Hey out there,
there will be maybe some changes on banlist at Oct. 1st.
I would appreciate some feedback of the community if you are satisfied with the current setting or would like to have some changes (and why).
The cards to vote for:
BAN ? Y/N
Demonic Tutor
Fastbond
Mana Drain
Mishra's Workshop
Mystical Tutor
Oath of Druids
Tainted Pact
Timetwister
Tolarian Academy
Yawgmoth's Will
Unban Y/N
Gifts Ungiven
Stoneforge Mystic
Unban:
Natural Order
Divining top
Stoneforge mystic
Ban:
Tolarian Academy
Yawgmoths will
Fastbond
Ban:
Tolarian Academy
Fastbond
Unban:
Stoneforge Mystic
Senseis Divining Top
Ban:
Tainted Pact (Simply because its a second Demonic Tutor for the best deck in the meta. Atm we dont see many 4cblood lists, imo this is because the good players with this deck are testing some other builds. And especially in Mannheim 4cblood is at an alltime low because everybody is playing Ux decks.
Unban:
Nothing
On the Ban Watchlist:
Treasure Cruise (With "theone" behind us, and 3 more big tournaments this year coming up [the one autumn, Maintal Sideevent, HL Cup end of the year]. I would like to see if Ux decks can dominate as some people think, and if it is the case, TC has to go.
Off the Unban Watchlist:
Stoneforge Mystic (If this thing gets unbanned, we will see an instant reban like we did with Natural Order. Its just too strong, autoinclude in too many decks, boring and repetative games focusing around SM and the tutored sword.)
Quote from: tonytahiti on 05-09-2016, 09:18:38 AM
Ban:
Tolarian Academy
Fastbond
Unban:
Stoneforge Mystic
Senseis Divining Top
Why?
Quote from: W0lf on 04-09-2016, 11:46:30 AM
Unban:
Natural Order
Divining top
Stoneforge mystic
Ban:
Tolarian Academy
Yawgmoths will
Fastbond
Why?
BAN ? Y/N
Demonic Tutor N - 2 mana sorcery speed tutor, i think being sorcery makes this card fair
Fastbond N - fast mana is dangerous, but the cost of having a land heavy deck/hand is fine.
Mana Drain Y - i would love to see another 2 mana hard counter, but mana drain is more of a premium ramp spell
Mishra's Workshop N - fast mana is dangerous, but the cost of having a artifact heavy deck/hand is fine.
Mystical Tutor N - Instant tutors are dangerous, but the card disadvantage makes this card fair
Oath of Druids N - It would destroy a lot of archetypes which are strong but beatable
Tainted Pact Y - 2 mana instant speed tutor, i think being instant makes this card unfair
Timetwister N - This card is only relevant for combo decks, as long as not all tournaments are dominated by combo decks there is no need to ban the card
Tolarian Academy N - fast mana is dangerous, but the cost of having a artifact heavy deck/hand is fine.
Yawgmoth's Will N - This card is only relevant for combo decks, as long as not all tournaments are dominated by combo decks there is no need to ban the card
Unban Y/N
Gifts Ungiven N - An instant tutor for two cards is too strong, I always think of searching for Treasure Cruise/Dig through Time + two cards you might need
Stoneforge Mystic Y/N - not sure with this card, I would love to play with it but at the same time I fear seeing it and batterskull in every game till it gets banned again
For me the format seems pretty fine at the moment, there are different / diversive top 8 in all major tournaments.
I think Ux took the place of Blood in being the most played / successful deck overall.
Insert Quote
BAN ? Y/N
Demonic Tutor N - this makes "non-standard" decks playable, there is no real replacement for those decks that have to deal with decks killing you in 4 turns (RDW, fast Aggro)
Fastbond N - requires really special setting, almost only used in combo shells but at the moment don't see that it's over the edge
Mana Drain N - could be a potential ban candidate if you would like to weaken blue decks as it's one of the strongest cards for blue control mages
Mishra's Workshop N - requires special setting, is there forever and never had the feeling it's too strong
Mystical Tutor N - personally I like having this in the format because the cheap counters make combo playable and not auto loose because of the speed of the format (similar to DT)
Oath of Druids N - it would destroy a lot of archetypes which are strong but beatable and it's good against creature strategies which are getting better and better (there are also many more good solutions meanwhile)
Tainted Pact N - not amazing in combo because of the exiling, kind of random to ban it because of blood which is anyway not dominating right now, seems like a fair card in general
Timetwister N - This card is only relevant for combo decks, as long as not all tournaments are dominated by combo decks there is no need to ban the card
Tolarian Academy N - fast mana is dangerous, but the cost of having a artifact heavy deck/hand is fine.
Yawgmoth's Will N - This card is only relevant for combo decks, as long as not all tournaments are dominated by combo decks there is no need to ban the card
Unban Y/N
Gifts Ungiven N - my assumption is that for 4 mana it's pretty mana intensive, if you look at vintage everyone thought that after unrestriction a lot of gift decks will appear but in the meantime the formats all got faster, on the other hand you have the Unburial Rites combo in addition so there is quite some risk here.
Stoneforge Mystic N - would like to play it but fear another story like Natural Order here
I'm feeling a bit like in Eldrazi-Winter at the moment... Play UR Mirror or loose!
Since some players in Mannheim have updated their UR-lists this is the most powerful deck in the format.
Even the proud inventor of 4c Blood plays it (even though he hates the deck) because it is too strong!
I have tried for at least a month to bring any builds that could stand a chance against it and the best result i could come up with was about 50/50 with a bant-tempo deck fully teched against UR.
Fact is: this deck has NO bad matchups. at worst 50/50 whitch leads towards a meta where everyone is playing U/X control and midrange will vanish completely.
The list of the 30 most played cards at the "The One" highlander tournament had only 5 non-blue cards on it which is also a strong sign that blue is currently much too strong!
BAN ? Y/N
Demonic Tutor - N- Combo is not dominating so remain on watchlist
Fastbond - N- Combo is not dominating so remain on watchlist
Mana Drain - y - the strongest blue card atm wich can turn around a game very easyly by providing too much tempo for the control player
Mishra's Workshop - N- Combo is not dominating so remain on watchlist
Mystical Tutor - N - has mostly 2 targets: mana drain and Tresure Cruise those are the random game winners. not the tutor
Oath of Druids - N - hasn't seen much play in the last time anyway
Tainted Pact - N - it should remain on the watchlist but atm blood is not the deck crushing the meta so no need for ban right now
Timetwister - N- Combo is not dominating so remain on watchlist
Tolarian Academy - N- Combo is not dominating so remain on watchlist
Yawgmoth's Will - N- Combo is not dominating so remain on watchlist
Treasure Cruise and Mana Drain are too Strong in the current Meta, leading to dominating 2colored nonbasic-hate decks, smothering any cool 3+colour builds people might come up with by denying those decks to "play Magic", making the meta very one-sided, boring and frustrating.
Unban Y/N
Gifts Ungiven - N - a better Dig through time which costs only 4 without delve. above that it feeds the strongest decks in the current meta
Stoneforge Mystic - N - allthough it could give midrange a boost the games would become one sided and swingy like with Natural Order
Hey, me again, with the yearly announcement (it's always the same): Just because there is a shift in a small meta game DO NOT cry for bans right away. We had it in Berlin with one Artifacts-Genius and it's just wrong. A 35 player tournament isn't the Meta, look outside your box, try beating a deck for more than a few weeks, build to beat it and consider that Highlander exists in many cities and countries. Meta games shift. It's totally normal. Interesting side note: When Mannheim played 4C Blood Mirrors for years and won GPs with it no one in Mannheim EVER asked for bans to stop Blood. Now someone finally figured out how to punish Blood and you feel the need to ban all really good blue cards? UR has not proven to be a problem anywhere else. It hasn't even been very good. It loses to a lot of decks. A well built three color-deck which is designed to not fold to random Back to Basics and Blood Moon outqualities UR all day. Imho. UR has a ways to go to prove it's overpowered. Blue is the best color in eternal formats, like it or hate it. I heard green is good in standard right now.
Highlander is about using all cards ever printed to beat all cards ever printed.
We need less bans and more games. That's all.
I'm not gonna make a list. Nothing needs to be banned. There is 0 consensus right now among the Metas on anything being too good. Which is good. UR ... too good. I really didn't see that one coming.
If you think UR is the best deck in the format, you have no Idea. I know this sounds harsh but its the truth. UR is so far from being the best deck your post reads like a joke. Again, sounding harsh, again, only the truth.
UR has tons of absolutely horrendous matchups, including RDW (estimate 39% to 61%, no lifegain, no fast clock, land hate is dead), including uw tempo, including uw control, including tuned and well played sultai lists, including artifacts. Artifacts loses against UR only if b2b or
blood moon is coming down or an aggressive start is followed up by price. chances are this wont be the case (looking at one game). Pls stop referring to Blood Moon and 2B2 as end all cards, that ruin your day. Those cards in UR are not tutorable and even if we include Magus only every 33th card is actually capable of preventing your opponent to cast spells. Chances are that you do not draw one of those in one particular game (including fetchlands, and thinning: yes).
If you feel like Eldrazi Winter, work on your deckbuilding and your playskill. UR won two tournaments (both small, in highlander there all only small tournaments, but those mentioned are like..particularly small..what is it..19 people and 37? in the grand scheme of things, this means literally nothing, it just means variance is a thing in magic. big surprise there).
I cant read those statements because it only focuses on "i lost to that, x blood player even plays it now". Tell me how UR shits its pants when smiter comes down turn 2 and looks at 2 counter spells and lighting bolt in their hand. every 4 toughness creature is a nightmare. you think ur is a better deck in a big tourney than jeskai? this is laughable. i take the better, way better, card quality over that every33thcardislandhate aspect all day ever day. UR is absolutely amazing if you draw blood moon and b2b every game and play vs 3c deck every game: yes. That is not reality. Apart from the land hate UR is an underpowered deck that has bad removal, lacks flexible answers to different kinds of permanents (enchantments, pw). Its good at handling things on the stack, agreed but a good player is very ready to expose this weakness.
I am baffled to read this statement. UR: the best deck? where the fuck are you playing? jeezus.
Note to history: The fact that the last two post almost say the same thing and were posted amost at the exact same time without either writer knowing about the other is amazing even if you don't agree with the content. Just saying. ::)
Note to history: The fact that tonytahiti summoned a wall of text about someone explaining his ban/unban decisions, but is unable too explain his own is amazing... no wait that's pretty sad. ::)
I think Ux is at the moment the best meta game call, but for sure not the best deck in the format.
QuoteEven the proud inventor of 4c Blood plays it (even though he hates the deck) because it is too strong!
It is too strong in the meta that you expect in a bigger tournament than a FNM, I would love to hear MaQi's opinion ;)
Thanks for (nearly) all the kind feedback on my thoughts.
It's true that i only have a meta game perspective of my home town (whitch happens to be MaQi's too)
but that's what this threat is all about, right? collecting diffrent player's oppinions from all countrys and citys to see if anything sticks out everywhere at the same time.
So i gave my 2 cents.
I would love to hear MaQi's oppinion on our current UR build ;)
All mentioned cards have been the subject of discussion for years. I can't think of any new arguments on why they should be banned/unbanned so my earlier statement should be enough.
If not: Q_Q
My Ban Wish:
Mana Drain: 2cc Ramp + Disruption (2 in 1). It allows you mostly to play turn 3, spell(s) for 5-6cc + you slowed down your opponent.
Oath of Druids: I am one of these players who wanted this card on the banlist for years. Because its hard to handle and playable really early in the game so mostly no time given for the opponent to react. With creatures like the Eldrazis or Grislebrand the game could be pretty much over at turn ~3.
Since this card is at the moment mostly played by combodecks increases my wish for a ban right here.
Tolarian Academy: I think this card makes it more and more possible to play decks like 'Eggs' who are more like Solitaire decks with nearly no player interaction. So probably the only player who has fun with this deck is the pilot himself.
My Unban Wish:
Stoneforge Mystic: Since this card was banned few more new tools to handle her or the equipments she provides were released. I think even a turn 2 'Stoneforge Mystic' into turn 3 'Batterskull', which was probalbly the main reason for the ban, wouldn't harm the format too much these days.
BAN ? Y/N
Demonic Tutor N. I would still keep this as iconic card. I would leave it be because this is one of the ways some interesting and not so good decks can still competete against decks that are actually well tuned.
Fastbond N. I know what this card does in Vintage but I have never seen a player to abuse it in this way in Highlander. Unless this starts to get common I would keep the card unbanned
Mana Drain N. Even though I want to vote No, this card actually can be a really huge swing for the Mana Drain player. I've won so many games just because of the additional mana that I can actually agree with anyone who says that the card should be banned. In our community the card was well accepted so for that reason I still want to keep it unbanned.
Mishra's Workshop N. This card in my opinion is very fringe. It would most probably be played by staxx or artifact base combo. T1 Trinisphere if these two cards can show up together might be a problem but how often will this happen? Often Workshop comes into play when there is already many other sources of mana. If it hits the table turn 1 it may and it may not win the game.
Mystical Tutor N. I would vote no, since the card alone does not kill. If this card searches for the same card always, the tutored card might be reviewed instead. In general I don't mind seeing this card go though.
Oath of Druids N/Y. I'm not sure about this one. I never died to Oath even when this deck was around. But that was mostly because I could deal with it often. Being in different position I would most probably complain.
Tainted Pact Y. This card is instant demonic tutor in a sense and I always frowned when I saw the card being played because it meant instant death. It doesn't matter if it was me casting it or my opponent.
Timetwister N. unless combo becomes prevalent, I wouldn't ban the card.
Tolarian Academy N. unless combo becomes prevalent, I wouldn't ban the card. This card requires the player to play many artifacts and thus won't see play much anyway.
Yawgmoth's Will N. unless combo becomes prevalent, I wouldn't ban the card.
Unban Y/N
Gifts Ungiven N. I think unbanning this is rather dangerous but I may be wrong. I don't have enough experience with that but I have enough experience with Loam and Intuition. If this card gets unbanned I would find a way how to abuse it and I think many people would do the same.
Stoneforge Mystic N. Honestly, banning of this card made me leave the Highlander community. Since then I moved to play Vintage instead where I wasn't really limited by banlist that would change once in a while. After a very long time though of facing Stoneforge Mystics in other formats I finally understood the reasoning behind banning this card and I think of it when I kill someone with Sword of Fire and Ice or Batterskull that comes into play early. On the other hand there are more ways how to deal with Batterskull now. The question is, would people running white play SFM package? I would say yes. I still miss my little Kor... So in the end I would keep the card banned so it wouldn't need to be rebanned.
Someone mentioned Natural Order. I'm happily killing people with it on Magic Online now and I can see that this card feels like being from another world. It just wins the games too often. Even if the meta is Ux now...I would keep it banned.
BAN ? Y/N
Demonic Tutor - N- Combo is not dominating...Banning combo cards leads to narrow meta.
Fastbond - N- Combo is not dominating, banning combo cards leads to narrow meta.
Mana Drain - N - Blue decks haven't been dominating...this would weaken control and combo too much.
Mishra's Workshop - N- Combo is not dominating so remain on watchlist. Also, banning this would lead to more narrow meta.
Mystical Tutor - N - Another card that would weaken control and combo if banned.
Oath of Druids - N - You need to build your whole deck around this card...Also, combo hasnt been dominating.
Tainted Pact - N - This is a hard one...it's instant-speed demonic tutor. Probably does best in 4c/jund decks. I still dont think it's too big of a problem.
Timetwister - N- Combo is not dominating...Banning combo cards leads to narrow meta.
Tolarian Academy - N- Combo is not dominating...Banning combo cards leads to narrow meta.
Yawgmoth's Will - N- Combo is not dominating...Banning combo cards leads to narrow meta.
Unban Y/N
Gifts Ungiven -N- It is like super-Intuition and when loam is unbanned, this should stay banned
Stoneforge Mystic -N- This card just is too strong with cards like batterskull or or sword of fire and ice in deck. It was banned for a good reason.
How I see it is that there are a group of people who would like everybody to play only creature-based goodstuff decks (4c being the most succesful one) and want to ban all decent combo and control cards. That leads to narrow meta, which is boring and not good for the format. Is it a catastrophe if combo or control wins a tournament or two? 4c blood has/had been dominating and winning tournaments for who knows how long, and it didnt get any of its cards banned...why is that?
Diverse meta is good for the format
Quote4c blood has/had been dominating and winning tournaments for who knows how long, and it didnt get any of its cards banned...why is that
Let's say 4c is still dominating the format, which card would you ban to weaken a deck that plays only the best cards out of four colors? ;)
BAN ? Y/N
Demonic Tutor -N- I don't see how this would be a bigger problem now compared how is was before.
Fastbond -N- This is often a useless card and needs real good starting hand with it. Yes, it's a 3-card combo too. Really bad topdeck draw.
Mana Drain -N- I dont really currently see much reason to weaken control and combo decks.
Mishra's Workshop -N- It's a strong card, but only in specificly built deck.
Mystical Tutor -N- This is probably at its finest with miracle cards like terminus...but again, there's no reason to ban these cards and leave control with no weapons...top already got banned.
Oath of Druids -Y- This is a 1 card combo and a bit stupid in my opinion. Of course you need some deckbuilding around this, but still.
Tainted Pact -N- This is better than demonic tutor if you're one specific card away from winning, but otherwise requires skill to use and exiling cards from your library can really backfire later in game.
Timetwister -N- There's no reason to ban combo cards. Combo is far from dominating the format.
Tolarian Academy -N- Artifact combo is not strong enough for this to get banned.
Yawgmoth's Will -N- This card is only relevant for combo decks, as long as not all tournaments are dominated by combo decks there is no need to ban the card.
Unban Y/N
Gifts Ungiven -Y- I might not have enough experience with this card, but I think it could be unbanned and maybe create some new stylish decks.
Stoneforge Mystic -N- This is too strong card that would be autoinclude in almost every deck that plays white.
QuoteMana Drain -N- I dont really currently see much reason to weaken control and combo decks.
QuoteStoneforge Mystic -N- This is too strong card that would be autoinclude in almost every deck that plays white.
I see Mana Drain as an autoinclude in almost every deck that plays blue. The ban of Mana Drain would remove a powerful card out of the format and would weaken blue decks in general not only control and combo.
Thanks for your feedback.
I wonder noone named Demonic Tutor for banning, same is true for Mystical Tutor - imo the two best tutor-spells available in our format.
The meta seems diverse, there are lots of archetypes actually which have the chance to take a top spot in the field. Nevertheless the powerlevel obviously rising steadily with each set being printed. My approach to start some kind of counter movement would be to remove the best tutors. That's why I voted to ban Demonic & Mystical Tutor like Tainted Pact as well. On the other hand i maybe have to reconsider this approach as the powercreep do not vanish by removing those tutors, it just become more random if you get/face it during the game or not, which do not improve the game experience much in this aspect necessarily. Furthermore the community seems fine with those tutors ...maybe because they make potentially a contribution to diversifacte the meta.
Anyhow the banned-list seems not too bad actually measured by the feedback I've received in the last days. Personally I would give Stoneforge Mystic a chance again, I guess its impact isn't that immense anymore which lead to its ban some time ago but it is not a heartfelt wish.
Quote from: Vazdru on 29-09-2016, 08:40:00 PM
Nevertheless the powerlevel obviously rising steadily with each set being printed.
This is indeed true, but the decks that get the most out of it are 4cblood and other goodstuff piles. Very few of the new cards can be used in combo decks for example.
I did a quick look in the last five 4cblood decks (a deck that uses best cards available) posted im Mtgpulse. These following cards in those decks were printed
just during the last two years:Anafenza, the Foremost
Den Protector
Dromoka's Command
Eldricth Evolution
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Hissing Quagmire
Kolaghan's Command
Liliana, the Last Hope
Nissa, voice of Zendikar
Painful Truths
Siege Rhino
Sylvan Advocate
Shambling vent
Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Tireless Tracker
(17 cards total)
Then I did a look in some Artifact-combo
and Eggs lists. These are the following cards used in those decks
combined that were printed in the past two years:
Dig Trough time
Ghirapur Æther Grid
Trail of Evidence
(3 cards total)
And when we look at the watch list, it mostly contains just combo cards. Do you see where im getting with this post?
Good tutors in my opinion are needed to be able to compete with fast aggressive decks.
They are absolutely required in a lot "non standard" builds that would be otherwise unplayable.
URx doesn't need them, goodstuff can replace them so I think they are totally fine and helpfull for a good meta.
I agree on the tutor topic.
The tutors (Demonic, Mystical, Tained Pact) are overpowered by themselves but are required to compete with Combo against Goodstuff.
I think these Tutors are replaceable in Goodstuff but not in the focused decks.
Some other thoughts on borderline cards:
Mana Drain - overpowered but a required hard counter for control decks (could be banned if WotC offers more reliable 2CC counters in future, which will most likely never happen)
Oath of Druids - overpowered but creates a restrictive archetype. I am biased here but I think we should keep this archetype alive for now (I still fear creatureless/Griselbrand versions)
Sensei´s Divining Top - A powerfull but not too powerfull card which is needed for Combo/Control decks to fight good stuff. I don´t accept the time issue argument.
Stoneforge Mystic - A card which goes into all white decks (which should be no real argument), I am unsure if it is "fair" enough to come back. A sneaked in Batterskull is still very powerfull.
Tolarian Academy - too much uncounterable (often recurring) mana explosion, even if restricted to artifacts.
My vote:
Ban - Tolarian Academy
Unban - SDT
Unsure - Stoneforge Mystic
I agree with the above posters - Goodstuff decks just play good cards. Ban a tutor and combo gets hit 10x harder than a goodstuff pile because the goodstuff pile just wants good cards, combo wants very specific effects. Without tutors you're drawing random Nantuko Husks and that won't win you any games against pure raw quality. Realistically threatening to kill does.
With that:
Unban: Natural Order
Ban: Primeval Titan
The rationale for NO ban is always NO=>Titan, and how it sees play in Goodstuff decks as a blowout play. So eliminate that specific play. Goodstuff isn't going to run random uncastables the way combo decks do and if they do it's much more of a cost than running a top-of-the-curve Prime Time, and Ramp decks have more than enough bombs to choose from. Losing Titan hurts both combo and ramp, but far less than losing NO hurts Hulk decks for example.