   Demonic Tutor      6      13,95%      Buried Alive      8      18,60%   
   Mishra's Workshop      5      11,63%      Enlightened Tutor      7      16,28%   
   Oath of Druids      5      11,63%      Yawgmoth's Will      6      13,95%   
   Gifts Ungiven      4      9,30%      Mystical Tutor      5      11,63%   
   Aether Vial      3      6,98%      Entomb      5      11,63%   
   Sensei's Divining Top      3      6,98%      Umezawa's Jitte      4      9,30%   
   Progenitus      2      4,65%      Tolarian Academy      4      9,30%   
   Moat      2      4,65%      Library of Alexandria      4      9,30%   
   Worldly Tutor      2      4,65%      Imperial Seal      4      9,30%   
   Stoneforge Mystic      2      4,65%      Dread Return      3      6,98%   
   Intuition      2      4,65%      Wheel of Fortune      2      4,65%   
   Trygon Predator      1      2,33%      Survival of the Fittest      1      2,33%   
   Onslaught Cycle-Lands      1      2,33%      Strip Mine      1      2,33%   
   Worldgorger Dragon      1      2,33%      Skullclamp      1      2,33%   
   Channel      1      2,33%      Mind Twist      1      2,33%   
   Power Artifact      1      2,33%      All Moxes      1      2,33%   
   Thopter Foundry      1      2,33%                     
   Protean Hulk      1      2,33%                     
   Karakas      1      2,33%                     
   Price of Progress      1      2,33%                     
   Quasli Pridemage      1      2,33%                     
   Shahrazad      1      2,33%                     
   


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Vazdru on 19-12-2015, 11:30:21 AM
Once again I would like to make a small, non-representative evaluation to current Banned- / Watchlist at next Cup.
Feel free to take part and use the online form.


@ HIGHLANDER COMMUNITY

Name/Nick:_________________________________________________________________


Highlander banned-list

  • Ancestral Recall
  • Balance
  • Birthing Pod
  • Black Lotus
  • Chaos Orb
  • Entomb
  • Falling Star
  • Flash
  • Gifts Ungiven
  • Grindstone
  • Imperial Seal
  • Library of Alexandria
  • Mana Crypt
  • Mana Vault
  • Mind Twist
  • Mox Emerald
  • Mox Jet
  • Mox Pearl
  • Mox Ruby
  • Mox Sapphire
  • Shahrazad
  • Skullclamp
  • Sol Ring
  • Stoneforge Mystic
  • Strip Mine
  • Survival of the Fittest
  • Time Vault
  • Time Walk
  • Tinker
  • Umezawa's Jitte
  • Vampiric Tutor


How do you rate the banned-list on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?

__________


How do you rate the current Mulligan rule on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)? Why?

__________   Free-Mulligan with Vancouver option

_________________________________
_________________________________
_________________________________


Where are you from?


_________________________________


How often do you play Highlander (highlandermagic.info-rules)


___   several times weekly

___   once per week

___   once per month
  
___   only tournaments


How often have you played on a HL-GP / -Cup (including this one / no. 16)?

___________



Which cards are missing on the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________



Which cards should be deleted from the banned-list and why? (max. the 5 most important ones)

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________


Which prices do you like to win on a HL-Cup like this?


____ Strong and expensive Highlander cards like Workshop, Tabernacle, Mana Drain, Duals
____ Strong and expensive cards, which I can also use in the format ___________ like Snapcaster Mage, Tarmogoyf, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, Fetchlands.
____ Vouchers for JK-Store
____ Prices don’t matter as long price payout is fair (good relation between value of price cards in comparison to expected sum of starting fee)


Thanks for your participance!

Helpful suggestions are welcome!

_____________________________________________________________________________

_____________________________________________________________________________


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Vazdru on 04-01-2016, 03:54:22 PM
I received 33 answers yet.
If you haven't taken part so far, feel free to post your ideas!
The results will be published soon.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Vazdru on 16-01-2016, 11:16:32 PM
thanks to the 37 who took part on this small evaluation
here are the results:

average banned-list: 7,59 (results past years: 7,78 in 2014 / 7,88 in 2013)  
average mulligan: 8,56 (results past years: 8,24 in 2014 / 7,19 in 2013)
(1 = poor / 10 = great)

   
   Banned-List                  Current Mulligan               
   10      1      2,70%            11      29,73%   
   9      7      18,92%            12      32,43%   
   8      16      43,24%            9      24,32%   
   7      8      21,62%            2      5,41%   
   6      2      5,41%                  0,00%   
   5      1      2,70%                  0,00%   
   4      1      2,70%            1      2,70%   
   3      1      2,70%            1      2,70%   
   2            0,00%            1      2,70%   
   1            0,00%                  0,00%   
   -            0,00%                  0,00%   
         37                  37         
                                 


   
   Ban:                  Unban:               
   Natural Order      12      32,43%      Stoneforge Mystic      6      16,22%   
   Sensei's Divining Top      12      32,43%      Gifts Ungiven      6      16,22%   
   Mana Drain      10      27,03%      Entomb      3      8,11%   
   Demonic Tutor      9      24,32%      Library of Alexandria      3      8,11%   
   Mystical Tutor      7      18,92%      Umezawa's Jitte      2      5,41%   
   True-Name Nemesis      6      16,22%      Survival of the Fittest      2      5,41%   
   Dig Through Time      2      5,41%      Imperial Seal      2      5,41%   
   Price of Progress      2      5,41%      Birthing Pod      2      5,41%   
   Tolarian Academy      2      5,41%      Grindstone      1      2,70%   
   Yawgmoth's Will      2      5,41%      Balance      1      2,70%   
   Blood Moon      1      2,70%                  
   Fetchlands      1      2,70%                     
   Gaddock Teeg      1      2,70%                     
   Intuition      1      2,70%                     
   Mishra's Workshop      1      2,70%                     
   Tarmogoyf      1      2,70%                     
   Treasure Cruise      1      2,70%                     
   Wasteland      1      2,70%                     
   
               

some random facts:

* noone mentioned Oath of Druids as ban-candidate  :o ??? but Gaddock Teeg got one
* Sensei's Diving Top is on the top spot of ban candidates (together with Natural Order), mostly the time-factor was mentioned as main-reason. In fact there were many many draws in the last GP.
* Mana Drain and Demonic Tutor got exactly the same total numbers as a year before (probably same persons  ;))
* Mana Drain stays on top spots as community choice for quite a while now (27% / 30% / 24% / 14% in the last 4 years)
* Entomb, Stoneforge Mystic and Gifts Ungiven are named most often as unban candidates in the last three years (I will vote for adding them to unban-watchlist next time - promised!  :))
* Gaddock Teeg got its place as one-time-call in the history among Quasli Pridemage, Craterhoof Behemoth and others  ;)
* Workshop seems fine for you as it got only 2 nominees in the last 2 years (same person), same is true for Fetchlands and Tarmogoyf ?!  :P
* True-Name-Nemesis stays in the categorie 10-25%-nominee (blue ones) for a while now, maybe I should relaunch my fight against this card - at least I could have some "comrades-in-arms" (to be honest I already accustomed to that little bug ::))


________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

2014   

   
   Ban:                  Unban:               
   Mystical Tutor      11      33,33%      Stoneforge Mystic      6      18,18%   
   Mana Drain      10      30,30%      Entomb      5      15,15%   
   Oath of Druids      9      27,27%      Natural Order      5      15,15%   
   Demonic Tutor      9      27,27%      Fastbond      5      15,15%   
   True-Name Nemesis      5      15,15%      Umezawa's Jitte      4      12,12%   
   Price of Progress      5      15,15%      Gifts Ungiven      2      6,06%   
   Sensei's Divining Top      4      12,12%      Vampiric Tutor      2      6,06%   
   Tolarian Academy      1      3,03%      Survival of the Fittest      2      6,06%   
   Mishra's Workshop      1      3,03%      Library of Alexandria      1      3,03%   
   Helm of Obedience      1      3,03%      Imperial Seal      1      3,03%   
   Blood Moon      1      3,03%      Birthing Pod      1      3,03%   
   Yawgmoth's Will      1      3,03%                     
   Worldly Tutor      1      3,03%                     
   Enlightened Tutor      1      3,03%                     
   Fetchlands      1      3,03%                     
   Tarmogoyf      1      3,03%                     
   Sword of the Meek      1      3,03%                     
   Tabernacle       1      3,03%                     
   
                                 

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

2013

   Ban:                  Unban:               
   True-Name Nemesis      24      44,44%      Entomb      11      20,37%   
   Oath of Druids      17      31,48%      Mystical Tutor      9      16,67%   
   Mana Drain      13      24,07%      Gifts Ungiven      8      14,81%   
   Tolarian Academy      10      18,52%      Natural Order      7      12,96%   
   Demonic Tutor      9      16,67%      Stoneforge Mystic      5      9,26%   
   Sensei's Divining Top      9      16,67%      Library of Alexandria      5      9,26%   
   Mishra's Workshop      6      11,11%      Umezawa's Jitte      5      9,26%   
   Wasteland      3      5,56%      Vampiric Tutor      4      7,41%   
   Price of Progress      3      5,56%      Imperial Seal      2      3,70%   
   Life from the Loam      3      5,56%      Grindstone      2      3,70%   
   Dark Depths      2      3,70%      Fastbond      2      3,70%   
   Back to Basics      2      3,70%      Birthing Pod      2      3,70%   
   Blood Moon      2      3,70%      Mana Vault      2      3,70%   
   Worldly Tutor      1      1,85%      Mind Twist      1      1,85%   
   Yawgmoth's Will      1      1,85%      Survival of the Fittest      1      1,85%   
   Intuition      1      1,85%      Strip Mine      1      1,85%   
   Deathrite Shaman      1      1,85%      Falling Star      1      1,85%   
   Craterhoof Behemoth      1      1,85%      Sol Ring      1      1,85%   
   Enlightened Tutor      1      1,85%                     
   Fetchlands      1      1,85%                     
   Tarmogoyf      1      1,85%                     
   Sword of the Meek      1      1,85%                     
   Hermit Druid      1      1,85%                     
   Wheel of Fortune      1      1,85%                     
                                 
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

2012

   
   Ban:                  Unban:               
   Birthing Pod      20      46,51%      Life from the Loam      11      25,58%   
   Stoneforge Mystic      13      30,23%      Yawgmoth's Will      9      20,93%   
   Sensei's Divining Top      7      16,28%      Gifts Ungiven      8      18,60%   
   Mana Drain      6      13,95%      Dread Return      8      18,60%   
   Batterskull      4      9,30%      Enlightened Tutor      8      18,60%   
   Mishra's Workshop      4      9,30%      Library of Alexandria      5      11,63%   
   Worldly Tutor      4      9,30%      Mystical Tutor      5      11,63%   
   Jace, the Mind Sculptor      3      6,98%      Lion's Eye Diamond      5      11,63%   
   Demonic Tutor      3      6,98%      Entomb      4      9,30%   
   Aether Vial      2      4,65%      Umezawa's Jitte      3      6,98%   
   Eladamri's Call      2      4,65%      Balance      2      4,65%   
   Intuition      2      4,65%      Sol Ring      1      2,33%   
   Moat      1      2,33%      Survival of the Fittest      1      2,33%   
   Crumbling Sanctuary      1      2,33%      Tinker      1      2,33%   
   Channel      1      2,33%      Strip Mine      1      2,33%   
   Wheel of Fortune      1      2,33%                     
   Wasteland      1      2,33%                     
   Fetchlands      1      2,33%                     
                                 



________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

2010
   

   Ban:                  Unban:               
   Natural Order      11      25,58%      Life from the Loam      11      25,58%   
   Mana Drain      7      16,28%      Trinisphere      9      20,93%   
   Demonic Tutor      6      13,95%      Buried Alive      8      18,60%   
   Mishra's Workshop      5      11,63%      Enlightened Tutor      7      16,28%   
   Oath of Druids      5      11,63%      Yawgmoth's Will      6      13,95%   
   Gifts Ungiven      4      9,30%      Mystical Tutor      5      11,63%   
   Aether Vial      3      6,98%      Entomb      5      11,63%   
   Sensei's Divining Top      3      6,98%      Umezawa's Jitte      4      9,30%   
   Progenitus      2      4,65%      Tolarian Academy      4      9,30%   
   Moat      2      4,65%      Library of Alexandria      4      9,30%   
   Worldly Tutor      2      4,65%      Imperial Seal      4      9,30%   
   Stoneforge Mystic      2      4,65%      Dread Return      3      6,98%   
   Intuition      2      4,65%      Wheel of Fortune      2      4,65%   
   Trygon Predator      1      2,33%      Survival of the Fittest      1      2,33%   
   Onslaught Cycle-Lands      1      2,33%      Strip Mine      1      2,33%   
   Worldgorger Dragon      1      2,33%      Skullclamp      1      2,33%   
   Channel      1      2,33%      Mind Twist      1      2,33%   
   Power Artifact      1      2,33%      All Moxes      1      2,33%   
   Thopter Foundry      1      2,33%                     
   Protean Hulk      1      2,33%                     
   Karakas      1      2,33%                     
   Price of Progress      1      2,33%                     
   Quasli Pridemage      1      2,33%                     
   Shahrazad      1      2,33%                     
   


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Dr. Opossum on 02-03-2016, 01:14:38 AM
Also at the MGM we hand out a survey. We like to thank all participants for their feedback and their helpful words! The results from this survey as well as the one from Maintal will definitely be considered in our next decisions and discussion, although we cannot promise to comply each wish.

Of course the survey is downloadable as well:

http://imgur.com/yyDNm6T


I orientated on Vazdrus structure for the analysis.

Average banned list:6,42 (result Maintal: 7,59)
Average mulligan: 8,40 (result Maintal: 8,56)
(1 = poor, 10 great)


Banned list                      Mulligan      
10   0      10   10   
9   2      9   4   
8   5      8   1   
7   5      7   2   
6   1      6   0   
5   2      5   1   
4   1      4   1   
3   3      3   0   
2   0      2   0   
1   0      1   1   
no voting   3      no voting   2   
   2222   



Ban            Unban         
Fastbond   9   40.91%      Stoneforge Mystic   10   45.45%   
Tolarian Academy   8   36.36%      Entomb   6   27.27%   
Demonic Tutor   5   22.73%      Gifts Ungiven   6   27.27%   
Mana Drain   4   18.18%      Imperial Seal   2   9.09%   
Oath of Druids   3   13.64%      Birthing Pod   1   4.55%   
Mystical Tutor   3   13.64%      Chaos Orb   1   4.55%   
Sensei's Divining Top   2   9.09%      Grindstone   1   4.55%   
Yawgmoth's will   2   9.09%      Umezawa's Jitte   1   4.55%   
Natural Order   2   9.09%      Library of Alexandria    1   4.55%   
Ban the Reserved List   1   4.55%      Mind Twist   1   4.55%   
Tainted Pact   1   4.55%      Vampiric Tutor   1   4.55%   
True-Name Nemesis   14.55%   


- 22 participants filled out the survey (MGM players and visitors)
- from 22 participants only 19 rated the Banned List and 20 rated the Mulligan
- Berlin and surrounding is clearly more unsatisfied with the current Banned List than the visitors at Maintal
- overall the Mulligan is described as very positive and fair
- Fastbond got the most votes and shows a big contrast to the results in Maintal (no votes)
- followed closely by Tolarian Academy (MGM: 8 vs Cup: 2) -> fast mana is seen much more problematic in Berlin and surrounding
- Sensei’s Divining Top in opposite to Maintal only got a few votes
- opinions on Stonefore Mystic were confirmed -> most stated unban candidate


Most stated reasons for single cards (ban):

Fastbond -> fast mana, no interaction
Tolarian Academy -> fast mana, no interaction
Demonic Tutor -> best card in the format
Mana Drain -> Counterspell + Ramp
Oath of Druids -> presence in nearly each Combo list, One-Card-Combo
Mystical Tutor -> finds relevant tutors, 1-Mana-Tutor
Sensei’s Divining Top -> time
Yawgmoth’s Will -> too strong, boring
Natural Order -> one sided
Tainted Pact -> Instant Demonic Tutor
True-Name Nemesis -> too strong


Most stated reason for the single cards (unban):

Stoneforge Mystic -> fair, weakest card on the Banned list
Entomb -> boost Combo and Control
Gifts Ungiven -> fair tutor
Imperial Seal -> fair/ “bad” tutor
Birthing Pod ->
Chaos Orb ->
Gindstone -> Combo with Painter's Servant too vulnerable
Umezawa’s Jitte -> only interesting for Aggro and Midrange
Library of Alexandria -> “only” a Non-Basic
Mind Twist -> too expensive
Vampiric Tutor -> fair tutor


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: TobiR on 04-03-2016, 06:06:38 PM
Regarding the tolarian academy/Fastbond votes, I have some questions. I'd really, really like to get some of the Berlin Players to answer me. I Don't mean any harm, I'm just curious, because the problem doesn't exist in Frankfurt.

Why are these cards such a nuisance to you? I read that you think they are not very interactive, but it seems to me (from an outsiders position I remind you) that you don't face them that often and decks using these cards are not dominant even in your area. Before you burn me alive, please here me out.

I personally would ban Treasure Cruise if I had the power to do so. I hate the card because it made it impossible for non blue decks to outvalue blue decks. Even if you maneuver your deck in a way that sees you making a lot of favorable trades, when your opponent suddenly goes sorcery speed ancestral recall you're almost always going to be facing an uphill battle again. What rubs me the wrong way is that every blue deck has to play that card. It is just too strong. In our testing for the GP it was a pretty safe bet that in a match of blue deck vs blue deck the dude with the resolved treasure cruise would win (just look at the metagame masters top8; 6 blue decks, 5 playing treasure cruise, the exception being the fastbond deck).

This detour brings me to the cards suggested for the ban: Fastbond and Academy. As far as I can tell (http://www.magicplayer.org/forum/index.php?topic=1182.0) 4 people played an artifact combo deck involving the two named cards at the metagme masters in Berlin.
They finished in places 5, 22, 35 and 39. That's not very dominant. I mean either the deck is not very consistent or it is so hard to play that it denies most pilots easy wins. If the cards had placed a high percentage of the people playing in the top 8 or even near it...ok, but this way, I don't even know if the 4 decks combine for a winning record. 4 Decks out of 45 is also not that much.

I played against the 5c Academy combo deck at the highlander GP (don't remember the guy's name anymore) and the games were ok. He comboed me out the first game, i was too fast the second one and in the third he won by casting armageddon (which was the only time I felt it wasn't fair). Apart from that, it wasn't any different than all the other combo decks. Combo decks are doing unfair things. That's their nature. This is why they are build.

So please be gentle with me and explain to me, why you want these cards banned so badly. Why are the academy/fastbond decks worse than other combo decks like scapeshift (2 out of 2 in top 8!!!) or TPS (9th, 11th played by 2 people) which had much better records at the metagame masters and are doing unfair things (fast mana) as well?


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: tonytahiti on 05-03-2016, 02:35:18 PM
@tobir

Same as you, i don't mean any harm - but there seems to be a very limited understanding of this deck, the cards in it, what tournament results of this size (tiny tiny size) really mean and what the difference is to other combo decks.

Paul Templin in Berlin has a Win Percentage that is about 82-83% (thats a guess, a generous one even, it might be higher) and at the recent MGM5 he went 9-3 in Games (75% win percentage, thats still very high, eventhough low for this freakin insane standards). It is important that we focus on this Man, this Man named Paul Templin since he invented the deck, tuned it to insane heights, is the most skillfull with it and, maybe most importantly, knows how to mulligan with this deck - he mulligans aggressively. To make it short: Paul Templin is a completely different animal with this deck! Now you say "so its the player?" It is not the player, it is the deck, that gets flawlessly by this certain player. Like Blood gets played pretty flawlessly by about 10 People in Germany, this deck gets played flawlessly by one. Thats important to realize.

It is absurd how often I hear "it did not win a big tournament, it is a local phenomen!". First of all, there arent big tournaments in this dwarf format. Top8 at MGM is NOTHING ELSE than 4-0 at your local tiny shop 4 round fnm, since you 4-0 the first rounds at MGM and then double draw. So "2 Scapeshift decks made top8 at this recent wow so big tournament" is nothing else "wow scapeshift won fnm!". Real Format Grand Prix is about 15 rounds + 3 more rounds. Highlander is going 4-0 and then "getting lucky" and "playing well" to lift that mgm trophy. That is such small data! I give you some more viable data: Paul Templin has won 7 of 10 Fnms here in Berlin. Thats alot of matches on alot of days, vs alot of decks. And i do not want to sound arrogant, but winning a FNM in Berlin (going 4-0) i rate higher than making top 8 at a MGM (which is basically the same record) since here the competitivness is pretty unreal, since everybody tries to win vs this deck and tuning vs this deck ( a deck this dominant drives people to update and to tune and to improve).

Now we had a fnm yesterday- 12 People, all very willing to beat this monster, all very motivated. Guess who won? Paul Templin won with Artifacts. I consider myself a strong player with a deep understanding for the format and i felt i cruised through the field at the MGM - my only loss was to Paul Templin and then in the Semis to RDW (which is very hard for grixis, since i dont clock hard enough have literally zero lifegain and, often cant secure the 2-for-1 early game that i need to actually gain headway). Anyways, yesterday i played vs Paul Round 1. I win the dice roll and play land. He plays mishras workshop into double talisman into senseis divining top. You know what? From this spot, it is INCREDIBLY HARD for me to win this game of magic. And i dont win -  with the amount of mana he generates he has an insane of topdecks that I NEED TO COUNTER to not lose on the spot (time spiral, wheel, will, wargate, rings, staff, + about 10 other spells). And thats not his best draw, by far not, game two he goes fastbond turn 1 into 4 lands turn 1 into those rings of tralala. Turn 2 he plays memory jar cracks it gets academy and finds lands and ressources /tutors to infinite combo me Turn 2. And now the real problem: The cards that make this deck so busted are SUPER HARD TO INTERACT with. The academy that comes off the top or gets tutored out in response to my clique with crop rotation (and silly me thinks clique is good vs him, it is etc..but this deck operates on a different level) can not be interacted with. It WILL CREATE those 5-6 mana, sometimes 43-44 (untap academy twice etc, i saw him generate about 50 mana with it yesterday vs scapeshift) and there is NOTHING YOU CAN DO. Of course you can spreading seas it in your turn or sinkhole it (which are not winning lines, believe me i know), or waste it..but it will create absurd amounts of mana when it enters the battlefield. Academy is a freakin Land and sometimes i feel like i have to explain to people that you can not counter a land, or cannot make him discard it. Academy is a broken magic the gathering card, it is. And fastbond is too. And that is because BOTH CREATE FAST MANA, fast mana is the enemy of this game we love since it breaks a fundamental rule -  one land per turn, one mana one land, fair silly magic. SAme with fastbond, what are you gonna do vs 1 one mana enchantment turn 1 on the draw? Misstep or force of course. So i got 2 Cards in the format that stop it. How many cards stop that turn 5 scapeshift? Infinite counters, discards spells mindcensor etc..so i am not sure how you can ever compare those cards to scapeshift. Its baffling to me how this comparison is made. Everything about the discussion is baffling to me.

We have a real problem. We do. And i dont care about "local phenomenon", I really dont. It is real, it is happening. Paul Templin broke this format way harder than Caw Blade or Summer Bloom broke their formats, way way harder, so hard it hurts my soul sometimes. Summer bloom got banned in modern, did it win many grand prixs? it didnt. But wizards realized it is super degenerate and creates a format that is WARPED around this deck and that forces people to play cards to beat it but are totally crap vs other decks. Wizards does not say "it didnt win a big tournament in the last month, everything is fine" they are smarter than that! And they dont even take those 2000people grand prix as only indicator, while some people in this format take 50 and 100people tournaments as indicator? REALLY?



Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Nevinyrral on 05-03-2016, 05:00:53 PM
@TobiR:
At first: The most important sentence from my previous speaker you should take with you is: “Paul Templin is the most skillfull with this deck.”. However, that’s primary because he designed the deck and Paul overall performs very well. Already with Mono Red Paul regularly came to the top of the standings. To what extent the 82-83% (which were admittedly calculated with a lot of gut feeling) are justified by the Deck or the player, I leave to the imagination of the reader.

I also was one of the FNM players yesterday and there was a heated debate about this topic. Because even in Berlin not everyone of us find the deck as excessively strong. Some fun facts:
On the MGM#4 Paul only reached place 24 of 45.
The first place yesterday was determined by the third Tiebreaker (together with Scapeshift, which in contrast to Artifact Combo Control only occurred 2 times in MGM 5 and had a Top 8 presence of 2 decks).
The scenario with 50 Mana against Scapeshift developed in the late game (ca. turn 12). To be fair it should be mentioned that the deck is able to produce indefinite Mana on turn 2. However, this is dependent on many factors and is by far not the rule.

The reason, why my previous speaker hears so often, that this is a local phenomenon, is in the first case that it is a local phenomenon. Fact is that the deck is only played in Berlin on a regular base. Therefore you will find no arguments above against this fact, but only a “And I dont care about “local phenomenon”, I really dont.”.
Assuredly you have noticed, Tobi, that the deck presence of the most powerful deck in the world even in Berlin is very low. Indeed 3 other persons tried to play the deck on the MGM (place 22, 35 and 39 out of 52), however you will again only find Paul in the final standings with this deck this week. Also concerning the question why don’t play more people Artifact Combo-Control, our detractors only react with lack of understanding. The answer “It doesn’t make fun. I only play what is fun for me.”, you may also find unsatisfying like half of the FNM players yesterday. Also additional answers don’t want to be integrated in the deck, because they are “dead” against other decks. Of course this conflicts with the wish to play the own Pet deck. ;)

You see, we have to differentiate here. Tonytahiti is maybe right with the point to not only use data from the bigger events. But he doesn’t speak for the whole Berlin.

Regards!


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Vazdru on 05-03-2016, 06:59:56 PM
just a side-note:
Paul is playing his deck in the current online league as well, like already in the last one:

2:0 vs G(r)-Devotion (Iulus)
2:0 vs RDW (dsck)
1:2 vs Izzet (Tazi)
1:2 vs Esper (Payron)
2:1 vs Reanimator (K0d013e4st)
0:2 vs RDW (r4nd0m)

total record: 8:7




Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: TobiR on 05-03-2016, 07:33:45 PM
Hey, thank you both for the fast answers. Before I start with my comments to your responses, I just want to say that I'm not trying to just be anti everything you just metioned. If the deck is a real problem, I want it banned before someone starts playing it in my area. ;) So far I've come to understand some problems with the deck. Other things I'm not sure about yet and I would really like to hear your take on it.

@tony:
1. I get that the deck is capable of doing very powerful things very fast. I also get that my scapeshift comparison was wrong. Would you also consider this deck vastly different from TPS regarding it's ability to do unfair things (would you say that the artefact combo deck is more unfair/less fun to play against than TPS)? I ask this specifically because TPS is also a deck which is played way more in Berlin than anywhere else.

2. " Paul Templin is a completely different animal with this deck! Now you say "so its the player?" It is not the player, it is the deck, that gets flawlessly by this certain player."

I would like you to elaborate on this subject. Isn't it possible that Paul T. is just a very skilled combo deck player and once you'd ban the cards for his pet combo deck he would switch to TPS or another combo deck, master this deck over a certain time period as well and dominate the Berlin fmn scene again?

3. " He plays mishras workshop into double talisman into senseis divining top. You know what? From this spot, it is INCREDIBLY HARD for me to win this game of magic. And i dont win -  with the amount of mana he generates he has an insane of topdecks that I NEED TO COUNTER to not lose on the spot (time spiral, wheel, will, wargate, rings, staff, + about 10 other spells)."

This example confuses me. The problematic card here is workshop, ain't it? This start would still be possible after the banning of academy and/or fastbond, right? Or am I missing something?

4. "game two he goes fastbond turn 1 into 4 lands turn 1 into those rings of tralala. Turn 2 he plays memory jar cracks it gets academy and finds lands and ressources /tutors to infinite combo me Turn 2."

That is a sick start no one wants to play against. That was my first thought. Here's my second thought: 1 fastbond, 1 land to play it, 4 lands from fastbond, ring, memory jar. That's 8 cards. On turn two. So you can't tell me this a regular occurance. Even Paul T., who plays this deck very often, would admit that this exact combination of cards is unusual I believe. How often does this deck really go off in the early turns? I think that is really important to know. Turn 2 has to be magical christmasland. And if it does consistently goldfish turn 4, would you regard that as too fast?
Furthermore let's not forget that only the jar really wrecks you in this example. If you have spell Pierce, Wasteland, Thoughtseize, etc so he can't play the jar, he has just 5 Lands, one fastbond, one ring and no cards in his hands....
Still, 5 lands on turn one is sick and not something you'd want in the game. At the same time I see that there is a downside. You don't have many hand cards left. If you go 5 Lands on turn one there aren't many business spells left in your hand and you're in topdeck mode really quickly.

5."The cards that make this deck so busted are SUPER HARD TO INTERACT with. The academy that comes off the top or gets tutored out in response to my clique with crop rotation"

Weird to say you can't interact with this stuff and then immediately mention tutors (like crop rotation) which definetly can be interacted with. I play crop ro myself in my highlander deck and I have been wrecked pretty hard by mental misstep numerous times by now. Also this doesn't happen super early in the game (like crop ro turn one or something), does it? So there is time for you to get counterspell mana up.

6. "It WILL CREATE those 5-6 mana, sometimes 43-44 (untap academy twice etc, i saw him generate about 50 mana with it yesterday vs scapeshift) and there is NOTHING YOU CAN DO"

That's a really unpleasant situation. I guess you can stop untap shenanigans with wasteland or tec edge but you will not be able to stop the first activation. I don't actually know if there's a good way to compare it to another card. The closest thing would probably be gaea's cradle and elfs finishing with craterhoof. Both cards that fuel the land (academy/cradle) make mana on their own (talisman/elfs) and create an unfair situation. The problem being that creature removal (especially mass removal) is much more prevalent than artefact mass removal. Sounds unfair to me.
So as far as I understand it, he has to deploy some of his resources to ramping/lands and it is hard to interact with him while he is creating fast mana. so you have to hit his business spells tomake him pay for this. I get that you can't counter lands (I'm not stupid) and that interaction with his ramp cards is not possible (which should probably be a red flag on its own for the council), but he doesn't have a limitedless amount of payoff cards. I'm missing why it isn't possible to discard/counter those and make him rely on topdecks (like in the jar situation you described; counter his jar and he has only topdecks)
AGAIN: I'm not trying to undermine your opinion. It is valuable to me because I haven't played against this deck just once. So please stay calm.

@Nev: I get the pet deck thing. And think it is remarkable that even you, somebody who doesn't think is excessively strong, admits that it is capable of infinite mana as early as turn two. So it probably is right to ban it.  :-\


edit says: @tony: Look at vazdrus post -> These results are exactly why people question this decks power. If I would tell you about a deck that just about wins every fnm at my local shop and then doesn't win one of the big tournaments or perform well in the online league wouldn't you be suspicious as well?


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Vazdru on 08-01-2017, 04:37:58 PM
there was a survey at JK End-of-Year-Event
the results will be posted in this thread soon - actually we have 38 feedbacks
if you haven't had the chance to fill it out or forgot to give it back, you have still the chance to take part by using the online-version:

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Survey (Version 01/2017)


Name/Nick:

_________________________________



Where are you from?

_________________________________



How often do you play Highlander (highlandermagic.info rules)?

___   several times weekly

___   once per week

___   once per month
   
___   only bigger tournaments



How often have you played on a bigger Highlander-Event, like the HL-Cup or the MGM (including this one)?

___________



Which prices do you like to win on an event like this?

____ Strong and expensive Highlander cards like Workshop, Tabernacle, Mana Drain, Duals

____ Strong and expensive cards, which I can also use in the format ___________ like Snapcaster
          Mage, Tarmogoyf, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, Fetchlands

____ Vouchers for the store or Online Shops (e.g. JK Events, Magiccardmarked.de)

____ Prices don’t matter as long price payout is fair (good relation between value of price cards in
          comparison to expected sum of starting fee)


How do you rate the current Banned List on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?

__________
         

 
Which cards are missing on the Banned List and why?

   



Which cards should be deleted from the Banned List and why?

   


Thanks for your participation!

 


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: DarkLight on 08-01-2017, 06:12:38 PM
Survey (Version 01/2017)


Name/Nick:
Flo / DarkLight


Where are you from?
Heidelberg (Germany)


How often do you play Highlander (highlandermagic.info rules)?
Several times weekly, mostly online via Cockatrice


How often have you played on a bigger Highlander-Event, like the HL-Cup or the MGM (including this one)?
5-6 HL-Cups former GPs


Which prices do you like to win on an event like this?
Fair vouchers for Magiccardmarked.de


How do you rate the current Banned List on a scale from 1 to 10 (1=poor, 10=great)?
9

 
Which cards are missing on the Banned List and why?
Mana Drain: 2cc Ramp + Disruption (2 in 1). It allows you mostly to play turn 3, spell(s) for 5-6cc + you slowed down your opponent.
Oath of Druids: I want this card on the banlist since a few years now. Because its hard to handle and playable really early in the game so mostly there is no time given for the opponent to react. With creatures like the Eldrazis or Grislebrand the game could be pretty much over at turn ~3. In addition this card is at the moment mostly played by combodecks who use this card only to mill their deck into the graveyard which increases my wish for a ban even more.
Tolarian Academy: This card makes it more and more possible to play decks like 'Eggs' who are more like Solitaire decks with nearly no player interaction. So probably the only player who has fun with this kind of decks is the pilot himself.
   

Which cards should be deleted from the Banned List and why?
Stoneforge Mystic: Since this card was banned few more new tools to handle her or the equipments she provides were released, furthermore I think even a turn 2 'Stoneforge Mystic' into turn 3 'Batterskull', which was probalbly the main reason for the ban, wouldn't harm the format too much these days.

Imperial Seal: The Powerlevel of this card in comparison to some other cards in this format is kinda ridiculously low. The price question in my opinion is no reason to keep 'Imperial Seal' banned as long as cards like 'Mishra's Workshop', 'Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale' or 'Moat' are not banned.

Library of Alexandria: As the meta of the past few years showed us, that decks which can use this card at it's full power are not dominating at all so in my oponion it should be considered to unban this card, too.

Strip Mine / Umezawa's Jitte: Just because I would like to see how these "permanent bans" would perform in the meta today. They are on the banlist since forever (anno 2005) and never considered to be unbanned even since the meta changed dramatically since then.


Thanks for your participation!


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Vazdru on 11-03-2017, 12:44:57 PM
thanks to the 39 who took part on this small evaluation
here are the results:

average banned-list: 7,89 (results past years: 7,59 in 2016)  
(1 = poor / 10 = great)

   
   Ban:                  Unban:               
   Demonic Tutor      7      17,95%      Stoneforge Mystic      15      38,46%   
   Mana Drain      6      15,38%      Sensei's Divining Top      7      17,95%   
   Mystical Tutor      4      10,26%      Imperial Seal      6      15,38%   
   Tolarian Academy      4      10,26%      Gifts Ungiven      4      10,26%   
   Oath of Druids      4      10,26%      Entomb      3      7,69%   
   Treasure Cruise      4      10,26%      Library of Alexandria      3      7,69%   
   Dig Through Time      3      7,69%      Umezawa's Jitte      2      5,13%   
   Tainted Pact      3      7,69%      Natural Order      2      5,13%   
   True-Name Nemesis      2      5,13%      Strip Mine      1      2,56%   
   Bazaar of Baghdad      2      5,13%      Birthing Pod      1      2,56%   
   Yawgmoth's Will      2      5,13%                     
   Price of Progess      1      2,56%                     
   Scapeshift      1      2,56%                     
   Blood Moon      1      2,56%                     
   Mystic Confluence      1      2,56%                     
   Academy Rector      1      2,56%                     
                              
   
                                 
   
   Banned-List               
   10      2      5,13%   
   9      7      17,95%   
   8      18      46,15%   
   7      5      12,82%   
   6            0,00%   
   5      4      10,26%   
   4      1      2,56%   
   3      2      5,13%   
   2            0,00%   
   1            0,00%   
   -            0,00%   
         39         
               


additional:

source: Facebook

community-poll at Highlander Magic Europe
as of 17/03/10

which cards should be banned:
1.None46 votes
2.Demonic Tutor31 votes
3.Mana Drain25 votes
4.Tainted Pact15 votes
5.Dig Through Time12 votes
6.Tolarian Academy10 votes
7.Oath of Druids9 votes
8.Mystical Tutor8 votes
9.True-Name Nemesis, Fastbond, Treasure Cruise each 6 votes

which cards should be unbanned:
1.Stoneforge Mystic41 votes
2.None26 votes
3.Gifts Ungiven25 votes
4.Entomb19 votes
5.Grindstone16 votes
6.Imperial Seal8 votes
7.Vampiric Tutor6 votes
                           
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

2016   

               
   Ban:                  Unban:               
   Natural Order      12      32,43%      Stoneforge Mystic      6      16,22%   
   Sensei's Divining Top      12      32,43%      Gifts Ungiven      6      16,22%   
   Mana Drain      10      27,03%      Entomb      3      8,11%   
   Demonic Tutor      9      24,32%      Library of Alexandria      3      8,11%   
   Mystical Tutor      7      18,92%      Umezawa's Jitte      2      5,41%   
   True-Name Nemesis      6      16,22%      Survival of the Fittest      2      5,41%   
   Dig Through Time      2      5,41%      Imperial Seal      2      5,41%   
   Price of Progress      2      5,41%      Birthing Pod      2      5,41%   
   Tolarian Academy      2      5,41%      Grindstone      1      2,70%   
   Yawgmoth's Will      2      5,41%      Balance      1      2,70%   
   Blood Moon      1      2,70%                  
   Fetchlands      1      2,70%                     
   Gaddock Teeg      1      2,70%                     
   Intuition      1      2,70%                     
   Mishra's Workshop      1      2,70%                     
   Tarmogoyf      1      2,70%                     
   Treasure Cruise      1      2,70%                     
   Wasteland      1      2,70%                     
   
               
@ MGM

Ban         Unban      
Fastbond   9   40.91%     Stoneforge Mystic   10   45.45%  
Tolarian Academy   8   36.36%     Entomb   6   27.27%  
Demonic Tutor   5   22.73%     Gifts Ungiven   6   27.27%  
Mana Drain   4   18.18%     Imperial Seal   2   9.09%  
Oath of Druids   3   13.64%     Birthing Pod   1   4.55%  
Mystical Tutor   3   13.64%     Chaos Orb   1   4.55%  
Sensei's Divining Top   2   9.09%     Grindstone   1   4.55%  
Yawgmoth's will   2   9.09%     Umezawa's Jitte   1   4.55%  
Natural Order   2   9.09%     Library of Alexandria    1   4.55%  
Ban the Reserved List   1   4.55%     Mind Twist   1   4.55%  
Tainted Pact   1   4.55%     Vampiric Tutor   1   4.55%  
True-Name Nemesis   14.55%  

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

2014   

   
   Ban:                  Unban:               
   Mystical Tutor      11      33,33%      Stoneforge Mystic      6      18,18%   
   Mana Drain      10      30,30%      Entomb      5      15,15%   
   Oath of Druids      9      27,27%      Natural Order      5      15,15%   
   Demonic Tutor      9      27,27%      Fastbond      5      15,15%   
   True-Name Nemesis      5      15,15%      Umezawa's Jitte      4      12,12%   
   Price of Progress      5      15,15%      Gifts Ungiven      2      6,06%   
   Sensei's Divining Top      4      12,12%      Vampiric Tutor      2      6,06%   
   Tolarian Academy      1      3,03%      Survival of the Fittest      2      6,06%   
   Mishra's Workshop      1      3,03%      Library of Alexandria      1      3,03%   
   Helm of Obedience      1      3,03%      Imperial Seal      1      3,03%   
   Blood Moon      1      3,03%      Birthing Pod      1      3,03%   
   Yawgmoth's Will      1      3,03%                     
   Worldly Tutor      1      3,03%                     
   Enlightened Tutor      1      3,03%                     
   Fetchlands      1      3,03%                     
   Tarmogoyf      1      3,03%                     
   Sword of the Meek      1      3,03%                     
   Tabernacle       1      3,03%                     
   
                                 

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

2013

   Ban:                  Unban:               
   True-Name Nemesis      24      44,44%      Entomb      11      20,37%   
   Oath of Druids      17      31,48%      Mystical Tutor      9      16,67%   
   Mana Drain      13      24,07%      Gifts Ungiven      8      14,81%   
   Tolarian Academy      10      18,52%      Natural Order      7      12,96%   
   Demonic Tutor      9      16,67%      Stoneforge Mystic      5      9,26%   
   Sensei's Divining Top      9      16,67%      Library of Alexandria      5      9,26%   
   Mishra's Workshop      6      11,11%      Umezawa's Jitte      5      9,26%   
   Wasteland      3      5,56%      Vampiric Tutor      4      7,41%   
   Price of Progress      3      5,56%      Imperial Seal      2      3,70%   
   Life from the Loam      3      5,56%      Grindstone      2      3,70%   
   Dark Depths      2      3,70%      Fastbond      2      3,70%   
   Back to Basics      2      3,70%      Birthing Pod      2      3,70%   
   Blood Moon      2      3,70%      Mana Vault      2      3,70%   
   Worldly Tutor      1      1,85%      Mind Twist      1      1,85%   
   Yawgmoth's Will      1      1,85%      Survival of the Fittest      1      1,85%   
   Intuition      1      1,85%      Strip Mine      1      1,85%   
   Deathrite Shaman      1      1,85%      Falling Star      1      1,85%   
   Craterhoof Behemoth      1      1,85%      Sol Ring      1      1,85%   
   Enlightened Tutor      1      1,85%                     
   Fetchlands      1      1,85%                     
   Tarmogoyf      1      1,85%                     
   Sword of the Meek      1      1,85%                     
   Hermit Druid      1      1,85%                     
   Wheel of Fortune      1      1,85%                     
                                 
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

2012

   
   Ban:                  Unban:               
   Birthing Pod      20      46,51%      Life from the Loam      11      25,58%   
   Stoneforge Mystic      13      30,23%      Yawgmoth's Will      9      20,93%   
   Sensei's Divining Top      7      16,28%      Gifts Ungiven      8      18,60%   
   Mana Drain      6      13,95%      Dread Return      8      18,60%   
   Batterskull      4      9,30%      Enlightened Tutor      8      18,60%   
   Mishra's Workshop      4      9,30%      Library of Alexandria      5      11,63%   
   Worldly Tutor      4      9,30%      Mystical Tutor      5      11,63%   
   Jace, the Mind Sculptor      3      6,98%      Lion's Eye Diamond      5      11,63%   
   Demonic Tutor      3      6,98%      Entomb      4      9,30%   
   Aether Vial      2      4,65%      Umezawa's Jitte      3      6,98%   
   Eladamri's Call      2      4,65%      Balance      2      4,65%   
   Intuition      2      4,65%      Sol Ring      1      2,33%   
   Moat      1      2,33%      Survival of the Fittest      1      2,33%   
   Crumbling Sanctuary      1      2,33%      Tinker      1      2,33%   
   Channel      1      2,33%      Strip Mine      1      2,33%   
   Wheel of Fortune      1      2,33%                     
   Wasteland      1      2,33%                     
   Fetchlands      1      2,33%                     


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: berlinballz on 21-03-2017, 12:36:38 AM
Hey, thanks for all the effort. Just a question and what I understand from reading this.

Do you happen to also have the no-ban/no-unban numbers for those 39 participants as well? That would also be interesting.

What I get out of these numbers is this:

- great result on the ban-list rating, nice job council, community seems happy (almost an 8, very good)
- new bans seem absolutely unwanted by community, by a pretty huge margin, also great
- community wants Stoneforge Mystic, which I think might make Jeskai too good, but oh well






Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: derStefan82 on 21-03-2017, 09:06:20 AM
I would read it pretty similar.

Most people are really happy with the format.
No need for bannings. The only card that stands out is stoneforge
with a much higher rating then all other cards on both polls.
Maybe people want another weapon against rdw.
Format anyway is much faster now.

I hope demonic tutor will not be touched.
There are similar amounts of people for banning it then for unbanning top.
And more people for banning nothing.

As I already stated several times, this will weaken specific brewes and combo a lot.
In terms of speed you already have a hard time with combo against Aggro
nowadays and I think aggressiv decks should fear combo by nature.

One popular  reason through the last banning seasons for the demonic bannings was
weakening Blood. Here the meta has adjusted and we are far away from blood dominated.

At the moment a whide range of decks is playable successfully without the one deck people
Constantly complaining about and beating everything.

I really enjoy highlander right now, thanks for your good work.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: Vazdru on 21-03-2017, 02:29:51 PM
Do you happen to also have the no-ban/no-unban numbers for those 39 participants as well? That would also be interesting.

No sorry, I haven't.
I've already tinkered to redesign the questionaire and will probably do so.

I will change this part:

"Which cards are missing on the Banned List and why?
Which cards should be deleted from the Banned List and why?"

to:

"This are the current cards on unban- and ban-watchlist. Please vote (X) for ban or unban:

      
         BAN      UNBAN      WHY (optional)   
   Demonic Tutor                     
   Dig Through Time                     
   Fastbond                     
   Mana Drain                     
   Mystical Tutor                     
   Oath of Druids                     
   Tainted Pact                     
   Tolarian Academy                     
   Treasure Cruise                     
   Yawgmoth's Will                     
   Entomb                     
   Grindstone                     
   Imperial Seal                     
   Stoneforge Mystic                     
   Vampiric Tutor                     
                     

Which other cards are missing on the Banned List and why?
Which other cards should be deleted from the Banned List and why?"

I guess this will be more meaningful.


Title: Re: Poll / Opinions etc
Post by: berlinballz on 22-03-2017, 09:54:32 PM
It still might help to include an item such as "Should there be changes or are you fine with the ban list as it is?" Just so you don't feel stupid for not filling anything out. Also writing "Unban" next to a card that is not banned seems confusing, maybe?